dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
1969
share rss forum feed


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

This explains a lot: people are getting dumber

»www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the···5328000/

"Considering all the scientific advancements of the modern age – putting a man on the moon, inventing nuclear energy and creating the Internet, just to mention a few – it seems ludicrous to argue that human beings are getting dumber.

Yet that’s exactly what Stanford University researcher Gerald Crabtree suggests is happening in a set of papers, published in the journal Trends in Genetics."

So...this explains a lot!
--
The irony of common sense, it is not that common.
I cannot deny anything I did not say.
A kitten dies every time someone uses "then" and "than" incorrectly.
I mock people who give their children odd spelling of names.


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
Is this a global trend? Or just Americans?

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
said by milnoc:

Is this a global trend? Or just Americans?

Hey!

----------------------

Anyway, Cyril Kornbluth wrote an SF story on this in the 1950's, called "The Marching Morons".

Full text:
»www.scribd.com/doc/23657356/The-···g-Morons


Kardinal
Dei Gratia Regina
Premium,Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th

1 recommendation

reply to donoreo
Sometimes referred to as Cole's Axiom:

“The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.”

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to donoreo
I don't think people are getting dumber. I think the Dumb are just getting more attention and opportunity to congregate.


ekster
Hi there
Premium
join:2010-07-16
Lachine, QC
kudos:3
Reviews:
·FreePhoneLine
reply to donoreo
»www.livescience.com/24713-humans···nce.html

I prefer the counter-argument.

'But just because humans have more mutations in their intelligence genes doesn't mean we are becoming less brainy as a species, said psychologist Thomas Hills of the University of Warwick, who was not involved in the study. Instead, removing the pressure for everyone to be a superb hunter or gatherer may have allowed us to evolve a more diverse population with different types of smarts, he said.

"You don't get Stephen Hawking 200,000 years ago. He just doesn't exist," Hills told LiveScience. "But now we have people of his intellectual capacity doing things and making insights that we would never have achieved in our environment of evolutionary adaptation."'


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to PX Eliezer70
I'm not a big SF fan but that story is the first thing that came to mind. The premise is that we're getting dumber because the dumber segments of the population are indiscriminately breeding faster, and there's probably some real truth to that.

The interesting counterpoint is that IQ scores have generally been increasing over generations, to the point that IQ tests have to be revised once in a while, a phenomenon sometimes called the Flynn effect. But this effect is far too rapid to be genetic in origin, and there's some evidence that it's flattened out in developed countries. Among the explanations for it, the most likely IMHO is a combination of better test-taking proficiency as a result of better education, and environmental improvements, particularly the reduction of neurotoxins in the environment (elimination of lead from lead paint and gasoline, reduction of other heavy metals from coal emissions, etc.). So it has nothing to do with long-term evolutionary improvement of intelligence.

said by ekster:

"You don't get Stephen Hawking 200,000 years ago. He just doesn't exist," Hills told LiveScience. "But now we have people of his intellectual capacity doing things and making insights that we would never have achieved in our environment of evolutionary adaptation."'

He existed, he just wasn't relevant. Adaptive evolution through natural selection is the only kind of evolution there is. We live in a cocoon of civilization that has brought human biological evolution to pretty much a dead halt. We get occasional geniuses like Einstein and Hawking, but they have no evolutionary advantage.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
said by Wolfie00:

The premise is that we're getting dumber because the dumber segments of the population are indiscriminately breeding faster, and there's probably some real truth to that.

Sounds like you maybe an advocate of eugenics?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Or teaching safe sex / abstinence because I'm sure the demographics he's referring to are not intentionally producing offspring.


Encino Man

@videotron.ca
reply to donoreo
quote:
“I would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000 BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas and a clear-sighted view of important issues,”
Crabtree said in his paper, according to The Independent.

“Furthermore, I would guess that he or she would be among the most emotionally stable of our friends and colleagues.”
Kind of made me chuckle. Only the most pathological murders made it to the top to rule back then. Still the same today.

Good memory is relative to age. Average lifespan was what? 35? 40?

"a clear-sighted view of important issues" like conquering? Enslaving? Crushing your enemies at all costs? Inbreeding?

Basically what this sounds like and what he's saying is, all mentally challenged people pollute our gene pool and thus should be sterilized or put to death. Sounds like the same plan Germany had with forced sterilizations for any defect and/or death in order to keep the gene pool pure.

I think the guy is a quack. At least what the the globe and mail had to write makes him come across like a total quack with the same thinking as Nazi Germany (well not only Germany, many other countries did the same or still do).


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

1 recommendation

Would this be the Athens where democracy was invented, and was famous for its philosophers and much of the foundation of modern civilization?

Secondly, what the hell does this report have to do with Germany or politics or sterilizations? Where is that being advocated? This is a typical example of a scientist reporting observations being accused of some nefarious conspiracy by someone who doesn't like his observations.

May I suggest: think first, write later.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
reply to donoreo
Sounds like advocating eugenics....


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

Would this be the Athens where democracy was invented, and was famous for its philosophers and much of the foundation of modern civilization?

Secondly, what the hell does this report have to do with Germany or politics or sterilizations? Where is that being advocated? This is a typical example of a scientist reporting observations being accused of some nefarious conspiracy by someone who doesn't like his observations.

May I suggest: think first, write later.

1st response: Goodwin's Law as at the end they have been the only regime to actually implement any sort or form of eugenics into a political agenda.

Second response: Athenians killed off their rivals so they would have no real opposition (To prevent what is happening in the US right now)

Third response:

Sounds to me more like generational whining about laziness and nostalgia in the bias more then actually advocating eugenics.

The final response really shows the authors bias with this quote. He implies that if we were destroy technology, and and go backwards we would become "smarter". All the automated things we do make us 'dumb' not the genes.

quote:
Although we cant blame it on genetics, however, there is perhaps a case to be made that new technologies let us get away with using less brain power. Think back to how many telephone numbers you used to know by heart before the invention of the memory-dial function and contact lists on our mobile phones. Consider how you were forced to creatively solve problems and come up with answers to questions before Google.
Its similar to the argument proposed that humans in 2000 years will have non functional fingers except the thumbs. An evolution triggered because of needed muscular development to facilitate the use of text messaging (a need to survive in today's socioeconomic world).


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
Not sure where you're going with this. How is that quote "biased"? It seems to me demonstrably true. Kids used to have to learn long division, memorize multiplication tables, learn to use logarithm tables and learn why they worked, learn to use slide rules -- now they just pound numbers into a calculator. This is not necessarily "bad", nor does he ever say it is, but it certainly requires far less skill and therefore levels the differences between the bright and the not-so-bright when it comes to these skills.

And at no point does he suggest or imply that we need to "destroy technology and go backwards." Like the other poster, these are all biases that you're reading into it because, for whatever reason, you apparently disagree with his observations. It's possible to disagree with him without suggesting some nefarious Luddite plot!
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan


Encino Man

@videotron.ca
reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

Would this be the Athens where democracy was invented, and was famous for its philosophers and much of the foundation of modern civilization?

Secondly, what the hell does this report have to do with Germany or politics or sterilizations? Where is that being advocated? This is a typical example of a scientist reporting observations being accused of some nefarious conspiracy by someone who doesn't like his observations.

May I suggest: think first, write later.

If you actually read the whole thing it's based on pollution of the gene pool. Read it. There are underlying tones to it that one can draw to countries that actually did try to weed out genetic defects. Thus the reference you didn't grasp.

And yeah, that's all that came out of the average Greek at the time, ohkay...

I find what was written to be amusing. Something to muse about. But it's quackery. Especially this part.

“I would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000 BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas and a clear-sighted view of important issues,” Crabtree said in his paper, according to The Independent.

“Furthermore, I would guess that he or she would be among the most emotionally stable of our friends and colleagues.”


As the article states, it's hotly debated.

As for the "nefarious conspiracy". I never stated that. You are taking it (or reading it) the wrong way.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
I read it. There's nothing that I "failed to grasp". You're reading into it ridiculous policy prescriptions that aren't there.

The strongest criticism that can made of this is that it's not really a testable hypothesis, which limits its value as science outside the realm of speculation. But it's certainly plausible from everything we understand about natural selection that we're no longer biologically evolving, since there's no survival benefit to drive it, and technology seems to be even further exacerbating that. It's no different than the observation that a lot of people nowadays can't drive standard transmissions, and when we have a lot more cars that can do things like parallel park themselves, more people won't know how to do that, either. Those are simple observations, not an advocacy of eugenics or Luddism!
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

said by milnoc:

Is this a global trend? Or just Americans?

Hey!

----------------------

Anyway, Cyril Kornbluth wrote an SF story on this in the 1950's, called "The Marching Morons".

Full text:
»www.scribd.com/doc/23657356/The-···g-Morons

It's ok....he only meant Republicans

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

I don't think people are getting dumber. I think the Dumb are just getting more attention and opportunity to congregate.

They certainly seem to breed a lot.
Octomom
Mitt
...the list is endless....

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to Encino Man
said by Encino Man :



"a clear-sighted view of important issues" like conquering? Enslaving? Crushing your enemies at all costs? Inbreeding?

Mustn't forget the encompassing belief in 'gods' for every occasion and physical phenomenon.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to vue666
said by vue666:

Sounds like advocating eugenics....

More like musing with it and stating we are dumber for not letting nature takes its course type thing.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
Then we should cure not the sick? not mend the injured? help the blind?... Sorry but I don't think that's the type of society we want to evolve to... It would mean a cave man type mentality...

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
And certainly no room for the Three Stooges.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Wolfie00
Plausible but false = specious.

This is one of the reasons why scientists (not science) continue to lose credibility by coming up with ridiculous theories like this one; for no other reason than to rise above the 140 character noise or get page hits. In that regard, such "scientists" continue to devolve into the infotainment realm: the medium is the message.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Wolfie00
Wolfie, your going to have to wait a few centuries for the rest of the crowd to hopefully evolve enough to understand your logic. Unfortunately, the best they can do is eat and defecate having lost the ability to create fire or hunt.


FaxCap

join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC
reply to donoreo
Go ahead.....ask any 12 year old kid to do long division without a calculator.

FaxCap


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
Or,

638
x983
-----
= ?

Prepare to wait a while.


FaxCap

join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
said by Juggernaut:

Or,

638
x983
-----
= ?

Prepare to wait a while.

Yup....you know it's not going to end well when they have to take off their shoes.

FaxCap


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to FaxCap
What purpose is served by knowing how to divide 564,463 by 12,107 by hand?

Is a measure of your intelligence your ability, or lack thereof, to cook all your meals from scratch instead of buying them pre-packaged? Is a computer illiterate who needs that ability smarter than a farmer who runs a well-managed farm?

It's not what you know, it's what you need to know (skillset) to function well in today's environment that matters.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
With those abilities you have options. Knowledge is power. Surveyors have GPS, but they still do it by rod. Why? Because sometimes GPS doesn't work where you are.

You can have a fancy calculator, but if you can't enter an equation in the correct order, it's useless. This is the foundation of knowledge.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to FaxCap
said by FaxCap:

Go ahead.....ask any 12 year old kid to do long division without a calculator.

FaxCap

The private school my girls go to does not allow calculators and they teach the times tables and long division.