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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to John Galt

Re: Another Edition of "What's Wrong With This Picture?&quo

said by John Galt:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

That was then, this is now.

I'll agree, though, it all comes down to competent supervision.

You also need workers intelligent and engaged enough to supervise.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
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said by Jack_in_VA:

You also need workers intelligent and engaged enough to supervise.

I'll agree with that also.


leibold
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join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder if John Galt ever laced the bundles before the wimp cable ties were invented?

I have laced communication cables (too many to count) but don't recall ever lacing power cables. I remember learning cable lacing still with organic fiber twine (a special treatment gave it a deep red color) but by the time I did actual installations it was already all waxed polyester.

As for the ty-wrap tools, even the cheap knock-off ones save some effort and produce a more uniform result. I would probably not go and fetch it from the toolbox for just one or two quick cable ties (depending on just how far away the toolbox happens to be) but I'd certainly do it for a dozen or more.
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Jack_in_VA
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·Millenicom

1 edit

said by leibold:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder if John Galt ever laced the bundles before the wimp cable ties were invented?

I have laced communication cables (too many to count) but don't recall ever lacing power cables. I remember learning cable lacing still with organic fiber twine (a special treatment gave it a deep red color) but by the time I did actual installations it was already all waxed polyester.

As for the ty-wrap tools, even the cheap knock-off ones save some effort and produce a more uniform result. I would probably not go and fetch it from the toolbox for just one or two quick cable ties (depending on just how far away the toolbox happens to be) but I'd certainly do it for a dozen or more.

How did you hold them together? The lacing was a little heavier duty but still tied the cables together. Control panels and MCC's were full of laced bundles.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to LazMan

I used to use a Ty-Wrap tool. Besides cutting off the tail, it made sure the tension was correct. I lost the tool many years ago.

My ex-brother-in-law worked for T&B and had patents for some of the Ty-Wrap products.



leibold
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Sunnyvale, CA
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reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

How did you hold them together?

I don't recall ever lacing either AC power cable or the main DC bus cables (to the battery backup rooms). As far as I can recall those cables always ran loosely placed in enclosed raceways (usually with removable lids). The only tying of the AC cables was the strain relief at the end.

In datacenter wiring I have placed AC power cables in overhead power troughs (again loosely placed without tying). The only time they got tied down (with ty-wraps, not lacing) was when the power cables ran across an overhead cable ladder. Even then the power cables were not bundled up but tied individually to ladder rungs (side by side).

I'm not saying that lacing of power cables never happened, just that I'm not familiar with it (having never done it myself). I would think that it is more desirable to allow power cables to dissipate heat then to neatly bundle them together (which would allow heat to build up inside the bundle).
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Jack_in_VA
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What did you use before tyraps? I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc. Surely you didn't have a spaghetti bowl of wires going all directions.
Maybe I should ask how old are you. Perhaps tyraps existed when you came along.



leibold
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·SONIC.NET

said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc.

The topic of this thread was power cables. I'm sure industrial control systems at that time did lace the wiring but that is not something I ever did.

As for my age, old enough to have done cable splices with hammer and blow torch
PILC (paper insulated lead-shielded cable) telco dry-core cable. The hammer was used to shape a shell from a sheet of lead (fitting it to the size of the splice) and the blow torch was used to solder it around the cable ends.
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nunya
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O Fallon, MO
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reply to Jack_in_VA

I learned the fine art of cable lacing from Ma Bell. They had a real hard-on for that kind of shit at the phone company. When they decided cosmic frames would be the panacea to the old MDF, ty-wraps has come out. Those could only be used on poly jacketed cables, so the individual pairs were still laced all through the backside.

I agree about the ty-wrap tool - it's a gimmick. Panduit was literally giving them away years ago and I still have one somewhere.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.



Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

The quality man I worked for at Nortel had a pair of panty hose with him at all times... He'd run it across the head of the Ty-wraps - if they caught or snagged, that was a safety 'major' - 3 majors on a job, and you got a week off to think about it.

If that's a safety "major", my fingernails could be deadly some days.


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

Hi Jack,

I'm inclined to agree with you but you're oversimplifying a bit. It does seem to be an unfortunate truth that the current generation and younger folks I encounter in the field performing skilled trades are far less skilled then their predecessors. I often attribute this to a lack of interest in the task they are performing. They never bothered to truly UNDERSTAND what it is they are doing -- rather then tend to memorize certain things and simply repeat them. But that's a whole different topic.

What you seem to be missing regarding spec'd tools like torque screwdrivers is the application they're being used for. Bear in mind technological advances have resulted in increasingly complex devices and equipment that demand a new level of precision. Think about the modern aircraft flying over your family's home. Would you want the skilled and tenured aviation electrician to rely on his arthritic "calibrated" hands or a certified torque wrench when performing maintenance on that airframe?


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to leibold

said by leibold:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc.

The topic of this thread was power cables. I'm sure industrial control systems at that time did lace the wiring but that is not something I ever did.

As for my age, old enough to have done cable splices with hammer and blow torch
PILC (paper insulated lead-shielded cable) telco dry-core cable. The hammer was used to shape a shell from a sheet of lead (fitting it to the size of the splice) and the blow torch was used to solder it around the cable ends.

Extension cords are now classified as power cables? Ok I have no clue as to what you would classify the other wires as. I've seen wires in service panels laced very neatly. I would classify them as "power cables".


Jack_in_VA
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join:2007-11-26
North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I learned the fine art of cable lacing from Ma Bell. They had a real hard-on for that kind of shit at the phone company. When they decided cosmic frames would be the panacea to the old MDF, ty-wraps has come out. Those could only be used on poly jacketed cables, so the individual pairs were still laced all through the backside.

I agree about the ty-wrap tool - it's a gimmick. Panduit was literally giving them away years ago and I still have one somewhere.

Telco cabinets and electrical control panels that were laced were beautiful to see.


Jack_in_VA
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join:2007-11-26
North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to pike

said by pike:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

Hi Jack,

I'm inclined to agree with you but you're oversimplifying a bit. It does seem to be an unfortunate truth that the current generation and younger folks I encounter in the field performing skilled trades are far less skilled then their predecessors. I often attribute this to a lack of interest in the task they are performing. They never bothered to truly UNDERSTAND what it is they are doing -- rather then tend to memorize certain things and simply repeat them. But that's a whole different topic.

What you seem to be missing regarding spec'd tools like torque screwdrivers is the application they're being used for. Bear in mind technological advances have resulted in increasingly complex devices and equipment that demand a new level of precision. Think about the modern aircraft flying over your family's home. Would you want the skilled and tenured aviation electrician to rely on his arthritic "calibrated" hands or a certified torque wrench when performing maintenance on that airframe?

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, we built rockets, we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.


Cho Baka
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said by Jack_in_VA:

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, German ex-pat scientists helped us build rockets plus Atomic and Hydrogen bombs and we dropped the bombs on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.

Corrected for posterity.
--
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kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
reply to Jack_in_VA


I worked on a 1.6Gwatt power plant. All the panels and trays(proper term??) were a sight to see. Miles and miles of wire. I wish I had the concession on zip ties, thousands and thousands of them.


nonymous
Premium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by John Galt:

said by Critsmcgee:

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!

If you are doing professional electrical work on high-tech industrial projects, you can find the requirement in the specifications for the project.

The other requirement you can find is for torque screwdrivers.

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

I went from electric utility helper to telco. The torque required on telco wires is nothing. Maybe the cases etc, but on the wiring nothing. Coming from heavy gauge aluminum to telco for the first week in training I broke every connection. Fortuneatly the first week was class room only.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
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reply to drew

There are far more stringent quality controls in place now...especially if you're terminating switchgear and panels that have $100M or more worth of technology tools attached.

The risk is too great.



Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by John Galt:

There are far more stringent quality controls in place now...especially if you're terminating switchgear and panels that have $100M or more worth of technology tools attached.

The risk is too great.

"100M adjusted for inflation".


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

We built automobiles

That took generations of development before being more convenient than horses or trains.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built airplanes

That were built with flat glass cockpit windows that tended to cave in under wind pressure.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built rockets,

Most of them failed at the beginning, evetually they did use proper tools, tools that cost someone's house, but hey, cold war and space race had no budget!

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan.

I doubt today's electrician should be measured up to the top american scientists during the peak of WW2.

Yes technical knowledge matters a lot.
Problem is... the tools made it that we don't screw up to learn the technical knowledge from experience


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by alkizmo:

said by Jack_in_VA:

We built automobiles

That took generations of development before being more convenient than horses or trains.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built airplanes

That were built with flat glass cockpit windows that tended to cave in under wind pressure.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built rockets,

Most of them failed at the beginning, evetually they did use proper tools, tools that cost someone's house, but hey, cold war and space race had no budget!

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan.

I doubt today's electrician should be measured up to the top american scientists during the peak of WW2.

Yes technical knowledge matters a lot.
Problem is... the tools made it that we don't screw up to learn the technical knowledge from experience

We Americans built many things some bad but the net good advanced us to the worlds greatest superpower. Not bad I'd say. Problem today? The younger generation has no clue if a keyboard is not involved. I know youngsters who can't change a flat tire.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Raphion

said by Raphion:

If that's a safety "major", my fingernails could be deadly some days.

The cut 'tails' on Ty-wraps will cut like a knife... My arms are covered in small scars from all the cuts I've received climbing through cable racks over the years... It is a safety hazard.

As for using twine on power cable, that's standard practice in telco... I'll snap some pics of 500 and 750 mcm cable laced in tray when I'm at work tomorrow.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
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1 recommendation

Click for full size
Click for full size
Click for full size
This is the battery room for an OC192 POP that we built for Sprint in 2005. It took 5 JWs 60 days total to build this from empty room to test and commission. In 2007 we went back and took it all apart, packed it up and shipped the gear some place else.

Total time in operation: zero hours

But I digress...

You can see the waxed linen lashing on the conductors.
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Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to drew

That's sprint for ya.



Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
reply to drew

Ah, the return of the good old days of a fuse box instead of circuit breakers and pennies in the fuse box in place of fuses. When men were real men!



Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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·Millenicom

said by Blogger:

Ah, the return of the good old days of a fuse box instead of circuit breakers and pennies in the fuse box in place of fuses. When men were real men!

Fuses provide real protection. Circuit Breakers only provide the illusion of being protected. A fuse will always blow, CB's don't always trip. I'd much rather have the old fuse box.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Blogger:

Ah, the return of the good old days of a fuse box instead of circuit breakers and pennies in the fuse box in place of fuses. When men were real men!

Fuses provide real protection. Circuit Breakers only provide the illusion of being protected. A fuse will always blow, CB's don't always trip. I'd much rather have the old fuse box.

exactly on large fixed machinery its always fuses, as well few people realize you are supposed to "excercise" your breakers by turning them on and off from time to time so they dont weld in the on position


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by telco_mtl:

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Blogger:

Ah, the return of the good old days of a fuse box instead of circuit breakers and pennies in the fuse box in place of fuses. When men were real men!

Fuses provide real protection. Circuit Breakers only provide the illusion of being protected. A fuse will always blow, CB's don't always trip. I'd much rather have the old fuse box.

exactly on large fixed machinery its always fuses, as well few people realize you are supposed to "excercise" your breakers by turning them on and off from time to time so they dont weld in the on position

That is correct. We bought a circuit breaker test set at work and I was amazed the number of CB's that would not trip regardless of the current imposed on them. We could test magnetic trip units up to 800 amp in addition to the small 1 pole breakers.

A fuse will always blow.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

When a house fire is prevent by mechanical devices, I think of Murphy's law. Imagine if fire sprinkler heads were triggered mechanically. Same goes for fuses vs. breakers.

I wish I could fuse protect all my circuits on my transfer switch (breakers), but that would require a small fusable disconnect in between the circuit and the breaker panel. Yuck.

I blame the people who would put oversized fuses in the slot just because they didn't want it to blow for the fact that we don't have fuses anymore in panels. GFCIs and AFCIs could have easily been put downstream of a fuse.

said by LazMan:

The cut 'tails' on Ty-wraps will cut like a knife... My arms are covered in small scars from all the cuts I've received climbing through cable racks over the years... It is a safety hazard.

I cut the TY-wrap tails with nail clippers. It will be cut nice and flush, but that's just at home.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

The cut 'tails' on Ty-wraps will cut like a knife... My arms are covered in small scars from all the cuts I've received climbing through cable racks over the years... It is a safety hazard.

A cig lighter (yes, your house and the whole neighborhood will burn Chicago style if you do this) will quickly blunt the tip if it is a problem. If there is a flame, blow it out. You can do the same thing thing to stop certain plastic ropes from unraveling when knots are unfeasible.