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rgbond

join:2002-10-15
Streetsboro, OH
reply to drew

Re: Another Edition of "What's Wrong With This Picture?&quo

I don't see any cable ties.


drew
Radiant
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
said by rgbond:

I don't see any cable ties.

Funny you should say this... what I didn't take a picture of was the way the extension cords were ran along the ceiling and beams and florescent lights... all attached via cable ties. And not a single one of the ends was clipped off to make it at least look "nice." I always have a dike tool with me when using cable ties.
--
flickr | 'Cause I've been waiting, all my life just waiting
For you to shine, shine your light on me


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
said by drew:

I always have a dike tool with me when using cable ties.

If you are using cable ties in any type of quantity, do yourself a favor and invest in one of these. Might save the next guy some sliced up knuckles too!

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by pike:

said by drew:

I always have a dike tool with me when using cable ties.

If you are using cable ties in any type of quantity, do yourself a favor and invest in one of these. Might save the next guy some sliced up knuckles too!

That's a unitasker gimick tool. All you need is wire snips.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
said by Critsmcgee:

That's a unitasker gimick tool. All you need is wire snips.

Actually, those tools are a requirement on many jobs.

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by John Galt:

said by Critsmcgee:

That's a unitasker gimick tool. All you need is wire snips.

Actually, those tools are a requirement on many jobs.

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by Critsmcgee:

said by John Galt:

said by Critsmcgee:

That's a unitasker gimick tool. All you need is wire snips.

Actually, those tools are a requirement on many jobs.

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!

Agree. Maybe panel fabricators but general electrical no way
Wonder if John Galt ever laced the bundles before the wimp cable ties were invented?


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
reply to Critsmcgee
Duplicate post


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to Critsmcgee
said by Critsmcgee:

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!

If you are doing professional electrical work on high-tech industrial projects, you can find the requirement in the specifications for the project.

The other requirement you can find is for torque screwdrivers.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by John Galt:

said by Critsmcgee:

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!

If you are doing professional electrical work on high-tech industrial projects, you can find the requirement in the specifications for the project.

The other requirement you can find is for torque screwdrivers.

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
said by Jack_in_VA:

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

That was then, this is now.

I'll agree, though, it all comes down to competent supervision.
--
The most powerful weapon in the world is ignorance. Politicians exploit it to achieve almost anything they want.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by John Galt:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

That was then, this is now.

I'll agree, though, it all comes down to competent supervision.

You also need workers intelligent and engaged enough to supervise.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
said by Jack_in_VA:

You also need workers intelligent and engaged enough to supervise.

I'll agree with that also.


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder if John Galt ever laced the bundles before the wimp cable ties were invented?

I have laced communication cables (too many to count) but don't recall ever lacing power cables. I remember learning cable lacing still with organic fiber twine (a special treatment gave it a deep red color) but by the time I did actual installations it was already all waxed polyester.

As for the ty-wrap tools, even the cheap knock-off ones save some effort and produce a more uniform result. I would probably not go and fetch it from the toolbox for just one or two quick cable ties (depending on just how far away the toolbox happens to be) but I'd certainly do it for a dozen or more.
--
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
said by leibold:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder if John Galt ever laced the bundles before the wimp cable ties were invented?

I have laced communication cables (too many to count) but don't recall ever lacing power cables. I remember learning cable lacing still with organic fiber twine (a special treatment gave it a deep red color) but by the time I did actual installations it was already all waxed polyester.

As for the ty-wrap tools, even the cheap knock-off ones save some effort and produce a more uniform result. I would probably not go and fetch it from the toolbox for just one or two quick cable ties (depending on just how far away the toolbox happens to be) but I'd certainly do it for a dozen or more.

How did you hold them together? The lacing was a little heavier duty but still tied the cables together. Control panels and MCC's were full of laced bundles.


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
said by Jack_in_VA:

How did you hold them together?

I don't recall ever lacing either AC power cable or the main DC bus cables (to the battery backup rooms). As far as I can recall those cables always ran loosely placed in enclosed raceways (usually with removable lids). The only tying of the AC cables was the strain relief at the end.

In datacenter wiring I have placed AC power cables in overhead power troughs (again loosely placed without tying). The only time they got tied down (with ty-wraps, not lacing) was when the power cables ran across an overhead cable ladder. Even then the power cables were not bundled up but tied individually to ladder rungs (side by side).

I'm not saying that lacing of power cables never happened, just that I'm not familiar with it (having never done it myself). I would think that it is more desirable to allow power cables to dissipate heat then to neatly bundle them together (which would allow heat to build up inside the bundle).
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
What did you use before tyraps? I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc. Surely you didn't have a spaghetti bowl of wires going all directions.
Maybe I should ask how old are you. Perhaps tyraps existed when you came along.


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc.

The topic of this thread was power cables. I'm sure industrial control systems at that time did lace the wiring but that is not something I ever did.

As for my age, old enough to have done cable splices with hammer and blow torch
PILC (paper insulated lead-shielded cable) telco dry-core cable. The hammer was used to shape a shell from a sheet of lead (fitting it to the size of the splice) and the blow torch was used to solder it around the cable ends.
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nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
·surpasshosting
reply to Jack_in_VA
I learned the fine art of cable lacing from Ma Bell. They had a real hard-on for that kind of shit at the phone company. When they decided cosmic frames would be the panacea to the old MDF, ty-wraps has come out. Those could only be used on poly jacketed cables, so the individual pairs were still laced all through the backside.

I agree about the ty-wrap tool - it's a gimmick. Panduit was literally giving them away years ago and I still have one somewhere.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

Hi Jack,

I'm inclined to agree with you but you're oversimplifying a bit. It does seem to be an unfortunate truth that the current generation and younger folks I encounter in the field performing skilled trades are far less skilled then their predecessors. I often attribute this to a lack of interest in the task they are performing. They never bothered to truly UNDERSTAND what it is they are doing -- rather then tend to memorize certain things and simply repeat them. But that's a whole different topic.

What you seem to be missing regarding spec'd tools like torque screwdrivers is the application they're being used for. Bear in mind technological advances have resulted in increasingly complex devices and equipment that demand a new level of precision. Think about the modern aircraft flying over your family's home. Would you want the skilled and tenured aviation electrician to rely on his arthritic "calibrated" hands or a certified torque wrench when performing maintenance on that airframe?


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to leibold
said by leibold:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I'm not talking abut power wiring but control wiring, control circuit wiring etc.

The topic of this thread was power cables. I'm sure industrial control systems at that time did lace the wiring but that is not something I ever did.

As for my age, old enough to have done cable splices with hammer and blow torch
PILC (paper insulated lead-shielded cable) telco dry-core cable. The hammer was used to shape a shell from a sheet of lead (fitting it to the size of the splice) and the blow torch was used to solder it around the cable ends.

Extension cords are now classified as power cables? Ok I have no clue as to what you would classify the other wires as. I've seen wires in service panels laced very neatly. I would classify them as "power cables".


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I learned the fine art of cable lacing from Ma Bell. They had a real hard-on for that kind of shit at the phone company. When they decided cosmic frames would be the panacea to the old MDF, ty-wraps has come out. Those could only be used on poly jacketed cables, so the individual pairs were still laced all through the backside.

I agree about the ty-wrap tool - it's a gimmick. Panduit was literally giving them away years ago and I still have one somewhere.

Telco cabinets and electrical control panels that were laced were beautiful to see.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to pike
said by pike:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

Hi Jack,

I'm inclined to agree with you but you're oversimplifying a bit. It does seem to be an unfortunate truth that the current generation and younger folks I encounter in the field performing skilled trades are far less skilled then their predecessors. I often attribute this to a lack of interest in the task they are performing. They never bothered to truly UNDERSTAND what it is they are doing -- rather then tend to memorize certain things and simply repeat them. But that's a whole different topic.

What you seem to be missing regarding spec'd tools like torque screwdrivers is the application they're being used for. Bear in mind technological advances have resulted in increasingly complex devices and equipment that demand a new level of precision. Think about the modern aircraft flying over your family's home. Would you want the skilled and tenured aviation electrician to rely on his arthritic "calibrated" hands or a certified torque wrench when performing maintenance on that airframe?

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, we built rockets, we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
said by Jack_in_VA:

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, German ex-pat scientists helped us build rockets plus Atomic and Hydrogen bombs and we dropped the bombs on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.

Corrected for posterity.
--
The talented hawk speaks French.

kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
reply to Jack_in_VA

I worked on a 1.6Gwatt power plant. All the panels and trays(proper term??) were a sight to see. Miles and miles of wire. I wish I had the concession on zip ties, thousands and thousands of them.

nonymous
Premium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by John Galt:

said by Critsmcgee:

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree. It might help save a little time if your doing an insane amount of them but requirement? No way!

If you are doing professional electrical work on high-tech industrial projects, you can find the requirement in the specifications for the project.

The other requirement you can find is for torque screwdrivers.

Old time Electricians that came up under a master Electrician had calibrated wrists. God how do you think we ever built or wired anything? Given what I see and read today we did better without the tools because we had trained people vs tools with incompetent workers trying to use them.

I went from electric utility helper to telco. The torque required on telco wires is nothing. Maybe the cases etc, but on the wiring nothing. Coming from heavy gauge aluminum to telco for the first week in training I broke every connection. Fortuneatly the first week was class room only.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

We built automobiles

That took generations of development before being more convenient than horses or trains.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built airplanes

That were built with flat glass cockpit windows that tended to cave in under wind pressure.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built rockets,

Most of them failed at the beginning, evetually they did use proper tools, tools that cost someone's house, but hey, cold war and space race had no budget!

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan.

I doubt today's electrician should be measured up to the top american scientists during the peak of WW2.

Yes technical knowledge matters a lot.
Problem is... the tools made it that we don't screw up to learn the technical knowledge from experience


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by alkizmo:

said by Jack_in_VA:

We built automobiles

That took generations of development before being more convenient than horses or trains.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built airplanes

That were built with flat glass cockpit windows that tended to cave in under wind pressure.

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built rockets,

Most of them failed at the beginning, evetually they did use proper tools, tools that cost someone's house, but hey, cold war and space race had no budget!

said by Jack_in_VA:

we built an Atomic and Hydrogen bomb and dropped them on Japan.

I doubt today's electrician should be measured up to the top american scientists during the peak of WW2.

Yes technical knowledge matters a lot.
Problem is... the tools made it that we don't screw up to learn the technical knowledge from experience

We Americans built many things some bad but the net good advanced us to the worlds greatest superpower. Not bad I'd say. Problem today? The younger generation has no clue if a keyboard is not involved. I know youngsters who can't change a flat tire.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, German ex-pat scientists helped us build rockets plus Atomic and Hydrogen bombs and we dropped the bombs on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.

Corrected for posterity.

misses the point
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
Premium
join:2009-01-17
00000
kudos:3

1 recommendation

said by AVD:

said by Cho Baka:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Pike I hear what you're saying but "what did they use before those tools were invented?" We built automobiles, we built airplanes, German ex-pat scientists helped us build rockets plus Atomic and Hydrogen bombs and we dropped the bombs on Japan. We built the world's largest manufacturing economy in the world. All the tools, meters, smartphones in the world are useless if you don't have the technical knowledge and hands on training by a master.

Corrected for posterity.

misses the point

Missed the reason for correction as well...

"Definition of POSTERITY

1
: the offspring of one progenitor to the furthest generation
2
: all future generations"