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hm

@videotron.ca
reply to PX Eliezer7

Re: GTA is Full of Them - Another "My Rights Are More Impor

said by PX Eliezer7:

Hmmm.

I can see where a professional masseur would only want to work on clients of their own gender.

Personal service fields are a little different, as I said, from bus companies or restaurants....

It is in personal service fields where gender discrimination may be allowed---provided it is for all women (or men) not just black women or white women or gays or straights or vegetarians or meat-eaters.

Yeah. I guess I am flip-flopping on this issue.

On one hand I see a public service that should be open to the public.

On the other hand there are already public businesses, like the woman only gym for example, that only serve women.

Maybe you have a point when it comes to the personal care businesses.

markf

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reply to hm

said by hm :

The more I think about it, the more I think that these barbers may be in the wrong. Earlier I was all for them but... In the great melting pot of society there has to be some tolerance from all sides.

If you open a business that serves the public then the current laws should stand as is. That is, no discrimination and tolerance must be preached. Otherwise don't be in a business that serves the public within Canada (except in Quebec).

Will they next refuse service to that man with a seeing eye dog because their faith regards dogs as unclean? Do we not preach tolerance for that in all public places? Is it not the law? Is this any different?

A public business isn't in their future.

I want to see a woman sitting in there waiting for her husband & then breastfeed her baby. Something tells me the sh*t would hit the fan. Yet stores lose all the time for this.

Yeah the more I think about it the more I think these barbers are in the wrong. Time to be tolerant of your current society or get out of Dodge. If your religion says you have to quit work and close shop, so be it.

As soon as women's only clubs are abolished women can preach this. Until then it is hypocritical. Somehow I don't think the reaction would be nearly the same if it was a man trying to get into a women's fitness club.


J E F F
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reply to DKS

It is not competing rights because I believe the woman is out of line here by trying to set an example with that barber. She has the option to go elsewhere. There are certainly barbers in Toronto that will give her the man cut she wants. He doesn't have the religious option to cut her hair...unless he divorces his wife and marries her or adopts her as his child.

There was a situation at Cambridge city hall at the marriage hall where the female priest refused to marry gay couples due to her religious beliefs. City hall had a substitute priest that would do gay marriages, however, for the gay community this wasn't good enough, the felt violated that a substitute would have to do gay marriage, and asked the city of Cambridge to fire her. That is what the city ended up doing.

Now, if she was in a town with one barber shop, that would be competing rights..
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein



Wolfie00
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reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by Wolfie00:

But that's not an accurate description of the Rosa Parks event. It wasn't about giving up transportation, it was about giving up her seat and standing.

Right.

But in Rosa Parks case, it was about the government imposing discrimination on a group, because Alabama had racial segregation laws for buses.

In the barber case, it is a private individual who sincerely feels that his religion requires him to refuse service to another individual.

Government discrimination argument = FAIL. Discrimination laws generally apply to all institutions, public and private.

And being male or female can generally be considered to be "part of a group"!

said by PX Eliezer7:

Also, the barber can honestly claim that for him to repeatedly touch a woman even to cut the hair, is an intimate contact. Putting a plate of meat loaf in front of a person is not.

We have an evolving set of social standards and mores. To defy those standards on any grounds, including ostensibly religious ones, is unacceptable in any enlightened secular, democratic and civilized society.

The balance between law and religion has always been evolving and extraordinarily inconsistent and hypocritical. Generally it seems we have "freedom of religion" unless it requires (to take an extreme but logically consistent example) murdering your own daughter for "dishonour", and then we say it's wrong. Why? Why the line should be drawn at that particular point has never been clear to me. It seems a lot clearer to advocate for a set of rational secular laws and principles that govern both basic human rights and non-discriminatory business practices and relegate religion to the homes and churches that wish to practice it.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

MaynardKrebs
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reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

Also, the barber can honestly claim that for him to repeatedly touch a woman even to cut the hair, is an intimate contact.

Ever hear of latex or nitrile gloves?
Technically speaking he wouldn't be touching her if he wore gloves, and at the end of the 'procedure' he could unroll them off his hands in a sterile manner and thus never be 'contaminated' by her.

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said by MaynardKrebs:

Ever hear of latex or nitrile gloves?

Technically speaking he wouldn't be touching her if he wore gloves, and at the end of the 'procedure' he could unroll them off his hands in a sterile manner and thus never be 'contaminated' by her.

Well, now that is an interesting point.


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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by PX Eliezer7:

Also, the barber can honestly claim that for him to repeatedly touch a woman even to cut the hair, is an intimate contact.

Ever hear of latex or nitrile gloves?
Technically speaking he wouldn't be touching her if he wore gloves, and at the end of the 'procedure' he could unroll them off his hands in a sterile manner and thus never be 'contaminated' by her.

Latex or nitrile gloves have nothing to do with avoiding intimacy and his point still stands regardless of your suggestion. Your response is not a valid counter point as he referred to 'intimacy' and you referred to 'contamination'.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to hm

said by hm :

I have seen this before, but I've only ever saw it in a mosque over in NDG where the women and men were segregated.

This sort of thing exists in just about all "ultra" conservative/orthodox sects of many religions. Check out an orthodox Jewish synagogue, or indeed many other religions which originated in the Middle East/Asian subcontinent. Women are treated as 'unclean' or worse - and in many instances as mere vessels for procreation - though in fairness most husbands do tend to treat their own wives reasonably well.

However, it is the act of treating women with disdain for religious or cultural reasons which leads down the path to 'accepted' practices never tolerated in western society of demanding blind obedience to males, female infanticide, selective abortion, female genital mutilation, and honour killings. Who here doesn't remember the case of the couple from Montreal who murdered their kids a few years back? Cultural attitudes and religious precepts are often intertwined and hard to separate. »www.globalnews.ca/timeline+shafi···ory.html

And just to set the record straight, I'm not calling the barber anything other than a religiously observant man who made a wrong decision in not cutting the woman's hair.

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reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

Government discrimination argument = FAIL. Discrimination laws generally apply to all institutions, public and private.

It's interesting that you can say that in a country where they have publicly-funded schools for different religious groups.

In any event, are we now to say that a barbershop is an institution?

There seems to be a lack of common sense here.

Of course it would not be acceptable for a woman to be refused service at a restaurant, or at a gas station, or by an accountant.

But (sorry for the repetition) this involves physical touching, and if a man is uncomfortable for whatever reason touching a woman (or vice versa) and if the woman can get serviced somewhere else, the man should not be forced by the government....

said by Wolfie00:

And being male or female can generally be considered to be "part of a group"!

So all health clubs will be banned from having certain sessions for men only or women only? Again, common sense. Plenty of men will come to leer at women exercising, and the women will just stop coming.

Why not merge the locker rooms, while you're at it?

said by Wolfie00:

We have an evolving set of social standards and mores. To defy those standards on any grounds, including ostensibly religious ones, is unacceptable in any enlightened secular, democratic and civilized society.

But this is not a secular society. This is a privately-owned barbershop run by a Moslem fellow.

And he's not discriminating against anyone by their race or religion or beliefs or sexual orientation or politics. He just does not want to lay HIS own hands on a woman, and that's a reasonable extension of his religion.

While you're at it, why not have the government require the Catholic church to accept women priests? Where do you want to stop in building your utopia?

said by Wolfie00:

It seems a lot clearer to advocate for a set of rational secular laws and principles that govern both basic human rights and non-discriminatory business practices and relegate religion to the homes and churches that wish to practice it.

What of the human right of a male who does not want to be forced to touch an unrelated female, in his own shop?

What of HIS rights in this brave new world?


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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Latex or nitrile gloves have nothing to do with avoiding intimacy and his point still stands regardless of your suggestion. Your response is not a valid counter point as he referred to 'intimacy' and you referred to 'contamination'.

What intimacy? The woman wanted a haircut in a public barber shop. Its not like he was giving her a rubdown massage in the back room...

Seriously, this is something that the religions should talk about and amend, especially with "globalization" and multiculturalism all over the world...

Its really ass backwards...
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

Check out an orthodox Jewish synagogue, or indeed many other religions which originated in the Middle East/Asian subcontinent. Women are treated as 'unclean' or worse - and in many instances as mere vessels for procreation - though in fairness most husbands do tend to treat their own wives reasonably well.

I don't think that in the barber's case, it is an issue of uncleanliness but rather of intimacy.


Gone
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Latex or nitrile gloves have nothing to do with avoiding intimacy and his point still stands regardless of your suggestion. Your response is not a valid counter point as he referred to 'intimacy' and you referred to 'contamination'.

If you really want to hit this out into left field, is sexual intercourse with a condom any less intimate than without? I suppose there are some who would say it is, others who would say it isn't.

But I digress, and I don't think he gets any of it at all. That same friend who explained to me his interpretation of Islam's position on working with haraam also explained to me on another one of our many conversations that touching hair is intimate contact, regardless of the context. It would be well within a barber's right to consider cutting a woman's hair to be intimate contact even when doing something as benign as cutting hair. Just the same, he said that if a man were to touch another man's hair it is wholly offensive and that there was once a time where it was considered justifiable to kill a man for doing that. Seriously.

I have no doubt that, like Christianity, there are many different viewpoints and interpretations in Islam. That was just his, and knowing this it kind of makes sense why the barber may feel the way he does. Still, as I said before, I don't see this whole situation as a religious one, rather I see it as merely someone who is running a business who choosing to conduct their business in a manner of their choosing.


Gone
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reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

What intimacy? The woman wanted a haircut in a public barber shop. Its not like he was giving her a rubdown massage in the back room...

One single person's definition of intimacy is not necessarily universal.

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reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

What intimacy? The woman wanted a haircut in a public barber shop. Its not like he was giving her a rubdown massage in the back room...

Even handshakes are not allowed, and this is just as true in Orthodox Jewish practice as in Islam.

-------------------------------------

In the US we have a famous Army General (and recently resigned CIA director) who wished he'd followed such practices, instead of going the other way.

Moslems look at western societies and shake their heads in disbelief....


Gone
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said by PX Eliezer7:

Moslems look at western societies and shake their heads in disbelief....

... just as we do the same to them.

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said by Gone:

said by PX Eliezer7:

Moslems look at western societies and shake their heads in disbelief....

... just as we do the same to them.

Reminds one of the Star Trek Next Generation episode where there is a planet Kesprit. Instead of being a unified planet (as have been all others applying to the Federation), Kesprit has two sovereignties (Kes and Prit) that are quite incompatible.


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reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

What intimacy? The woman wanted a haircut in a public barber shop. Its not like he was giving her a rubdown massage in the back room...

... okay, you can relax and note that my post was concerning someone else's point and it wasn't my original point at all; no, instead I was reading and correcting someone else.

In any case, Islamic tradition forbids a woman from displaying her hair to a man that is not her immediate kin so it's only understandable that a devout Islamic man would respect that.

It may ease your hysterics to know there are less devout male hairdressers in more moderate Islamic areas that will cut the hair of women so there's no need for you to go on and on about 'religions' as it's not a view that's shared by everyone who's religious.

It's strange how intolerant people are, when they refer to intolerance.


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reply to Grappler

If I was the judge in this case and you have to consider reading between the lines of the charter that defines intimate

Therefore it comes down to if she was asking him for a brazilian well ahem yup that's intimate

In reality she's only asking for a little off the sides and the top so that's not intimate.

So she wins.

This is an interesting case given the conflict and all.
I look forward to the outcome and decision on whose right trumps the others. Personally I hope its not religion for the win.


MaynardKrebs
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by PX Eliezer7:

Also, the barber can honestly claim that for him to repeatedly touch a woman even to cut the hair, is an intimate contact.

Ever hear of latex or nitrile gloves?
Technically speaking he wouldn't be touching her if he wore gloves, and at the end of the 'procedure' he could unroll them off his hands in a sterile manner and thus never be 'contaminated' by her.

Latex or nitrile gloves have nothing to do with avoiding intimacy and his point still stands regardless of your suggestion. Your response is not a valid counter point as he referred to 'intimacy' and you referred to 'contamination'.

I stand to be corrected but as I recollect, in Islam, the prohibition on being in "intimate" contact (and intimate in this context is touching her hair & scalp) is more to do with the presumed inability of the male to keep his dick in his pants because unrelated women will inevitably whip the man into a sexual frenzy. See the 2nd & 3rd view here to see a reasonable interpretation, but the first interpretation has the man, in the vernacular, "popping his rocks".
»www.islamawareness.net/Wudu/fatw···ing.html

Here's another shining example of reasoned thought
»www.faithfreedom.org/features/ne···mblance/

MaynardKrebs
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

[
If you really want to hit this out into left field, is sexual intercourse with a condom any less intimate than without? I suppose there are some who would say it is, others who would say it isn't.

"I did not have sex with 'that' woman."


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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

I stand to be corrected but as I recollect, in Islam, the prohibition on being in "intimate" contact

What you go out of your way to 'recollect' (google) is not accurate to what everyone believes, practices, and expects of others.

MaynardKrebs
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said by urbanriot:

said by MaynardKrebs:

I stand to be corrected but as I recollect, in Islam, the prohibition on being in "intimate" contact

What you go out of your way to 'recollect' (google) is not accurate to what everyone believes, practices, and expects of others.

Who am I to dispute what Islamic imams/scholars preach?

Not *everyone* who is a Muslim believes what the barber apparently believes. I'm sure that there are some Muslim male barbers who *would* cut the woman's hair because they can understand the difference between lust and work.


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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

... okay, you can relax and note that my post was concerning someone else's point and it wasn't my original point at all; no, instead I was reading and correcting someone else.

In any case, Islamic tradition forbids a woman from displaying her hair to a man that is not her immediate kin so it's only understandable that a devout Islamic man would respect that.

It may ease your hysterics to know there are less devout male hairdressers in more moderate Islamic areas that will cut the hair of women so there's no need for you to go on and on about 'religions' as it's not a view that's shared by everyone who's religious.

It's strange how intolerant people are, when they refer to intolerance.

Its just that such archaic customs & traditions just make Muslims a laughing stock from the rest of the modern world, especially when those customs & traditions are brought into societies without such restrictions and locals are obviously bothered by them and that they are expected to respect them...

Seriously, this isn't the middle ages... There have been other cultures that have reformed their way of life as they evolved into a more modern society...

Time to reform and modernize a bit... And this isnt just a rag against Muslims, but other groups & religions with such cultural oddities...
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said by HiVolt:

Its just that such archaic customs & traditions just make Muslims a laughing stock from the rest of the modern world, especially when those customs & traditions are brought into societies without such restrictions and locals are obviously bothered by them and that they are expected to respect them...

It seems more like intolerant people going out of their way to make a huge issue out of the beliefs of others or googling the most obscure thing they can dredge up and feebly using it as an example.

Not sure where the 'rest of the modern world is' in your mind, but more than 1/5 of the world is Muslim and plenty of those people are in Canada and the United States.

I hate to tell you that the only person that comes off is a laughing stock are the people like yourself that go out of their way to display their intolerance to everyone else. At least the barbers that are the focus of your intolerance keep it within the privacy of their own business.

MaynardKrebs
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And then there are the people who engage in ad hominem attacks rather than engaging in rational debate.

G'nite all.



urbanriot
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said by MaynardKrebs:

And then there are the people who engage in ad hominem attacks rather than engaging in rational debate.

Best example of "pot. kettle. black." I've seen in a long time. G'night!


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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

It seems more like intolerant people going out of their way to make a huge issue out of the beliefs of others or googling the most obscure thing they can dredge up and feebly using it as an example.

Not sure where the 'rest of the modern world is' in your mind, but more than 1/5 of the world is Muslim and plenty of those people are in Canada and the United States.

I hate to tell you that the only person that comes off is a laughing stock are the people like yourself that go out of their way to display their intolerance to everyone else. At least the barbers that are the focus of your intolerance keep it within the privacy of their own business.

I was referring to the Middle East & countries where Islam is the majority religion...

I'd like to be tolerant dude... But soon everything is gonna be an issue, because it offends someone's religious or old-country customs... I frankly don't care a flying fig what goes on in the country of origin, practice whatever voodoo you like, but try to respect the general way of life here...

Some already had the balls to ask Canada to respect Sharia Law... What's next?
--