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Mark
I stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada

Mark to dirtyjeffer0

Member

to dirtyjeffer0

Re: R.I.P. Twinkee?

And their union, the caw had zero interest in negotiating such a precedent with the big 3 contracts about to expire.

Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium Member
join:2005-01-20

Thane_Bitter to dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

to dirtyjeffer0
You are ignoring is the other changes in the contract which serverly cut or completley eliminated certain programs and benfits. EMD had no interest in keeping the plant, had the workers agreeed to the cut they still would have been out of work soon after.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

said by Thane_Bitter:

You are ignoring is the other changes in the contract which serverly cut or completley eliminated certain programs and benfits. EMD had no interest in keeping the plant, had the workers agreeed to the cut they still would have been out of work soon after.

the offer sheet i posted has the details of coverage...the coverages are what most would consider "somewhat average" for the private sector...but i don't disagree with you about the closing of the plant...that plant hasn't made a dime since the mid-80s...the fact it wasn't closed in the 90s is a bigger surprise than when it closed earlier this year.

and speaking of plant closures, depending on what happens with the upcoming contract negotiations, things could get tense at Cami.

»www.lfpress.com/2012/11/ ··· -new-car

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to loosedobbs

Premium Member

to loosedobbs
said by loosedobbs:

"U.S. judge urges Twinkie maker and union to talk things out"

»www.thestar.com/business ··· ings-out

They talked for 1 day and then called it quits. The judge just OK'd the breakup of Hostess.
»www.foxnews.com/us/2012/ ··· +Text%29

capdjq
Be Kind, Be Calm & Be Safe
Premium Member
join:2000-11-01
Vancouver

capdjq

Premium Member

said by FFH5:

said by loosedobbs:

"U.S. judge urges Twinkie maker and union to talk things out"

»www.thestar.com/business ··· ings-out

They talked for 1 day and then called it quits. The judge just OK'd the breakup of Hostess.
»www.foxnews.com/us/2012/ ··· +Text%29

Even the makers of the Drug Companies such as the makers of Lipitor, Plavix and Crestor petitioned the Judge saying it would affect their sales.
I guess they were unsuccessful.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc

Member

There's already massive hoarding happening of the remaining Twinkies on store shelves.

Which means, even if we do have a nuclear war someday, there won't be a single Twinkie left before the war even starts!

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
Yep. With the brand names/trademarks sold off of the highest bidder to pay the secured creditors, and production almost certainly transferred to non-union bakeries. The Hostess name still has goodwill value.

A money-losing operation can't continue indefinitely, so a combination of revenue increase and/or cost cuts is required. The former was not possible in this case, so the latter was the only option. A hard lesson to learn for management and the unions. Short term pain for long term gain.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to milnoc

MVM

to milnoc
said by milnoc:

There's already massive hoarding happening of the remaining Twinkies on store shelves.

Which means, even if we do have a nuclear war someday, there won't be a single Twinkie left before the war even starts!

No, we'd be fine. The twinkie brand and recipe is owned by Saputo in Canada, who are unaffected by anything that happens in the US. Twinkies are still being made and sold in Canada.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc

Member

Which means the All-American snack cake is now owned by a Canadian firm.

Coming soon: Twinkies with cheese curd filling! The only sponge cake that squeaks when you chew it!

ekster
Hi there
Premium Member
join:2010-07-16
Sainte-Anne-De-Bellevue, QC

ekster

Premium Member

Cheese curds and gravy? Mmm....

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to elwoodblues

MVM

to elwoodblues
The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them. But the point is that we Canadians are unaffected.

Of course, I've never eaten a twinkie, nor have I ever seen them in a store, despite the fact they're made in Montreal (or at least the headquarters is here)...
PX Eliezer704
Premium Member
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River

PX Eliezer704

Premium Member

said by Guspaz:

The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them.

Send us Twinkies and we'll send you mozzarella cheese!
PX Eliezer704

PX Eliezer704 to Guspaz

Premium Member

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them. But the point is that we Canadians are unaffected.

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc

Member

We can still eat the Canadian equivalent, a vanilla half-moon. Also available in chocolate.

I remember tasting a Twinkie once.

Only once.

Yuck.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to PX Eliezer704

MVM

to PX Eliezer704
said by PX Eliezer704:

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.

Unless Saputo is being very misleading with their wording, they don't license the rights under contract, they bought them outright. So no contract would be involved.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to milnoc

Premium Member

to milnoc
said by milnoc:

We can still eat the Canadian equivalent, a vanilla half-moon. Also available in chocolate.

I used to eat those Vachon beauties daily. And the flaky pastry ones too.

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger to donoreo

Premium Member

to donoreo
I realize your point applies specifically to the union(s) associated with Hostess.

However, I read especially in the US of disproportionate and IMO an over characterization of unions, lumping them all into the same category as being unreasonable, greedy, and the cause of many fiscal problems both private and public.

But there are all ways two sides to a story. for instance a long-time friend of mine is a 767 Captain for Delta Airlines. He hired on with them about 25 years ago.

Some years back Delta told their employees in general but I am referring specifically to the pilots and their union that they needed to make serious salary cutback consideration to save the company from filing a BK and going under. Eventually the pilots gave through their union gave up 35-40 percent of the salary!

A couple of years later Delta filed a BK anyway. The resulting BK emergence ended up with including the previous 35-40 percent pay cut an additional pay cut to bring the total cut to 50 percent. It even got worse then that as the pilots entire pension plan was forfeited or liquidated and the pilots lost their entire pension. I haven't talked to him for a while but unless something dramatic has changed when my friend retires he gets no pension.

So when talking about unions there is more than one story and there is no such thing as stereotype union or mindset of unions.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

perhaps if the pilot wasn't in the union (i know, not possible, but just for fun), and instead had a defined contribution pension instead of a defined benefit, he wouldn't find himself empty handed now...a lot of people in unions are finding themselves in that very situation.

TLS2000
Premium Member
join:2004-02-24
Elmsdale, NS

TLS2000

Premium Member

Or perhaps if the company had better planned, the benefits that they promised to the union would still be there.

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger to dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

to dirtyjeffer0
Based upon the responses I think that dirtyjeffer and TLS2000 may have misunderstood the facts:

The union made voluntary concessions by having its members take deep pay cuts, 35-40 percent because the company said that was what was necessary to save the company from going bankrupt and out of business.

Then a couple of years later the company still filed bankruptcy. In the bankruptcy proceeding per the order of the court and the bk process the pensions were liquidated and eliminated to pay creditors. When the company reorganized no pension benefits or plan were reestablished.

So in this particular individual case neither the pilots or their union did anything wrong or irresponsible except trusting the company or taking them at their word. It was the union and the pilots that made concessions and took cuts and besides getting the shaft in that area got another shaft when the company declared the BK.

Other employees for the airline besides the pilots were affected negatively too but I don't know the details--only those affecting the pilots.

Or to restate it, the pilots, (and I presume the other employees), would have better not to make any concessions and let the company file the BK. In all likelihood they would have come out much better off than they were by making the concessions.

TLS2000
Premium Member
join:2004-02-24
Elmsdale, NS
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
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TLS2000

Premium Member

I didn't misunderstand anything, thank you.

DJ spewed his anti-union vitriol and I correctly pointed out that the company shouldn't be promising things to the union that it can't deliver. The bankruptcy filing is proof that the company couldn't deliver.

In all honesty, the lack of long term planning is what is killing off companies with defined benefit plans. All the fat cats on the top keep getting fat and the company ends up going bankrupt at the expense of the employees and the shareholders. Shareholders need to take a longer view on their returns or this will keep happening.

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger

Premium Member

Major commercial airlines going out of business or being bought out by a competitor is a decades long tradition in the United States.

Most major commercial airlines in the US losing money all most every year goes back to 1978, the the year of airline deregulation.

Frankly why anyone would want to invest in an airline with rare exceptions like Southwest Airlines is beyond my limited financial understanding of the world of stocks and Wall Street, etc.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy to Guspaz

Premium Member

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

said by PX Eliezer704:

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.

Unless Saputo is being very misleading with their wording, they don't license the rights under contract, they bought them outright. So no contract would be involved.

Reading Directly from the box of Twinkies.

"Hostess is part of the Saputo family of products"....

I'm guessing they bought out the Canadian subsiduary of Hostess and rolled it into their own, so I think they're in the clear....much like when Kmart was separate in Canada vs the US and Kmart Canada got sold to HBC....that's my best guess on this one is that they may stay around in Canada anyways...

EDIT: looking at a wikipedia article, it could turn out that Saputo cranks out Twinkies for the US/Global market should Hostess brands in the US fail....so they did sell the Canadian rights to Saputo it turns out...

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to TLS2000

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to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

DJ spewed his anti-union vitriol and I correctly pointed out that the company shouldn't be promising things to the union that it can't deliver. The bankruptcy filing is proof that the company couldn't deliver.

no "anti-union" vitriol...just pointing out that many people who planned on having a nest egg, no longer have it, because the company goes belly up...had they stashed away their own money, with top ups from the company, they would still have something...sorry if posting facts is considered "anti-union vitriol".

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to elwoodblues

MVM

to elwoodblues
I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes, but without the Hostess branding that they're supposed to have (they were Vachon branding). But no twinkies. And if you look at Vachon's website, they don't list the twinkie as a product.

But I've seen pictures of Canadian twinkie boxes....

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

Blogger

Premium Member

said by Guspaz:

I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes,

When I was a kid the product that put Hostess treats on the map was their devils food chocolate covered cupcakes.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy to Guspaz

Premium Member

to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes, but without the Hostess branding that they're supposed to have (they were Vachon branding). But no twinkies. And if you look at Vachon's website, they don't list the twinkie as a product.

But I've seen pictures of Canadian twinkie boxes....

As I wrote above, Twinkees are a part of Saputo, not Vachon . Maybe Guspaz has me on ignore?

So, I'm not sure which grocery store or type you went to I found mine at the Chartrand's Your Independent Grocer...which is I believe part of Loblaws group....

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc

Member

Saputo owns Vachon, bought out when Vachon was about to go bankrupt itself.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to elwoodblues

MVM

to elwoodblues
Yeah, they're a subsidiary, and Vachon makes all the other snackcake products, so you'd expect them to make it too. Regardless, Saputo has no info on their website either.

I guess I can only keep trying different supermarkets.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
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join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

you aren't missing much...seriously, as the company mentioned, part of the "problem" is many people are more aware of what they eat...a twinkee on its own isn't going to hurt you, but if you eat a couple a day at every lunch, that's a different story.