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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

Re: R.I.P. Twinkee?

The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them. But the point is that we Canadians are unaffected.

Of course, I've never eaten a twinkie, nor have I ever seen them in a store, despite the fact they're made in Montreal (or at least the headquarters is here)...
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
said by Guspaz:

The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them.

Send us Twinkies and we'll send you mozzarella cheese!

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

The American rights are still with Hostess until sold, Saputo only has the Canadian rights. Which means that they can't export Twinkies to the US, unless Americans smuggle them. But the point is that we Canadians are unaffected.

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
We can still eat the Canadian equivalent, a vanilla half-moon. Also available in chocolate.

I remember tasting a Twinkie once.

Only once.

Yuck.
--
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»thecanadianpublic.com/live


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.

Unless Saputo is being very misleading with their wording, they don't license the rights under contract, they bought them outright. So no contract would be involved.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to milnoc
said by milnoc:

We can still eat the Canadian equivalent, a vanilla half-moon. Also available in chocolate.

I used to eat those Vachon beauties daily. And the flaky pastry ones too.


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
reply to donoreo
I realize your point applies specifically to the union(s) associated with Hostess.

However, I read especially in the US of disproportionate and IMO an over characterization of unions, lumping them all into the same category as being unreasonable, greedy, and the cause of many fiscal problems both private and public.

But there are all ways two sides to a story. for instance a long-time friend of mine is a 767 Captain for Delta Airlines. He hired on with them about 25 years ago.

Some years back Delta told their employees in general but I am referring specifically to the pilots and their union that they needed to make serious salary cutback consideration to save the company from filing a BK and going under. Eventually the pilots gave through their union gave up 35-40 percent of the salary!

A couple of years later Delta filed a BK anyway. The resulting BK emergence ended up with including the previous 35-40 percent pay cut an additional pay cut to bring the total cut to 50 percent. It even got worse then that as the pilots entire pension plan was forfeited or liquidated and the pilots lost their entire pension. I haven't talked to him for a while but unless something dramatic has changed when my friend retires he gets no pension.

So when talking about unions there is more than one story and there is no such thing as stereotype union or mindset of unions.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
perhaps if the pilot wasn't in the union (i know, not possible, but just for fun), and instead had a defined contribution pension instead of a defined benefit, he wouldn't find himself empty handed now...a lot of people in unions are finding themselves in that very situation.


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
Or perhaps if the company had better planned, the benefits that they promised to the union would still be there.
--
Tom


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
reply to dirtyjeffer
Based upon the responses I think that dirtyjeffer and TLS2000 may have misunderstood the facts:

The union made voluntary concessions by having its members take deep pay cuts, 35-40 percent because the company said that was what was necessary to save the company from going bankrupt and out of business.

Then a couple of years later the company still filed bankruptcy. In the bankruptcy proceeding per the order of the court and the bk process the pensions were liquidated and eliminated to pay creditors. When the company reorganized no pension benefits or plan were reestablished.

So in this particular individual case neither the pilots or their union did anything wrong or irresponsible except trusting the company or taking them at their word. It was the union and the pilots that made concessions and took cuts and besides getting the shaft in that area got another shaft when the company declared the BK.

Other employees for the airline besides the pilots were affected negatively too but I don't know the details--only those affecting the pilots.

Or to restate it, the pilots, (and I presume the other employees), would have better not to make any concessions and let the company file the BK. In all likelihood they would have come out much better off than they were by making the concessions.


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
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Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
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I didn't misunderstand anything, thank you.

DJ spewed his anti-union vitriol and I correctly pointed out that the company shouldn't be promising things to the union that it can't deliver. The bankruptcy filing is proof that the company couldn't deliver.

In all honesty, the lack of long term planning is what is killing off companies with defined benefit plans. All the fat cats on the top keep getting fat and the company ends up going bankrupt at the expense of the employees and the shareholders. Shareholders need to take a longer view on their returns or this will keep happening.
--
Tom


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
Major commercial airlines going out of business or being bought out by a competitor is a decades long tradition in the United States.

Most major commercial airlines in the US losing money all most every year goes back to 1978, the the year of airline deregulation.

Frankly why anyone would want to invest in an airline with rare exceptions like Southwest Airlines is beyond my limited financial understanding of the world of stocks and Wall Street, etc.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

said by PX Eliezer70:

It's possible that a bankruptcy court might terminate that contract.

Or the contract may even have a built-in termination clause if either company goes under.

Unless Saputo is being very misleading with their wording, they don't license the rights under contract, they bought them outright. So no contract would be involved.

Reading Directly from the box of Twinkies.

"Hostess is part of the Saputo family of products"....

I'm guessing they bought out the Canadian subsiduary of Hostess and rolled it into their own, so I think they're in the clear....much like when Kmart was separate in Canada vs the US and Kmart Canada got sold to HBC....that's my best guess on this one is that they may stay around in Canada anyways...

EDIT: looking at a wikipedia article, it could turn out that Saputo cranks out Twinkies for the US/Global market should Hostess brands in the US fail....so they did sell the Canadian rights to Saputo it turns out...


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

DJ spewed his anti-union vitriol and I correctly pointed out that the company shouldn't be promising things to the union that it can't deliver. The bankruptcy filing is proof that the company couldn't deliver.

no "anti-union" vitriol...just pointing out that many people who planned on having a nest egg, no longer have it, because the company goes belly up...had they stashed away their own money, with top ups from the company, they would still have something...sorry if posting facts is considered "anti-union vitriol".
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues
I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes, but without the Hostess branding that they're supposed to have (they were Vachon branding). But no twinkies. And if you look at Vachon's website, they don't list the twinkie as a product.

But I've seen pictures of Canadian twinkie boxes....
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Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
said by Guspaz:

I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes,

When I was a kid the product that put Hostess treats on the map was their devils food chocolate covered cupcakes.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

I went to the grocery store to see if I could buy a box of twinkies. I've never had any before.

I found an entire section dedicated to Vachon products (their banner was even at the top of the shelving). I did find a few Hostess products like swiss rolls and chocolate cupcakes, but without the Hostess branding that they're supposed to have (they were Vachon branding). But no twinkies. And if you look at Vachon's website, they don't list the twinkie as a product.

But I've seen pictures of Canadian twinkie boxes....

As I wrote above, Twinkees are a part of Saputo, not Vachon . Maybe Guspaz has me on ignore?

So, I'm not sure which grocery store or type you went to I found mine at the Chartrand's Your Independent Grocer...which is I believe part of Loblaws group....


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
Saputo owns Vachon, bought out when Vachon was about to go bankrupt itself.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues
Yeah, they're a subsidiary, and Vachon makes all the other snackcake products, so you'd expect them to make it too. Regardless, Saputo has no info on their website either.

I guess I can only keep trying different supermarkets.
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
you aren't missing much...seriously, as the company mentioned, part of the "problem" is many people are more aware of what they eat...a twinkee on its own isn't going to hurt you, but if you eat a couple a day at every lunch, that's a different story.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues
Sure, but it's become such a pop culture icon that I want to at least be able to say I've tried one.
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
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·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to dirtyjeffer
You specifically mentioned "perhaps if the pilot wasn't in the union". There was absolutely nothing stopping that pilot from saving his own nest egg. There was absolutely nothing stopping the company from saying "Hey guys, we can't afford to give you defined benefits. You'll have to have defined contribution instead."

Both parties are at fault, but the company should ultimately be the one that says no.

Unions are powerful, but only because the companies they work for have allowed them to become that powerful. Unions and corporations really need to start working together to improve all parties involved.
--
Tom


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
said by TLS2000:
You specifically mentioned "perhaps if the pilot wasn't in the union".
not as a slight against the union, but said in a way that he would have been 100% responsible for his own retirement savings, rather than rely on a promise, which has since dissolved.

quote:
There was absolutely nothing stopping that pilot from saving his own nest egg.
true, but if you have been told the past 30 years there is this nice retirement package waiting for you after your decades of service, you are likely counting on that as your retirement income.

quote:
There was absolutely nothing stopping the company from saying "Hey guys, we can't afford to give you defined benefits. You'll have to have defined contribution instead."
many companies have said that, and continue to do...many unions have found that to be a sticking point, and often refuse it (at least on existing members).

quote:
Both parties are at fault, but the company should ultimately be the one that says no.
they have, and long strikes have been the result...those long strikes benefit no one...the company often loses money during the strike and the employees lose pay while being on strike (i don't count strike pay, as it is marginal).

quote:
Unions are powerful, but only because the companies they work for have allowed them to become that powerful.
well, after being held hostage, correct...however, that isn't a very equitable situation.

quote:
Unions and corporations really need to start working together to improve all parties involved.

i have said that all along...look at the unions in Germany...the auto companies there have workers who make really good money, but the unions foster a more co-operative environment rather than the "us versus them" mentality that is often the case here...that said, i have been seeing some unions working together better.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell