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bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to Jackorama

Re: [Serious] As Long As You're Getting An Education...

said by Jackorama:

Had he not been in school, he would have been burdened with a criminal record.

Unless you've got information that wasn't in the article, that is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters...


Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
said by bt:

said by Jackorama:

Had he not been in school, he would have been burdened with a criminal record.

That is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters, after all...

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope. At one of the places my husband worked there was a worker who was a great and friendly worker. He was also a serial rapist who ended back in jail after a rape of a stranger. No one at his work knew and would have even guessed that the guy was a rapist.

There was, a couple of years ago, a guy about 18 or so in Kingston, who was getting young girls to perform sex acts on the internet. He was living at home and his parents were very shocked when he was caught. His parents had no clue.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
said by Jackorama:

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope.

You're right that it's sometimes flawed. Sometimes.

Sometimes it isn't.

I noticed that neither of your examples mention a judge and prosecution agreeing with the character witnesses, as may be the case here.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to bt
said by bt:

Unless you've got information that wasn't in the article, that is purely your own assumption. Couldn't possibly have been the long list of character witness letters...

meh...i'm sure Russell Williams could have produced a long list of character witness letters too.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
said by dirtyjeffer:

meh...i'm sure Russell Williams could have produced a long list of character witness letters too.

Quite possibly. And I'm not saying it was the reason, only it could be. Whatever the reason for the conditional dropping of the criminal record in this case, the basis for it was a joint submission by the Crown and the defence. So if it was the reason, would the Crown have agreed with Russell Williams' theoretical character witnesses? Would the judge?

The "This really bad-case example could have done the same thing!" argument is intellectually dishonest. It assumes the worst case scenario simply must be true when it rarely is.


Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
reply to bt
said by bt:

said by Jackorama:

Your right, but character witness from places like work, teachers, etc. can only talk about his character within that scope.

You're right that it's sometimes flawed. Sometimes.

Sometimes it isn't.

I noticed that neither of your examples mention a judge and prosecution agreeing with the character witnesses, as may be the case here.

I don't think character witness would work in the examples I gave. The rapist went to his parole worker right after it happened and confessed. The second one was caught red handed.

When I was first reading the story, I really thought this was a kid that used some poor judgement. Then when reading about him being angry about his girlfriend borrowing notes from a male student and about deleting the pictures from her phone of the marks he left on her, that becomes a control issue that many battered women have happen to them.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
said by Jackorama:

When I was first reading the story, I really thought this was a kid that used some poor judgement. Then when reading about him being angry about his girlfriend borrowing notes from a male student and about deleting the pictures from her phone of the marks he left on her, that becomes a control issue that many battered women have happen to them.

Which is why he's also been directed to attend and complete the Partner Abuse Response Program and any other assessment or program his probation supervisor orders.

Did you also miss the fact the victim said she wants to get back with him? Sounds like you harbour more negative feelings toward the guy than the victim herself.

There's something very wrong here, but I don't think it's "the system".


Jackorama

join:2008-05-23
Kingston, ON
It's funny in a way that people think because one attends and completes the Partner Abuse Response Program that they are cured. Sometimes it works if the person really wants it too and sometimes it doesn't, but they still completed it.


urbanriot
Premium
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Canada
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reply to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

Did you also miss the fact the victim said she wants to get back with him?

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Jackorama
said by Jackorama:

It's funny in a way that people think because one attends and completes the Partner Abuse Response Program that they are cured. Sometimes it works if the person really wants it too and sometimes it doesn't, but they still completed it.

It's also funny how when people have no argument they make up false statements which they then proceed to counter.

The situation you describe is EXACTLY why the probation supervisor is given the authority to order other programs and treatment, which was already addressed in my response..

said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

Oh yeah? Do they also almost always try to get their abusing spouse charged with imaginary offences, like this one did? Do they also almost always cooperate with the cops to get their spouse charged and convicted before going back to them?

I guess that's what you get for studying the deep psychology of spousal abuse an hour a week for 20 weeks a year on Saturday night from home. Did you get University credits for that?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.

graniterock
Premium
join:2003-03-14
London, ON
Reviews:
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said by urbanriot:

... have you ever encountered a beaten woman? They almost always defend the man that beats them. I guarantee you if you watch an episode of cops that you'll probably see that scenario play out. Every cop has seen it. It's normal.

said by urbanriot:

No, unfortunately they don't hand out university credits while experiencing real life, which usually comes after you spend all your time and money learning about theory.

1. Cops is an entertainment show. What you see was chosen for it's entertainment value not if it is typical. It certainly doesn't trump real life experience nor university credits.

2. Yes... some woman do defend and stay with their abusers. The reasons for this can be complex and are not straight forward. Some stay due to attachment reasons. Some have yet to accept they are in a cycle of violence. Some do so out of fear. (In the case of COPS: Are you going to talk poorly of a man who you think could kill you to a camera when he is 20 ft away?) Platitudes that woman just defend men aren't really helpful. Abusive relationships are certainly not "normal". They develop over time and progress in a way that isolates the victim.

How police approach domestic situations has changed over the last 20 or so years. The big change is that police do not require a victim to request charges nor allow them to waive charges. The abuser is arrested and charged and police request social service intervention with the victim. This helps to sort out the attachment issues faster, educate about the cycle of violence (yes it can happen to you) and to make a safety plan with realistic and safe options.