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BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3

[WIN8] With Sinofsky Gone, Start Menu Could Return to Windows 8



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

Re: [WIN8] With Sinofsky Gone, Start Menu Could Return to Window

Possibly too little too late... all I hear from people who picked up new systems with Windows 8 are grumblings about how terrible it is. I don't know if it's the overall experience or simply the start menu but I hear very few people that are neutral or even worse, like it.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to BillRoland
Did they offer an option for Office programs to return back from ribbon to conventional menu for those, who'd better use it?
I think it's the same strategy here - it's our way or no way...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


djdanska
Rudie32
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
San Diego, CA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to urbanriot
Click for full size
I have windows 8 on my lenovo. at first i was really annoyed but with this app (not sure where i got it) it's not half bad. It's alright. Not going back to windows 7 right now since the machine speed is the same.
--
The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult. The day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
Alden Nowlan


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
I use classicshell on my touch based Windows 8 system and it's almost like the real thing (and it's free) - »classicshell.sourceforge.net/

After reading the topic's article I find it ironic that I'm using a third party application on a touch based system to undo exactly what this guy sold on Jobs.

said by OZO:

Did they offer an option for Office programs to return back from ribbon to conventional menu for those, who'd better use it?

On this topic I was steadfastly against the change or moreso I was against a forced change without an option to re-enable the menu until I'd read a programmer's blog that said all the options are there, they're just more visible there, and challenged people to prove him wrong.

After reading that and 'suffering' for 3 months, I came to agree with Microsoft...

But this is entirely different, you're clicking a button to go to an entirely different screen where you have to move your mouse around to see everything. It's grossly inefficient. At least the ribbon is in the same area as the menu they removed.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
The new desktop becomes the ribbon, don't you think?
And BTW, it's the same "forced change without an option to re-enable the menu"...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

Possibly too little too late... all I hear from people who picked up new systems with Windows 8 are grumblings about how terrible it is. I don't know if it's the overall experience or simply the start menu but I hear very few people that are neutral or even worse, like it.

Well I'll be your exception then, as I like my Surface and the more I use it, the more I like it.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

all the options are there, they're just more visible there, and challenged people to prove him wrong.

When we deal with information, the main problem is not to have it all in one place. The problem is to filter it and have only info, that you need, when you need it. Otherwise you'll be overwhelmed with amount of information presented to you...

The same principle applies to ribbon vs menu consideration. It's not useful at all to have all options taking all screen space at all times. It's useful to get only those items, that you need and, again, only when you need it.

Here is example form my computer maintenance practice. I remove all unnecessary items from context menu in WE, that many programs try to foist in my computers when they get installed. Now my context menu is very useful to what I need. And "New" menu item contains only file types, that I actually need to create. I even have BAT file, that removes all unnecessary trash, that every Office update pushes on my computers... It's the very same principle - I don't want to get buried with useless information and I try to remove unnecessary and organize the rest.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

said by urbanriot:

Possibly too little too late... all I hear from people who picked up new systems with Windows 8 are grumblings about how terrible it is. I don't know if it's the overall experience or simply the start menu but I hear very few people that are neutral or even worse, like it.

Well I'll be your exception then, as I like my Surface and the more I use it, the more I like it.

I should have clarified that I was referring to full blown Windows 8 on a touch based system rather than a limited tablet IOS, my apologies.

You're still not an exception


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
I like Win 8 better than 7 in fact. I still have the preview on my laptop. The lappy is too old to bother with upgrading, but I will be upgrading my main desktop to 8.
--
Think Outside the Fox.


signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
reply to BillRoland
My BIL, and me, have one objection, be it percieved or real. The exploration/access/navigation every since Win98, has become more and more annoyingly laberinthine. We remember how it only took one or two clicks to do what it now takes more clicks to do. We don't want to have to go through more hoops just to accomodate people who refuse to overcome technical challenges.

Now, on the other hand, some changes to Linux's KDE are nice because less clicks are needed, or the same as before but are faster and obvious.

Windows OS could learn something from the various X Windows interfaces: There should be more choice of interfaces, interfaces should be more accomdating to a greater variety of skill levels. We should have multiple options just as Linux has various options such as KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and so on. There should be different desktop environments for different people. Pros should have something that suits them. Ma and Pa Kettle should have something for the helpless. The 12 year old wise ass kid should have something. The blind and disabled should have something. There should be several DEs and just as you purchase the OS, but at a lower price, the DE should be sold separately and at a low price.

But sadly, the "brains" at MS refuse to learn from the competition except in the worst ways...
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
said by signmeuptoo:

The exploration/access/navigation every since Win98, has become more and more annoyingly laberinthine

What is so hard about WinKey, enter search term (e.g. start of program name), and enter return?

What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?
--
♬ Music is life ♬


signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
It's all just so simple, right? No.


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to sivran
said by sivran:

I like Win 8 better than 7 in fact. I still have the preview on my laptop. The lappy is too old to bother with upgrading, but I will be upgrading my main desktop to 8.

You are certainly one of the few. Would you like better about it compared to windows 7?


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

It's all just so simple, right? No.

How does that answer the question? You fail to explain what is complicated about either...
--
♬ Music is life ♬


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to Msradell
Well, for one, I like that it takes far less clicks to get various places like control panel, admin tools, and add/remove programs (*cough* excuse me, "Programs and Features" ) thanks to the ribbonized Explorer and the start flag's context menu. I also like the sidebars, though I wish they had taken the left one just one step further and turned it into a complete virtual desktop feature.

I like that nothing made me want to pull my hair out while using it.

And oddly enough, I like Metro better than the Win 7/Vista start menu. Though I'd rather have the Classic Start Menu back. As in the 9x/2k/XP one.
--
Think Outside the Fox.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to darcilicious
said by darcilicious:

What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

It's disturbing that you have 30+ icons on your desktop and taskbar. I'm guessing signmeuptoo's not as disorganized as you are which is probably why your way is hard for organized people.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to BillRoland
I can live with the lack of a Start menu (but I will probably add Classic Start). What I cannot live with in Win 8 is the horrific fact that Microsoft has seen fit to deny me the right to make necessary adjustments to Windows display. To remove Advanced Display/Items list and require me to make very complicated registry changes just to make simple adjustments borders on the criminal in my opinion. I now hope Microsoft goes bankrupt. To give the middle finger to ADA (and those horrible accessibility themes are NOT an adequate answer) is to show extremely bad judgement. I don't need a garish, extremely difficult to read "accessibility" theme. I need the Items list restored in Advanced display. I have a thread here asking for help in how to change the registry item that controls a hideous, very difficult on the eyes, blue color that Microsoft has made unadjustable in Win 8 because of removing Items list. I have had no replies that help me fix this. Microsoft has placed PIECES of the Items list strewn about in various areas of Windows 8 but has completely left out many things on the Items list forcing one to make the changes in the Registry and I have no idea how to do it as I don't know what Dword or string controls the color I need or controls Caption buttons, etc.

I like Win 8 in several ways...if I could fix the horrible display problems (even choosing a READABLE font for Windows is now IMPOSSIBLE unless you make complicated Registry changes! That is insane...you get a windows 8 computer and cannot read anything without difficulty and burning, stinging cloudy vision and you cannot change the font to one that is readable ...Verdana... unless you make changes in the Registry. Whoever removed Items list from Advanced Display should be shot and then slowly tortured to death and I want to do the torturing).

I am not sure how to exercise my downgrade rights. I bought Win 8 Pro so I could downgrade if necessary...at least until Microsoft comes to its senses and gives us back Advanced Display/Items list. I have no Win 8 Pro Reinstallation disk from Dell but I have requested one but I will also need a Win 7 Pro installation disk and I don't know exactly how to get that. Plus, downgrading will mean a terrible search. Search in Win 8 is great but horrible in Vista/Win 7.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

SilentMan

join:2002-07-15
New York, NY
reply to darcilicious
said by darcilicious:

said by signmeuptoo:

The exploration/access/navigation every since Win98, has become more and more annoyingly laberinthine

:
:
What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

That tells you right there that the Metro thing is useless and unnecessary when you have to add things to the task bar and to the desktop in order to avoid dealing with the Metro nonsense.


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

said by darcilicious:

What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

It's disturbing that you have 30+ icons on your desktop and taskbar. I'm guessing signmeuptoo's not as disorganized as you are which is probably why your way is hard for organized people.

Say what? I think you must have me confused with someone else...
--
♬ Music is life ♬


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
reply to SilentMan
said by SilentMan:

said by darcilicious:

said by signmeuptoo:

The exploration/access/navigation every since Win98, has become more and more annoyingly laberinthine

:
:
What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

That tells you right there that the Metro thing is useless and unnecessary when you have to add things to the task bar and to the desktop in order to avoid dealing with the Metro nonsense.

It's the same thing that I do in Windows 7, one of the post Win98 OS's that the OP is complaining about...
--
♬ Music is life ♬


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
reply to darcilicious
... which is odd, since you even quoted me quoting you!


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
said by urbanriot:

... which is odd, since you even quoted me quoting you!

I'm just surprised you know what I have on my desktop and that you got it so wrong

You quoted me and then attributed something to me that has no basis in reality So I find your post even odder...
--
♬ Music is life ♬

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

said by darcilicious:

What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

It's disturbing that you have 30+ icons on your desktop and taskbar. I'm guessing signmeuptoo's not as disorganized as you are which is probably why your way is hard for organized people.

I'll have 100 or more on the desktop and all are gigantic in size and that cannot be changed just like you cannot change the size of the systray icons which is gigantic. That is Caption button and Microsoft removed the ability to make Advanced Display/Items list changes except for a few items and Captions buttons is not one of them. You can't even choose how you want your icons spaced...insane of Microsoft!

All the desktop icons I'll have cannot be hidden as I have hidden/unhidden with Desk Sweeper (tiny free program that runs at Start in the systray) since Windows 95. It works on ALL versions of Windows except Win 8 (installs ok but won't hide the desktop icons).

As for typing the name of the program you want to find it...well, it is obvious that a 15 year old came up with that insane idea. As people age, even if they have no signs of dementia, they have so called "senior moments" when their mind goes blank and they can't recall the name of the program! What are they supposed to do? Not use computers anymore? Wait until they finally recall the name? Start/programs lists is a godsend for older folks...why torture older folks by taking this away? Make it OPTIONAL and young folks can avoid it because they are addicted to only shiny and new which is fine but why are only young people expected to use Windows 8? Microsoft needs to listen to its Windows Panelists and it doesn't.

(Excuse the typing...this keyboard has terrible lag...or maybe it is Win 8 with the lag...I'm going to hookup my far superior, but ancient keyboard and see if it is this crap new Multimedia low keys keyboard with the lag or Windows 8).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Maven
Premium
join:2002-03-12
Canada
reply to BillRoland
Win8's start screen is basically a full screen start menu. You can see more shortcuts without having to go through a hierarchy of folders. I'm not sure how that could be perceived as worse than the start menu.

I wish people would kick back and evaluate what Microsoft is bringing to the table. Instead, we get a bunch of knee jerk reactions and parroting of the tech blogs.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to darcilicious
said by darcilicious:

I'm just surprised you know what I have on my desktop and that you got it so wrong

Excellent, we're on the same page now. Take your most recent response and apply it to your first post in the thread.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to Maven
said by Maven:

Win8's start screen is basically a full screen start menu. You can see more shortcuts without having to go through a hierarchy of folders. I'm not sure how that could be perceived as worse than the start menu.

"Full screen". That's how. It's jarring, like full-screen DOS in shitty old DOS-based Windows.

Instead, we get a bunch of knee jerk reactions and parroting of the tech blogs.

You seem to have made up your mind that it's impossible for anyone to have tried it for a while and still disliked it.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

Windows OS could learn something from the various X Windows interfaces: There should be more choice of interfaces, interfaces should be more accomdating to a greater variety of skill levels. We should have multiple options just as Linux has various options such as KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and so on. There should be different desktop environments for different people. Pros should have something that suits them. Ma and Pa Kettle should have something for the helpless. The 12 year old wise ass kid should have something. The blind and disabled should have something. There should be several DEs and just as you purchase the OS, but at a lower price, the DE should be sold separately and at a low price.

And that's exactly what I've been telling here on this forum for years. OS is not the Windows Explorer or how does it look. OS doesn't look at all, if you will... It's comprised of several basic components, which allow to run applications, that users need, on hardware known as PC. It's first of all hardware virtualization support layer, task schedulers, process and memory management, file system(s), interface components (network, USB, ...), etc.

OS should be separated from a program, representing desktop window (like Windows Explorer). This separation requirement is not revolutionary in any way. It's the way how it's done, in many other OS's, including e.g. Linux. Just buy Windows OS (let's call it kernel) with desktop package, that you need. Users should always have options of selecting desktop environment, that could better fit to their particular needs. Why it is so difficult to understand (completely rhetorical question here)...

If they offered OS, separated from desktop program, I could be in first lines of customers, who are willing to by it. I just don't like and/or need the bundle, forced on me in the latest Windows 8.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

We should have multiple options just as Linux has various options such as KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and so on.

Then Windows could at last achieve the market penetration of Linux desktops!

Basically, decently-integrated GUI apps need to be written for a particular desktop. Multiple GUIs = market fragmentation. Apps is what sells the OS, so multiple desktops will be bad for app developers and thus bad for Microsoft. [Warning: I don't do GUIs, so this is a layman's observation only].

Notice how many 3rd-party desktop environments exist for Windows? And yet it seems like it's just one line in the Windows registry to bring up an entirely different shell, should someone care to sell one.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to urbanriot
If you add the desktop toolbar to the taskbar, all your desktop icons and folders are listed in a vertical menu, with flyouts for sub-menus along with:

*Libraries
*My Docs (under %Username% Files)
*Computer
*Network
*Control Panel
*Homegroup

Right-clicking/tapping on the mini start-menu in the bottom left of the desktop adds:

*Programs and Features
*Power Options
*Event Viewer
*System
*Device Manager
*Disk Management
*Computer Management
*Command Prompt
*Command Prompt (Admin)
*Task Manager
*File Explorer
*Search

This is far more functionality that the pre Win8 Start Menu.

Most users use the Start Menu only to shutdown. Every other function is done either by desktop shortcuts, browser links or responding to system prompts.

Sinofsky is right about removing the Start Menu in that Windows 8 is a necessary interim step to eliminating the desktop altogether in favor of the modern UI. A task master like Sinofsky often doesn't fit in after the job (Windows 7/8 rollout) is done - managing a steady-state operation requires a different skillset that taskmasters usually can't adapt to. That's why he was let go...his time was up.

Convergence between mobile and fixed devices, an irreversible trend, means that a UI has to be a consistent experience cross-platform. It isn't now, by market share the vast majority of users have different UI and experience on their mobile device than they do on their fixed device; and they certainly have not had a problem adapting to it. They'll get used to the Windows 8 interface as well.

Microsoft is the only company that can leverage its installed Windows base, XBox console, WindowsPhone and Surface tablets with a common user experience. No other company has that breadth of consumer penetration. That's why Windows 8 and the modern UI is the right way to go.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.