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TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Wiring up an apartment building

A customer of mine is a 2 story apartment building, with 20 apartments, each apartment is 4 bedroom (college kids).

We have wifi now, (unbt Unifi), but the coverage is not enough, and these kids are just sucking too much bandwidth with too many devices.

Rather than running more cat5 for more APs, we do have a cat5 run to each apartment from the IT closet. That line goes to a closet in the apartment itself. That same closet, then has 4 cat5 sitting there, that go to each bedroom.

I was thinking of putting a small router in place in each room, then QoS each router as a client on my main router. Say give each router 10mb, so each apartment has 10mb to do whatever they want with.

I was thinking using RB750UPs and power then via PoE so I can tuck them behind the wall so the students leave them alone, but still do all routing/QoS on the main router, which at the moment is an RB1200.

Thoughts? Suggestions?


thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16

I think the 450's or 450G's have a better reputation that the 750's.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to TheHox

For this the 750s should be fine though, the non UPs are probably more than enough (unless you specifically WANT the 750 to supply power to other devices?)

if one breaks replace it! They are cheap.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Actually I just would like to supply the MT via PoE. The other end will be customer owned devices so no PoE for them.

I figure with the queues I will give each router/apartment 10MB/2MB, they can then fight over the bandwidth with their roommates.

Rather than giving every single device on the network say 5mb/1mb


TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Are any small MT routers 802.3af compliant?

Or what would be a clean/easy way to power 20 of these?



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

said by TheHox:

Are any small MT routers 802.3af compliant?

Or what would be a clean/easy way to power 20 of these?

Isn't there any local power immediately adjacent to the location of the new router(s)?

TheHox

join:2012-05-31

There is.

My thoughts were to do this via PoE so I can place the router behind the wall, keeping it safe from the college students. As long as it is cost effective and stable. Some runs would be 200ft+ in length

If I have to plug in right at the location I can, was just trying to avoid that. I suppose I could plug in and still have the the unit behind the wall.

I just need a source for some PoE injectors that work with the MT or even a switch that would do it.



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to TheHox

The MT routers are passive POE.

Looks like the RB 750 is POE, although the caution indicated above by thewisperer See Profile is worth further research.

»www.amazon.com/WS-POE-8-24v60w-p···sbs_pc_5


jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to TheHox

said by TheHox:

My thoughts were to do this via PoE so I can place the router behind the wall

What about something similar to this: »www.streakwave.com/itemdesc.asp?···&eq=&Tp=

A little more expensive, but you don't have to cut a hole in the wall, it has wireless built-in, and would work with a standard POE switch. Might be cheaper models available.


ilikeme
I live in a van down by the river.
Premium
join:2002-08-27
Sugar Land, TX
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Vonage
reply to TheHox

said by TheHox:

There is.

My thoughts were to do this via PoE so I can place the router behind the wall, keeping it safe from the college students. As long as it is cost effective and stable. Some runs would be 200ft+ in length

If I have to plug in right at the location I can, was just trying to avoid that. I suppose I could plug in and still have the the unit behind the wall.

I just need a source for some PoE injectors that work with the MT or even a switch that would do it.

I would not recommend placing it behind the wall. If it needs to be accessed it would be a pain, plus it would probably be against local codes. Also, I would recommend at least 20mbps with college students, otherwise you will be receiving a lot of complaints about it being slow. I would recommend some sort of centrally controlled service, not individual router controlled, as they can easily be bypassed.
--

Fiber Optics is the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR Fiber Optic Forum

TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Click for full size
I took this picture before everything was finished up. At the moment there is just a plate covering the double gang box, and the wires are inside. (1 home run, 4 to each room)

said by ilikeme:

said by TheHox:

There is.

My thoughts were to do this via PoE so I can place the router behind the wall, keeping it safe from the college students. As long as it is cost effective and stable. Some runs would be 200ft+ in length

If I have to plug in right at the location I can, was just trying to avoid that. I suppose I could plug in and still have the the unit behind the wall.

I just need a source for some PoE injectors that work with the MT or even a switch that would do it.

I would not recommend placing it behind the wall. If it needs to be accessed it would be a pain, plus it would probably be against local codes. Also, I would recommend at least 20mbps with college students, otherwise you will be receiving a lot of complaints about it being slow. I would recommend some sort of centrally controlled service, not individual router controlled, as they can easily be bypassed.

I wouldn't think I would need to physically access it that often, and the rare occasion that I would, taking the 4 screws off the wall cover wouldn't be that bad, compared to having college kids tampering with it. But, I will have to check into the code, you may have a point there.

As per the speed and controlled service, I would have the main router in the IT closet do the QoS/FW/Queues, each router in each room would just get those devices connected and do nothing else.

Rather than allowing every single device say 5mb (thus allowing those with many devices to suck down more BW), I would give each unit/apartment 10-20mbps, and they can figure out how to nicely share it. When one roommate wants to get on XBOX and play a game, he can tell his other roommate to stop downloading porn, so it forces them to share among the room, rather than give every device something tolerable.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to TheHox

The router won't fit in that box. It -could- go in the wall since it is a Class 2 device, but, again, it just won't fit.

I'd suggest using a locking thermostat cover.

»www.homedepot.com/buy/honeywell-···uquQ6OSo

Just to clarify, your intent is to allocate 10/2 to each of these ~20 routers, and that allocation is shared among the 4 bedrooms.

Correct?
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.



ilikeme
I live in a van down by the river.
Premium
join:2002-08-27
Sugar Land, TX
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Vonage
reply to TheHox

Good luck with that. My college apartment had a screwed shut planet for accessing the wiring, that didn't stop me from hooking my servers into it.

As for getting them to share that slow of a connection, that will cause more complaints and problems than its worth. My 2 roommates and I personally have a 50mb FIOS fiber connection and it works great. We had 30 before and at times even that would be slow if we were all streaming movies and/or gaming at the same time.
--

Fiber Optics is the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR Fiber Optic Forum



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

It's my understanding that this is a free service provided to the tenants of the building.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to ilikeme

said by ilikeme:

As for getting them to share that slow of a connection, that will cause more complaints and problems than its worth. My 2 roommates and I personally have a 50mb FIOS fiber connection and it works great. We had 30 before and at times even that would be slow if we were all streaming movies and/or gaming at the same time.

You are depressing. 6 meg DSL for a family here and it seems plenty fast enough for me.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to John Galt

said by John Galt:

It's my understanding that this is a free service provided to the tenants of the building.

If he uses the RB750 as a switch more than anything then there is no benefit to accessing or trying to bypass speed limits. The core RB1200 would do the heavy lifting. In fact the RB250 might be all you need just a switch to connect the 4 rooms.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

said by Inssomniak:

If he uses the RB750 as a switch more than anything then there is no benefit to accessing or trying to bypass speed limits. The core RB1200 would do the heavy lifting. In fact the RB250 might be all you need just a switch to connect the 4 rooms.

Looks like the 250 has POE support also.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31

2 edits
reply to Inssomniak

said by Inssomniak:

said by John Galt:

It's my understanding that this is a free service provided to the tenants of the building.

If he uses the RB750 as a switch more than anything then there is no benefit to accessing or trying to bypass speed limits. The core RB1200 would do the heavy lifting. In fact the RB250 might be all you need just a switch to connect the 4 rooms.

I was just going to use a router and give that router a 10/2.

How would I setup that switch so the users on that switch get a 10/2 connection


ilikeme
I live in a van down by the river.
Premium
join:2002-08-27
Sugar Land, TX
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Vonage

1 recommendation

reply to Inssomniak

said by Inssomniak:

said by ilikeme:

As for getting them to share that slow of a connection, that will cause more complaints and problems than its worth. My 2 roommates and I personally have a 50mb FIOS fiber connection and it works great. We had 30 before and at times even that would be slow if we were all streaming movies and/or gaming at the same time.

You are depressing. 6 meg DSL for a family here and it seems plenty fast enough for me.

How is it depressing? The three of us are film/television majors and constantly uploading and download projects, plus gaming, streaming netflix, etc. Makes the U-Verse VDSL connection at my parents house seem like dial-up when I do work there.
--

Fiber Optics is the future of high-speed internet access. Stop by the BBR Fiber Optic Forum

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1

said by ilikeme:

said by Inssomniak:

said by ilikeme:

As for getting them to share that slow of a connection, that will cause more complaints and problems than its worth. My 2 roommates and I personally have a 50mb FIOS fiber connection and it works great. We had 30 before and at times even that would be slow if we were all streaming movies and/or gaming at the same time.

You are depressing. 6 meg DSL for a family here and it seems plenty fast enough for me.

How is it depressing? The three of us are film/television majors and constantly uploading and download projects, plus gaming, streaming netflix, etc. Makes the U-Verse VDSL connection at my parents house seem like dial-up when I do work there.

Your view is skewed which makes you hardly qualified to be part of this discussion.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to TheHox

said by TheHox:

said by Inssomniak:

said by John Galt:

It's my understanding that this is a free service provided to the tenants of the building.

If he uses the RB750 as a switch more than anything then there is no benefit to accessing or trying to bypass speed limits. The core RB1200 would do the heavy lifting. In fact the RB250 might be all you need just a switch to connect the rooms

I was just going to use a router and give that router a 10/2.

How would I setup that switch so the users on that switch get a 10/2 connection

I would limit at the core router. There are many ways to do it. You could do a PCQ for each IP. Or give the port/interface leading to the RB250 switch a max queue of 10/2. Highly recommended because tenants can't bypass limits and all changes are in one spot. You have 20 rooms. I would get a 24 port switch and vlan each apartment. Dhcp at the core, good to go!
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox

Should I use the rb250 and get some type of poe injector for them?
Or get another switch that is 802.3af compliment so I can use the PoE on my netgear FS726TP



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

UBNT and RB are not 802.3af compliant...they utilize passive POE.

This injector would work:

»www.amazon.com/WS-POE-8-24v60w-p···sbs_pc_5



ilikeme
I live in a van down by the river.
Premium
join:2002-08-27
Sugar Land, TX
kudos:1
reply to wirelessdog

Do explain. I am just providing my point of view as a college student who knows quite a lot about networking and what students are using their connections for these days.



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

said by ilikeme:

Do explain. I am just providing my point of view as a college student who knows quite a lot about networking and what students are using their connections for these days.

The OP is a former college student that is well aware of the issues.

If you want to continue this off-topic discussion, how about taking it to PMs?

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to ilikeme

Yes, college students would love 30mb, or 50mb fios, or more, so would I. But what we are offering them is free basic internet, just like free basic cable TV, that comes with their lease.

If they want upgraded TV service, or upgraded internet service, they can do so, and pay for it.

From us, they will get 10/2, and that itself is not even guaranteed. We only have a 100/10 connection our self.


OHSrob

join:2011-06-08

1 edit
reply to TheHox

I second Inssomniak's recommendation for speed limiting with queues.

We have a deployment that we offer 10/2 on in the apartment building our main pop is in, We have configured the switch with dhcp snooping/arp inspection, Port triggering (aka port isolation). As well as limited the mac address on the switchport to just their router.

We have a /28 subnet dedicated to apartment subscribers.

I plan to migrate this over to pppoe after we get our circuit upgraded to a gigabit. Then I plan to increase the speeds I am offering in the apartment to 50 down 10 up.

edit: We priced our apartment services at $30/mo, Other then one router failure we have had a pretty flawless experience so far with it.


TheHox

join:2012-05-31

So rather than us supplying 20 routers and/or switches, I could just limit the 10/2 on each of the 20 ports of the switch, and let the tenants supply their own router/switch.

That way there is nothing to worry about what they do to what they have access to. Whatever they plug in on the other end of the wire, will only get 10/2? Switch or router?



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

It doesn't matter what they provide on their end...not your responsibility!

You will have to terminate all of the cables in the apartments, though, and you might get calls for equipment support when they can't make their gear work on your system. That might be 'billable'.

So, a mixed bag...