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kovy

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
reply to crazypants

Re: [DSL] VDSL - 25/7 Congestion

Hmmm, someone needs to test with a Bell login.


crazypants

join:2011-02-25
North York, ON
reply to crazypants


crazypants

join:2011-02-25
North York, ON
reply to kovy



Bell Login


kovy

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8

So is this a Teksavvy/Bell link issue... looks like it.



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

I didnt have time to test last night... i'll try tonight.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to crazypants

I was having these problems, and was on the verge of complaining, until I realized that when I connect directly through the modem (enter my TSI login into the cellpipe), I get full speed...

My conclusion was that it was my router sucking, although I've no idea why a router that can easily handle 50 meg at times suddenly can't do better than ~15 megabit on a single line...
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Guspaz:

I was having these problems, and was on the verge of complaining, until I realized that when I connect directly through the modem (enter my TSI login into the cellpipe), I get full speed...

My conclusion was that it was my router sucking, although I've no idea why a router that can easily handle 50 meg at times suddenly can't do better than ~15 megabit on a single line...

That would maybe make some sense, but it doesnt change the fact that during peak hours, the speeds slow down, and during off peak hours they max out on the same hardware.

For what it's worth, I have two identical routers (Netgear WNR3500L) with identical Tomato firmware versions. The cable side is able to handle the 28/1 all day long (with speedboosts showing as high as 80mbps at times).
--



TSI Andre
Got TekSavvy?
Premium,VIP
join:2008-06-03
Chatham, ON
kudos:24
reply to crazypants

Hi guys,

I am currently gathering some information from NOC and should be able to shed some light on this shortly.

Thanks,

Andre



TSI Andre
Got TekSavvy?
Premium,VIP
join:2008-06-03
Chatham, ON
kudos:24
reply to crazypants

Hi Crazypants,

I wanted to thank you for being so patient with us while we worked with you on this issue. I know that you & Martin have been corresponding for quite some time. We have continued to look into the issue and below is what we have found...

Currently, TekSavvy has many 1 GB AGAS links deployed to service its Ontario/Quebec DSL user-base. We have been working with Bell to increase the number of links in the past few months and continue to do so.

Our most recent link was implemented in late October to increase capacity and we have 3 more links or order. Given the large size of TekSavvy, we are hitting technical challenges with Bell in some serving areas. We continue to work with Bell to resolve these and will continue to re-balance links to ensure customers enjoy the full throughput of their internet connection.

A temporary solution, although not ideal, is to disconnect your PPPoE session (or simply reboot your modem/router) and reconnect with the chance of being placed on another link which has been balanced. The executive team is aware of this situation and continues to look at all options to ensure that customers are receiving the best Internet experience possible.

We will continue to communicate and keep an open dialogue as information becomes available.

Cheers,

Andre
--
TSI Andre
Director of Service Delivery
Authorized TekSavvy Employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
Follow me on Twitter!



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

Andre, this is a known thing... But frankly we as end users shouldn't have to worry about it especially as TekSavvy has dozens of these 1gig links...

This has been an issue since Teksavvy got multiple links way back when, and there was no way to "balance them", because bell did not provide a way to do so...

The more customers & links you get, the worse this problem gets!
--



TSI Andre
Got TekSavvy?
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join:2008-06-03
Chatham, ON
kudos:24

I understand what your saying. I just wanted to put it out there to explain the situation a little better and to let people know what are plans are.

Thanks,

Andre


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to TSI Andre

said by TSI Andre:

Given the large size of TekSavvy, we are hitting technical challenges with Bell in some serving areas.

Do you mean:
a) Bell doesn't want to serve 'large' customers?
b) You aren't large enough to get Bell to serve you?
c) TSI is so large that you've lost track of where and when you need upgrade capacity? ie. the paper airplane with the note about capacity issues on it can't make it from one side of the office to the other anymore
d) You aren't growing fast enough to justify 10GB links, so us lowly customers have to wait it out til you can?
e) Something else?

Just asking for a clearer statement.

Calmuser

join:2011-10-27
Canada
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to crazypants

this is troubling. I am thinking of switching from Bell (which has been pretty stable, and solid) to Teksavvy. But if i'm not going to get the same speeds from TS, i'm not sure anymore...

Not that I can get 25/7, only 15/1.

But is the congestion just on 25/7?


kovy

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8

said by Calmuser:

this is troubling. I am thinking of switching from Bell (which has been pretty stable, and solid) to Teksavvy. But if i'm not going to get the same speeds from TS, i'm not sure anymore...

Not that I can get 25/7, only 15/1.

But is the congestion just on 25/7?

If you look at Mike2009 previous post in this topic, my guess it's not.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Andre

said by TSI Andre:

I understand what your saying. I just wanted to put it out there to explain the situation a little better and to let people know what are plans are.

Thanks,

Andre

Unless you guys have changed your network architecture since I last looked, the MLPPP hardware only gets a subset of the AHSSPI links. So you can have a situation where the AHSSPI links to the MLPPP router is saturated, but most or all of the other AHSSPI links might not be full.

So basically, since reconnecting an MLPPP account could only hit one of the AHSSPI tunnels assigned to the MLPPP hardware, you would always hit a saturated link even if non-MLPPP links were unsaturated...

Might want to confirm this with Gabe.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


Mike2009

join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
kudos:3
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to kovy

said by kovy:

said by Calmuser:

this is troubling. I am thinking of switching from Bell (which has been pretty stable, and solid) to Teksavvy. But if i'm not going to get the same speeds from TS, i'm not sure anymore...

Not that I can get 25/7, only 15/1.

But is the congestion just on 25/7?

If you look at Mike2009 previous post in this topic, my guess it's not.

It's been happening for a couple of months at least.

Calmuser

join:2011-10-27
Canada

very troubling. I am going to hold off on switching for a bit longer now.



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Andre

said by TSI Andre:

I understand what your saying. I just wanted to put it out there to explain the situation a little better and to let people know what are plans are.

Thanks,

Andre

Hasn't there been discussions with Bell to provide 10gbps links instead of dozens of 1gbps links? If Bell refuses, shouldnt this be brought up in front of the CRTC, as stifling the growth of independents and limiting them with technology that is affecting their subscribers because of the inability of bell to provide a load balancing solution.
--


crazypants

join:2011-02-25
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to MaynardKrebs

Maynardkrebs,

All your points make sense. The situation with Rogers was similar a while back when the upgrades weren't happening fast enough to handle the TSI growth. Has Bell taken its turn now after the Rogers fiasco from the pass couple of years.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the rules were different for VDSL, in that upgrades should be a lot quicker when it comes to the CRTC. Also, if TSI saw this coming on the cable side, why on earth would you not learn from that experience and ensure you have the proper capacity. With cable there was a stop sell, should there be the same on VDSL?


Dufus

join:2010-10-20
Scarborough, ON
reply to Calmuser

I'm in the same boat.

Currently both a TSI cable customer and a Bell 25/10 customer.

Cable connection has been driving me NUTS over the past few months with random disconnects, modem reboots, etc.
The vDSL has been ROCK SOLID and I get full speeds during peak times on Bell's network.

I was thinking of switching from Bell to TSI vDSL next month, but not with these issues.

Might just cancel the TSI cable and continue to live in shame with Bell internet. :-(



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

reply to Calmuser

Gang,

We've been looking into this and received news today that a rate limit is in place on the AGAs links we have with Bell.

Last year when the CRTC decision for capacity based billing was put into effect we had to choose what capacity we wanted on all our links. We felt that asking to use a full gig link meant that we would surely not get full use out of each link since you can't really use a full gig.. So we chose to only do 900 on each one. At first there was no rate limit installed at all and there was no problem.. However, on our side, there's no limit and so it actually reads more than 900 on our usage graphs.. But not quite high enough to look like it was congested.. normally a congested link has a big flat part at the top of the graph.. we dont see that on the agas links.. Yesterday we decided to ask just in case they now had installed a rate limit.. And it turns out they have. So now that we know this, we'll ask them to bump it up to the full gig to help as quickly as possible. We also have a few more links on order that once those are in, we'll likely revert back to 900 on each link.

We have added links though since January.. 3 or 4 I believe.. We just turned another one up last month.. Another one was misconfigured also..

Now.. since the new year, the number of dsl subscribers has remained relatively flat. We sign up as many as there are who cancel. What's been happening is that lower speed users are switching to higher speeds. The net result is that with the higher speeds it means more usage for the same number of users. Basically our costs are going up faster than it makes sense to upgrade. Just adding that extra 100mbit to each Agas will cost us an additional $65k/month plus about $18k in onetime charges.

As it stands right now. We are loosing money on 60000 DSL users. DSL for us is a money looser.

So, yes. I'm reluctant to add more capacity. I'm even more reluctant to impose traffic shaping at peak times. I just can't stomach it.

Where we stand right now is that if the CRTC doesn't come out with the new rates soon. We will have no choice but to raise rates again. It's exactly as I had predicted last year. The only other alternative is if Bell themselves offers us concessions. I've explained to them that this would be the case if nothing was done. I'm expecting to hear from them at the end of the month. I don't know if or what they might do or say.. I don't know when the CRTC might act either. All I know is that I want to offer the service you guys are paying for.. We thought we were.. Now that we know its being rate limited.. We're correcting it.

I've been holding off on making this post since I didn't think there was major congestion but it looks like there is.

In contrast.. As an example. I mentioned in another thread about the notion of converting to aggregated from disaggregated and that it would be slightly more expensive.. If I take the same calculations and replace the CBB rate with the Bell rate. We would be loosing more than $500k/month on day one. If I'd use the Cogeco rate.. It would be even worse.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Ahhh, so thats the culprit... Thanks a lot Marc for the explanation...

Arent the rates under review by the CRTC?



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

said by HiVolt:

Ahhh, so thats the culprit... Thanks a lot Marc for the explanation...

Arent the rates under review by the CRTC?

Yes. Should be any time now... Hopefully before Christmas. Early next year I'd expect.

Bell doesn't want to loose these subs either though... They may also offer up a temporary off tariff agreement in the mean time.. I don't know.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Yeah, i hope so... VDSL is already pricey as is...


crazypants

join:2011-02-25
North York, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to TSI Andre

Andre,

Thank you for your response. As I mentioned in my review I didn't appreciate the fact that the buck was being pushed back to me. All this time in the private forum I did tests and showed there was and issue yet no one wanted to admit. That since no one else complained, obviously you are an isolated insistent. TSI staff here boast on their advert about "what can do with 300G". I laugh and wonder if I could even reach 200G, if all I count is peak time activities.

At least it is finally out in the open. This is what I asked of Pierre, that I wanted it to be brought forth that there is an issue. But TSI wanted it under the radar as to not scare off potential customers, which I've seen one on this thread mentioned they would hold off.

Also, I understand that you guys have a lot of things on the go but having to PM Martin every so often was getting tiring and I felt I had to escalate things.



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to HiVolt

Yup. I really feel like my back is against the wall. The modem rental, the modems crashing, dry loop fees, setup costs. DMC's.. The whole thing is basically a POS.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by TSI Marc:

Yup. I really feel like my back is against the wall. The modem rental, the modems crashing, dry loop fees, setup costs. DMC's.. The whole thing is basically a POS.

Maybe you should sell the company back to Rocky and go on sabbatical.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

I'm confident the rates will be fixed.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by TSI Marc:

I'm confident the rates will be fixed.

Hope so. I feel your pain.

p.s. Should I order my DSL speed bump now?


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to crazypants

said by crazypants:

Andre,

Thank you for your response. As I mentioned in my review I didn't appreciate the fact that the buck was being pushed back to me. All this time in the private forum I did tests and showed there was and issue yet no one wanted to admit. That since no one else complained, obviously you are an isolated insistent. TSI staff here boast on their advert about "what can do with 300G". I laugh and wonder if I could even reach 200G, if all I count is peak time activities.

At least it is finally out in the open. This is what I asked of Pierre, that I wanted it to be brought forth that there is an issue. But TSI wanted it under the radar as to not scare off potential customers, which I've seen one on this thread mentioned they would hold off.

Also, I understand that you guys have a lot of things on the go but having to PM Martin every so often was getting tiring and I felt I had to escalate things.

It wasn't a case of wanting it under the radar as much as it was that we really didn't think it was that bad.. It looked liked adding the last gig link and fixing the one that was buggered would fix what little problem there was... Certainly we felt that restarting your modem and better balancing the Agas links, as we've always done.. Would solve it.

We've know it was tight though like I said.. We were running it tighter than we would like.. There's no doubt about that. But everybody is.. At these rates it may as well be pure gold...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy