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BrianK

@184.63.94.x

Pole size question for Gen 4

I have an upgrade to Gen 4 scheduled for next week. Currently I have the large dish for business service (1.2m?) on a custom pole mount that has worked great for years. I think the pole diameter was 2 1/8".

Will the new Gen 4 dish fit on the same pole or do I need to modify it? What pole size does the new Gen 4 dish require or will the installer just replace the Tria and keep the current dish?



heeby jeeby

@verizon.net

the pole for your .98m antenna is actually 2 3/8" od. the gen4 upgrade uses the same size mount, so the existing pole will be fine, pending there is line of sight to the satellite from there.



BrianK

@184.63.94.x
reply to BrianK

Perfect and thanks for the help.

What is the direction of the new Dish? My old dish (Oregon) was on 99W which took it through an apple tree. Self installed and had 81 signal strength in winter but only 72 in summer. Really need to get that tree pruned:)

Mute question actually, I have clear view 360 other than the apply tree at 99W.


sharkyyoung
Premium
join:2012-03-15
Reno, NV

I believe it is around 107



heeby jeeby

@verizon.net
reply to BrianK

the new satellite is echostar 17, located at 107west. magnetic azimuth of 145, elevation of 37, roughly, as based on the middle of the state. whereas your current dish is pointed at 99w, the new satellite is a few degrees west, and a few degrees lower, as your standing behind the reflector.



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL
reply to BrianK

The pole is called a schedule 40 - 2 3/8 inch OD pipe, BTW, and it is a rather thick walled pipe, not the thin "wave in the breeze" fence post type some have mentioned. Our installer had and used that pipe on our G4 install, and if you try to locate it locally, they are kind of hard to find (try an Iron works company) and will cost upwards of $50-$60.

Here is one of the best tools I have found (using Google maps) for figuring out the LOS (with out obstacles) to the sat: »www.dishpointer.com/
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3 + HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

1 edit

said by PCsongBird:

The pole is called a schedule 40 - 2 3/8 inch OD pipe

That might confuse someone at a sales counter. Pipe is sold by inside diameter. So ask for a 2" Sch40, which will give you the needed 2-3/8" outside diameter. Galvanized is ideal, regular steel will begin to rust almost immediately. Shoppers should be able to find it at most welding shops, just ask them to cut you off an 8' long section.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL

Thanks Greg for clarifying that. FYI, the installers, as I understand it, are suppose to show up with the "right" pole now for installs, as ours and many others didn't in the past. I'm hoping that they all got that memo now. Our G4 installer did.
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3 + HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state

Yeah we all got the memo, but I am not buying a $50+ pole just to give it away. The regular thin wall poles are just fine. I can understand the need for schedule 40 when the dishes were behemoths. However with the light weight gen4 schedule 40 is over kill. I'm not changing until someone reimburses the cost of the pole or they can just fire me over it.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

3 edits

said by stardust3:

The regular thin wall poles are just fine.

And how many of these systems have you installed on thinwall? I ask, because the dish isn't as small as you make it out to be. Granted, a big DirecTV Slimline dish holds up ok on a smaller diameter mount. But this Gen4 dish is over 36" wide and more than 26" tall. I think that's reasonably close to the sail area of the old Direcway 74cm elliptical, and Hughes required that THEY be installed on 2" Sch 40

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012

sharkyyoung
Premium
join:2012-03-15
Reno, NV

Better yet what state do you install in and what company are you with? Glad it's not my state



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL

4 edits
reply to stardust3

stardust, you may be part of the problem and not part of the solution. You also may be the guy that installed our HN7000 years ago... or could have been.

He was in and out of here fast, had us check out our signal and it worked ok that night. We woke up the next morning and the system was DOA. Upon looking out the window at the dish, it was now leaning downward at a 20+ degree angle!

It was a thin walled pole not mounted in quick set concrete, as the concrete was still wet and loose. A quick net search of "problems with HughesNet" led to this site and we learned how things should be done right from Greg, Don, and some of the other regulars. (I can't thank you guys enough for that!)

We spent more time and money redoing it ourselves, and did it right this time, pouring more concrete, learning how to point it and peak it, and even bracing that thin walled pole after filling it with more concrete for rigidity.

Even with that, the pole would oscillate in the breeze when the wind would pick up above 10-12 knots here in our state. We should have pulled the pole and started completely over, but we didn't and were kind of P**ed off we had to do this in the first place! We also found issues with the grounding block, the ground in general, and weather sealing the connectors, and we redid those too.

I am sure these type of installs has led to many unhappy customers over the years, and an influx of calls to customer support at HN, wasting everyones time and $$$ in the process.

To see an installer say "Yeah, we all got the memo, but I am not buying it..." just shows the attitude and and root of the problem.

HN has been aware of this problem for years now, and in an effort to solve it, they put out that memo all installers should have received.

I would like to think we were part of helping fix that problem, because one of the things we did in the end, was to send pictures of that first install, and well document the problems, into our contact @ HN. I know for a fact that problem went up the chain of command to the proper people, and steps were eventually put in place to help solve it.

Everyone on G4 should also have gotten I believe a survey in their email, rating everything the installers had done, from the tech work to the attitude. We did.

All I can do is urge each customer to become as informed as is possible to what an "official" HN install should entail, and report any problems to Corp.

It will save so many problems down the road, both for you and HN.

Maybe by this we can all weed out the installs that will cause us problems later, and take some of these out of the equation.
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3 + HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state

It's easy to say I may or may not be part of the problem. Until someone does this for a living they have no clue. My poles do NOT move & have yet to see the wind blow 1 over. I've been back on several old installs that I installed with this type of pole to do an upgrade, TC, Etc. In all cases the pole was never an issue & still solid. The bottom line is $$, if installers are supplying the pole they can't afford to take a $50+ loss on an install. A real solution is to have customers pay for a pole install or Hughes reimburse installers the cost of the pole, but it shouldn't be the burden of the installer to pay for this.



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL

Well, I would think that would be between you and HN, or perhaps you and your customers, and discussed up front. before assuming that a pole of lesser quality than described by the companies own install manual and notes, will suffice for the job. You can ignore the facts if you wish, we and our neighbors have to live with the system day in and day out.

I assure you that my (smaller) dish vibrating in the wind we get is not helping, and its not the dish being lose, it's the pole never having the strength it needs, as specified by Hughes. Yes, ours has never fallen over, but solid it's not, not on that foundation. Maybe that's the reason for the memo on the "right" pole for the job don't you think?

And our neighbors vibrate even worse, but at least I strengthened ours, and it helped.

But our last installer did it right, and the G4 is on a solid pole now, because our installer at least followed the instructions from the company.

Argue all you want, it's the companies own specs and policies you are fighting with, and don't take it out on your customers with a "sub standard" install. I'm just saying...
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3/HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
reply to stardust3

Maybe there's some kind of misunderstanding here. Where does it say that a Sch40 pole and associated labor is included in a Gen4 standard installation? I always thought a polemount constituted a non-standard installation UNLESS there was absolutely no line of sight with the standard mount.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to PCsongBird

I'm done here & have nothing else to say. I'm going to work as business as usual.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

said by stardust3:

I'm done here & have nothing else to say. I'm going to work as business as usual.

In that case, I have to echo the sentiment expressed by PCSongBird; just don't do business as usual in our areas. Good luck at your next polemount audit by the way.

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


anonanomanom

@verizon.net
reply to grohgreg

some time ago, hns changes rules around a bit. back when the recovery act jobs started i think. standard install includes pole. but its worded as such:

"If there is no line of sight to the satellite from an approved structure that can support a tri-mast roof / wall mount then the installer will, with the customer's permission, install a pole mount that meets HughesNet specifications no further than 25ft from the home. A pole mount will be used only when it's the only remaining option to provided high speed internet."

techs are not allowed to charge for pole mount installation. its been a complaint since day one. now hughes, did bump up the pay for a standard install (or distributors did, not sure who), but it hardly compensates for 2 poles a week, based on 3 installs a day, 5 days a week. so unfortunately, some techs have cut corners....thin wall pole. i personally have not.

in addition, per the actual order notes "pole will be used when its the only remaining option"....if a tech rolls up on a job and the customer demands a pole, they just plain dont want it on the house, and they have good los from an approved mounting surface (shingle roof/wood gable end wall), techs were told to escalate the issue. techs were then still told to just put in a pole so the job doesnt go down.....tech coughs up another pole.

so you can see the technicians complaint.

its a double edged sword, the fight has been going on ever since the rules changed. i dont see poles ever being a charge again though.


montana_sat
Premium
join:2005-12-05
Kalispell, MT

A bit off topic, but I have to jump in on this one as this is my pet peeve of this industry! First to be clear, I will not install a HughesNet system on thinwall pipe whether it works or not because I'm either going to do it to specs or not do it at all cause that's how my daddy taught me to be, HOWEVER that being said... we didn't cut corners, but we did change our policy and stopped doing fulfillment installs and service calls for HNS! For those that don't know what that means, it simply means that we now only do installs and service calls for our local customers that have ordered their equipment and service through us originally! At least that way we can use part of our sales commission to cover the additional costs of the pole mount, materials and installation. Why would anyone care... I'll explain later...

We can clear more $$ in a 15 minutes sale than we can clear in a 5 hour install and that's just wrong! But this is one reason why so many dealers have went to the "sales only" program and the consumers are left waiting several days or weeks for an installer or repair technician that has to knock out 2 - 3 calls a day to make any $$! This is where the cutting corners comes into play and the installation quality decreases! And the steps HNS has taken to improve installation quality have helped a bit I'm sure, but when you increase the responsibilities and expectations, you have to increase the pay, and while they added a whopping $25 per install, it doesn't come close to covering the number of pole mounts we were installing and doesn't make up for all of the additional time that their quality control procedures added to the installation either! So they've lost a lot of installers in the process and will lose more until they adjust the installation and service call pay to meet HughesNets' additional requirements and expectations. There are still some great installers out there with pride and self-esteem that care about quality, but they are getting harder to find because we all know you get what you pay for!



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL

1 edit

Gentlemen, I thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful insights into the pole issue. I do see your issue w/ HN regarding the added cost of the pole mount required, vs doing it using a "cheap easy" solution, and feel this is something that HN needs to address for the benefit of everyone involved. Perhaps approaching them "in mass" as an issue that is a sticking point for the installers, would actually lead to a better solution for us all.

I for one would have no problem, when the options for mounting are explained, paying the relatively small extra amount for the job, that covered the right pole and concrete. It is actually an easier and safer install though than going up 35 feet to my very steeply pitched roof and trying to work. Take the cheap $10 pole and/or the $15/$20 tripod mount out of the equation, plus the safety of the roof climb, and I think most of us would have no problem with it. It's just not that much more money in the end, all things considered.

We are the ones that have to live with the system for years, and I really think most of us would rather have it done right the first time, than suffer through a bad install for years to come.

And this is coming from two "60 something" year old's, that already had to get out in the 100 degree hot, humid, July Florida weather, over six years ago, to learn and redo our first installation completely, due to a bad lazy installer. We can certainly sympathize with your position.
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3/HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome



C0RR0SIVE88

@direcway.com
reply to stardust3

So, you rather screw the client in the end stardust3?

I can't say for sure as I am not an installer, and I don't get all the information that installers do get, but, when my Gen4 system was installed, my installers had to take pictures of several things, with, if I remember right, my SAN showing up on paper, in the pictures. This was sent back to hughesnet. If they require this on all installs now (My install was a training install....) or not this very day, I am unsure. But, I would find it hilarious, if Hughesnet had to send out another installer to check your work, and find the wrong pipe had been used, while the install is still under the warranty period. You could probably see a nice little bill to you to cover your screw up.

I know if I ever have a customer like you come into my garage, I will half ass the work, and double the prices, just because you like to screw people over and cause headaches for several people.

Hell, I would hate to see what those thinwall pipes do in the wind around here, the proper pipe vibrates a decent bit in mild winds, a LOT in very heavy winds. Signal goes down a good bit when this happens, so you ARE the problem, and seriously need to find another field of work.... Maybe you can manage as janitorial at walmart? Maybe a door greeter? Those seem to be with in your abilities.


montana_sat
Premium
join:2005-12-05
Kalispell, MT

On the realistic side of things I've been on several HughesNet service calls where I found thin-wall pipe was used instead of Schedule 40, and fortunatly whoever was installing them in our area at least filled them up with concrete and strengthened them up a bit, but even the ones I found that hadn't been filled with concrete, none of those repairs were related to the installer using thin-wall pipe, so chances are that isn't going to be a major concern or problem area, but of course Schd. 40 is better!

And installers are now required to take several photos of the installation and submit them with their paperwork to get paid, so that should help as far as the installation quality is concerned anyway!


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to C0RR0SIVE88

To all you old codgers spouting off. You have no idea what you're talking about. The nice thing is I don't have to answer to any of you, other than with the finger. As far as thin wall poles, I can guarantee I'm not the only 1 using them. I know at least 30 other installers between 2 companies using thin wall also. Don't think for a minute that Hughes doesn't know they're being used. If they supplied them like they used to it would be different, but they don't do it now. It was too expensive for them & it's too expensive for installers also. They also know they would lose a big chunk of the workforce by forcing their hand. To those that demand schedule 40 I suggest you have it on hand when the installer arrives.


sharkyyoung
Premium
join:2012-03-15
Reno, NV

stardust3
I thought you were done with this, I guess people hit a nerve!
Next I guess you will want to use PVC.



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL
reply to stardust3

Well stardust, these "old codgers" just happen to be customers of HughesNet, and I guess indirectly customers of yours, as yours is the first and only "face" anyone see's when they purchase the product and service from Hughes. And what a delight you must be in person to deal with! I am sure that anyone reading this thread interested in purchasing HughesNet, or just wanting info on what should be a quality standard install (as per the Hughes company specs) will find the information you provided very helpful. I thank you again for enlighten all us old codgers (and some of the younger ones) on what should be and what is the reality in your world. Even the rude name calling and insinuations really add more to the information that each person needs to have before making this rather expensive purchase. Thanks again!
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3/HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome



PCsongBird

join:2006-12-07
Hawthorne, FL

1 edit
reply to BrianK

I think there is now more than enough information in this thread to answer the original posters question about the Gen4 install.

The answer from the HughesNet installer notes specify the proper 2" schedule 40 galvanized pole, and that has been given.

It was countered with the opinion of one of the HughesNet "expert" installers, with his idea of what he uses and why, the thin walled pole that is not in the HN guidelines requirement.

That was again debated by actual users of that pole, on previous installs on a much smaller and lighter dish, as being inadequate on that system, vibrating in the wind, effecting signal, mod code results, and bit depth in the end, resulting in less than optimum performance when this happens.

It was suggested perhaps this is the reason for the recent memo sent out by the company in regards to the pole used.

This was again countered by the "expert" installer as being delusional thinking, as is using the required pole to start with.

The attitude of the "expert" installer only adds to the "flavor" of the thread, but is very enlightening in it's own right.

There is a reason Hughes put out these guidelines and notes, especially in light of the new larger Gen 4 dish system, but as you can see, there are some "problems" implementing it still.

Perhaps the new steps that HughesNet are putting in place for the installers Quality Control will eventually help in that regard.

One can only hope....

After all, we are the ones using and paying for the system day in and day out... and I would like to think that maters to this company, even if it doesn't to some of these installers.
--
HN9000-Elite-Spaceway3/HT1000-PowerMax-EchoStar17/Dual 3.2G P4 Rackmount Pro Tools Computer/HP Pavilion dv7 i7/Toshiba Satellite 5105/Linksys E3000/WinXP Pro SP3/Win7 64bit/Chrome



Aframe
Premium
join:2008-01-30
Uvalde, TX
kudos:1
reply to BrianK

I sure that on the installs that don't get a pole installed he is refunding the $25 to hughesnet.
--
HN9000/Spaceway III,74m/1w,Elite package,Windows 7,Ubuntu,


stardust3

join:2012-09-08
united state
reply to PCsongBird

I will say most people do not any homework in regards to signing up on this service. At least 75% have no clue that caps even exist or that high pings are not good for gaming. A good portion of those have other means of internet available to them. I couldn't count the times I would be there to replace someones cable modem with hughes. I just shake my head & install it as I'm not there to try & talk them out of it. Thankfully most of my installs are mast mounts. I've been carrying the same 2 poles around for over 2 weeks. Did you know hughes does not allow a dish to be mounted to a brick wall? It's perfectly acceptable with Dish & Directv. I don't do it because they back charge for a brick mount, but was never given an answer why, other than fact they say it's not an approved mounting surface.
Recovery act was technically ended a long time ago. I still get many of these jobs, they are only available on space way. Recovery act is intended for folks with no other means of internet. Yet I'd say 95% of those I get people do have other means & yes I swapped out a ton of cable modems for hughes on this program.
If people had any sense at all they would avoid Hughes entirely as long as they had other means for internet.



grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief

join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY

said by stardust3:


If people had any sense at all they would avoid Hughes entirely as long as they had other means for internet.

Yet you still take their money, then turn around and badmouth'em on the internet. That's class!!

//greg//
--
HN7000S - 98cm Prodelin/2w "pure" Osiris - ProPlus - G16/1001H - NOC:GTN - NAT 67.142.115.130 - Gateway 66.82.25.10 - DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 15/MSIE9 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2012


diablo1892
R.I.P. Donald Lee Wise

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·HughesNet Satell..
reply to stardust3

said by stardust3:

At least 75% have no clue that caps even exist or that high pings are not good for gaming.

I'v been doing online gaming with this service for quite a while now and most of the games lag, i can tolerate but I know how bad lag can get and when it's just simply a complete waist of time and thats when the ping is touching 3000ms.

If the lag bothers me on my end and gets so annoying then i won't even stay in the server for just 1 whole match. If the lag is annoying to others in the server and it really bothers them and they start saying that i'm a hacker, thats the point when it falls back onto me because the host will literally start video tapping me then after a few minutes of video recording me lag they kick me out and then i try hacking back in (proccess repeats till i'm tired and out of it late at night)
--
HT1000/ 1 watt/ Power Max plan/ 4 pc's on a D-Link wired router/ wireless D-Link router with password
Support only the gaming company's that matter the most, pay for something that actually is worth buying or has a good reason for how much it's worth.