dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
1990
share rss forum feed


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to elwoodblues

Re: R.I.P. Twinkee?

it has nothing to do with "anti-unionism" and everything to do with fiscal reality...i have nothing against unions...what i object to is their "power" to shut a company down and essentially hold them hostage.

here is a story this week regarding the CAW union at the Martinrea plant that makes rear end components for the Chevy Equinox that is assembled at Cami in Ingersoll:

»www.lfpress.com/2012/11/15/marti···mi-plant

had the union not accepted the offer, and chose to go on strike (which they had already refused prior offers, threatening a strike if their timeline wasn't met), it would have jeopardized the 2500 CAW workers at Cami, since they wouldn't be able to make the Equinox vehicles without these components...GM also makes the Equinox at their Spring Hill Tennessee plant, and had apparently stated if there was any disruption of work at the Cami plant, they would shift the production to their Tennessee plant...so, even though a deal was reached in the "11th hour", the 50 or so workers at Martinrea almost jeopardized the 2500 in Ingersoll.

even the local CAW president said they need to work more closely together.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell



loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto

1 recommendation

reply to elwoodblues

Nothing wrong with being anti-Union.
Being pro Union before and now I hate unions. They are like terrorists. They kill factories/companies. Unions has to be crushed.
Unions are like hostage takers or blackmailers but done in legal way.

I hate Toronto Star and Unions and terrorists.


PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

Do you know where the crews from Kitchener went (Kitchener-Wilmot Hydro)? They sent like 20 trucks or so.

Sorry, no.

I actually had need to drive a lot through NJ, NYC, and north of NYC last Friday.

Saw lots of out-of-area workers, but didn't happen to see your guys. This is a huge region of course.

The trouble with the electrical worker union was on eastern Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk counties, east of NYC) AFAIK.

------------------------

I'll tell you what, though, wherever they ended up, the people down here who saw trucks marked "Hydro" would be awfully confused.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to loosedobbs

said by loosedobbs:

Nothing wrong with being anti-Union.
Being pro Union before and now I hate unions. They are like terrorists. They kill factories/companies. Unions has to be crushed.
Unions are like hostage takers or blackmailers but done in legal way.

I hate Toronto Star and Unions and terrorists.

unions did many good things...they still do in some cases (though we don't see much of it any more)...since many of the good things unions did, are now part of the laws and regulations governing business, much of what they do is partly redundant...that said, i have nothing against people joining a union...i do feel that if Ontario ever wants any of its "labour" jobs back, we would need to be a "Right to Work state"...that way, companies wouldn't be held hostage by the workers, but the workers would still be ensured of decent working conditions and a sustainable compensation package.

it's also important to know that the corporate mindset has also changed (for the worse) over the years...many CEOs (etc) think too short term, as they likely know they'll only be there for 5 years...so it's maximize profits, make a shitload of money, move on to the next company...while the top often make a fortune, the company, its customers and its staff suffer...and that is wrong.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Dustyn
Premium
join:2003-02-26
Ontario, CAN
kudos:11
reply to elwoodblues



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to PX Eliezer7

Oddly enough, Kitchener Hydro was at Long Island, not sure if it was at that part. No mention of it in NY papers though..





--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

said by J E F F:

Oddly enough, Kitchener Hydro was at Long Island, not sure if it was at that part. No mention of it in NY papers though.

Ah, well, thanks for the help.

Long Island geographically includes Kings (Brooklyn), Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk counties. Because the first two became part of NYC, most people today just mean Nassau and Suffolk when saying Long Island. But even Nassau and Suffolk have about 2.8 million people.

Anyway, the help was very welcome, I am sure.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to dirtyjeffer

some of the comments in this article are rather interesting.

»www.businessweek.com/news/2012-1···trike#p1

while i am sure the company itself isn't without fault, a lot of people are pretty pissed at the union for what it has become and done to people who, for the most part, just want to work.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to elwoodblues

I tend to think unions are both good and bad. The whole reason they started was because companies had bad working conditions, low wages etc.. (While making pretty big profits). I still think there's a use for unions today. There are still many companies making a killing but pay their employees sweet **** all.

The problem is that many unions aren't flexble. They're like a rolling snowball, always wanting more. Even when the company they work for is having a hard time maintaining operations. The union my dad is a part of accept a 10% wage rollback in an attempt to help the company get out of creditor protection. Which seams to have worked for now. Unfortunately many unions don't do things like and the company folds.

Without unions we have many large companies making cash hand over fist. Meanwhile the employee benefits/wages are pretty meh. I think real wages have gone down in the last 20-30 years?

It's a bit of a condundrum. Without unions, the corporations have all the power. With unions, the unions have all the power. It's virtually impossible to strike a balance.



Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

Do you know where the crews from Kitchener went (Kitchener-Wilmot Hydro)? They sent like 20 trucks or so. I don't think the city owned utility would be up to paying some damned union 22% from their workers wages...

I saw a lot of hydro trucks from that area on the thruway a couple weeks ago.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to zod5000

said by zod5000:
I tend to think unions are both good and bad. The whole reason they started was because companies had bad working conditions, low wages etc.. (While making pretty big profits). I still think there's a use for unions today. There are still many companies making a killing but pay their employees sweet **** all.
the reality is, if a company doesn't pay very much money, that will be reflected in the workers they get...for example, if the company zod5000 pays its workers $15/hr, you will get "$15/hr type of workers"...if your positions require trades (etc), you will likely get first year or inexperienced workers...that will be reflected in your product or service...now, if the company zod5000 wants to offer the best product/service, part of which requires top tier staff, you offer more money when you hire, to attract better quality workers...that's how the real world works.

quote:
It's a bit of a condundrum. Without unions, the corporations have all the power. With unions, the unions have all the power. It's virtually impossible to strike a balance.

it's impossible with the inflexible unions and degraded corporate ethics we have here...look at Germany...plenty of unions, and companies make good money...but the unions there (and companies) work together for the better of both...here, it's an "us vs them" mentality, and that simply doesn't work because each side is out to fuck over the other...it's what has happened because of how the relationship between the two has been the past few decades.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario
kudos:1
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Those referral fees were a great way to make money.

sure. . . if racketeering is your gig.

Sukunai
Premium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1
Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to elwoodblues

Once upon a time unions were vital were needed and did a lot to improve.

Now, a union is just an equal to an uncaring management. But the one thing the Unions will never have, is an answer to when a company does what it did.

Ok we quit. And we all know the top execs will still have value in the corporate world. And we know the assets will just get bought up by another company. Eventually those assets will need workers, but, the workers will be all starting from scatch in a lot of cases.

Sometimes unions are their own worst enemy. They are not the vital and needed element they were when they first appeared. Now they are just another variation of burden for joe nobody worker.



milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

the reality is, if a company doesn't pay very much money, that will be reflected in the workers they get...for example, if the company zod5000 pays its workers $15/hr, you will get "$15/hr type of workers"...if your positions require trades (etc), you will likely get first year or inexperienced workers...that will be reflected in your product or service...now, if the company zod5000 wants to offer the best product/service, part of which requires top tier staff, you offer more money when you hire, to attract better quality workers...that's how the real world works.

Or you outsource to China where you have a highly skilled labour force, low wages and no unions.

Ever wondered where many of the ingredients from packaged foods comes from?
--
Watch my future television channel's public test broadcast!
»thecanadianpublic.com/live


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Kalford

said by Kalford:

said by DKS:

Those referral fees were a great way to make money.

sure. . . if racketeering is your gig.

Curious why you would say that. The practice is legal. In the private sector it's called a "commission".
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to zod5000

said by zod5000:

The problem is that many unions aren't flexble.

Neither are corporations. Look at what Cat did to London.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by DKS:

said by zod5000:

The problem is that many unions aren't flexble.

Neither are corporations. Look at what Cat did to London.

CAT made somewhat reasonable offers (albeit starting offers), but they knew full well the Union would refuse ANY concessions...CAT had no plans to keep this plant anyway...the fact it didn't close 15 years ago was a gift to the union.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Curious why you would say that. The practice is legal. In the private sector it's called a "commission".

Regardless of the name, what is the fee for?

I honestly have no idea what that's about.


Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario
kudos:1
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

said by Kalford:

said by DKS:

Those referral fees were a great way to make money.

sure. . . if racketeering is your gig.

Curious why you would say that. The practice is legal. In the private sector it's called a "commission".

Suuuuure it is. . . and when the mafia goes in demanding a 22% cut of storekeepers' profits . . .they're merely getting their "commissions" too.


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to dirtyjeffer

DJ their starting offer was a 50% reduction in salary, hardly a reasonable starting point. Now that they have closed the plant, built a new one (with some peachy local tax breaks) and cut their labour costs in half, they still sell the locomotives for the same price.


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

said by zod5000:
I tend to think unions are both good and bad. The whole reason they started was because companies had bad working conditions, low wages etc.. (While making pretty big profits). I still think there's a use for unions today. There are still many companies making a killing but pay their employees sweet **** all.
the reality is, if a company doesn't pay very much money, that will be reflected in the workers they get...for example, if the company zod5000 pays its workers $15/hr, you will get "$15/hr type of workers"...if your positions require trades (etc), you will likely get first year or inexperienced workers...that will be reflected in your product or service...now, if the company zod5000 wants to offer the best product/service, part of which requires top tier staff, you offer more money when you hire, to attract better quality workers...that's how the real world works.

I tend to disagree. I think corporations are more focused on profit than quality products. They want to make the biggest gap between production costs and sales that they can. That doesn't always result in wanting the best product made by the best workers.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by zod5000:

I think corporations are more focused on profit than quality products.

I'd say such a comment is erroneous as you're applying your ideology standpoint as a blanket statement against 'corporations' when it varies between company. Some companies need to put out a quality product for various reasons and other companies are proud to put out quality products and other companies have procedural standards to ensure they do so, especially corporations that produce ingredients used by other corporations.

I've been to large corporations where those motto banners they have on the wall are a widespread sentiment shared by everyone at the company from the top down.

I think the biggest problem we have is what a person considers when they think "corporation". Some have turned the word into something other than what it literally means.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to elwoodblues

Regardless there is no redeaming value to any of the crap products they produce. Good riddance! Tobacco companies please disappear next.



Xstar_Lumini

join:2008-12-14
Canada
kudos:2
reply to ekster

Now I know why I have seen facebook pics of my friends stacking up on the product....



Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Those referral fees were a great way to make money. Toronto District School Board had those kind of fees until recently.

"Making money"?. That's called legalized parasitic extortion.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to elwoodblues

"U.S. judge urges Twinkie maker and union to talk things out"

»www.thestar.com/business/article···ings-out



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Thane_Bitter

said by Thane_Bitter:
DJ their starting offer was a 50% reduction in salary, hardly a reasonable starting point.
it was a 50% reduction in salary to standard assembly workers, not everyone...the skilled tradesmen there were offered something like $33/hr, down from $35/hr...the assembly workers (most of them) were your general "high school" educated "factory workers"...would it suck to go from $35/hr to $17.50...of course it would...but the union is the ones who pushed up general labour wages to trades people incomes...now none of them work there.

quote:
Now that they have closed the plant, built a new one (with some peachy local tax breaks) and cut their labour costs in half, they still sell the locomotives for the same price.

the new plant in Indiana was there for a year prior to London closing...many of the workers from London were transferred to Indiana to train the workers down there on how to do the work...as well, when the London plant originally opened, it took assembly jobs away from the Illinois plant (GM Diesel back in the day) to take advantage of the lower dollar at the time as well as help procure various government contracts.

we discussed all of this in the EMD thread earlier this year.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Thane_Bitter

said by Thane_Bitter:

DJ their starting offer was a 50% reduction in salary, hardly a reasonable starting point.

i was looking for it and found the offer:

»www.thecomingdepression.net/wp-c···2011.pdf

skilled trades were $34/hr, production workers (basic labour) were $16.50-$22/hr...as i said before, had the wages not ballooned over the years, perhaps they would all still have jobs...the cost of the trades wasn't the problem, it was the basic labour workers pay that was the deal breaker.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON

While I won't dispute that these people were probably overpaid for what their skillset was, I'd like to see you take a cut in pay of 50% and tell me that you just had to suck it up for the good of the company.
--
Tom



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by TLS2000:

While I won't dispute that these people were probably overpaid for what their skillset was, I'd like to see you take a cut in pay of 50% and tell me that you just had to suck it up for the good of the company.

that's not what i was saying at all...i was simply saying that had their wages not got out of control in the first place, it is quite possible none of that would have happened...in the case of the EMD workers, perhaps if the regular labour workers were making $22/hr, they might still be there (doubtful, but possible)...if the offer for concessions was made, going from $22/hr to $17 isn't as big of a drop as going from $37 to $16.50...as well, if they were making $22/hr, it is quite possible there might be other opportunities for them to work elsewhere at or close to that pay...not at $37/hr though...those jobs no longer exist.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell