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darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
reply to SilentMan

Re: [WIN8] With Sinofsky Gone, Start Menu Could Return to Window

said by SilentMan:

said by darcilicious:

said by signmeuptoo:

The exploration/access/navigation every since Win98, has become more and more annoyingly laberinthine

:
:
What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

That tells you right there that the Metro thing is useless and unnecessary when you have to add things to the task bar and to the desktop in order to avoid dealing with the Metro nonsense.

It's the same thing that I do in Windows 7, one of the post Win98 OS's that the OP is complaining about...
--
♬ Music is life ♬


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
reply to darcilicious
... which is odd, since you even quoted me quoting you!


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
said by urbanriot:

... which is odd, since you even quoted me quoting you!

I'm just surprised you know what I have on my desktop and that you got it so wrong

You quoted me and then attributed something to me that has no basis in reality So I find your post even odder...
--
♬ Music is life ♬

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

said by darcilicious:

What is so hard about adding a shortcut to the desktop and/or the taskbar?

It's disturbing that you have 30+ icons on your desktop and taskbar. I'm guessing signmeuptoo's not as disorganized as you are which is probably why your way is hard for organized people.

I'll have 100 or more on the desktop and all are gigantic in size and that cannot be changed just like you cannot change the size of the systray icons which is gigantic. That is Caption button and Microsoft removed the ability to make Advanced Display/Items list changes except for a few items and Captions buttons is not one of them. You can't even choose how you want your icons spaced...insane of Microsoft!

All the desktop icons I'll have cannot be hidden as I have hidden/unhidden with Desk Sweeper (tiny free program that runs at Start in the systray) since Windows 95. It works on ALL versions of Windows except Win 8 (installs ok but won't hide the desktop icons).

As for typing the name of the program you want to find it...well, it is obvious that a 15 year old came up with that insane idea. As people age, even if they have no signs of dementia, they have so called "senior moments" when their mind goes blank and they can't recall the name of the program! What are they supposed to do? Not use computers anymore? Wait until they finally recall the name? Start/programs lists is a godsend for older folks...why torture older folks by taking this away? Make it OPTIONAL and young folks can avoid it because they are addicted to only shiny and new which is fine but why are only young people expected to use Windows 8? Microsoft needs to listen to its Windows Panelists and it doesn't.

(Excuse the typing...this keyboard has terrible lag...or maybe it is Win 8 with the lag...I'm going to hookup my far superior, but ancient keyboard and see if it is this crap new Multimedia low keys keyboard with the lag or Windows 8).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Maven
Premium
join:2002-03-12
Canada
reply to BillRoland
Win8's start screen is basically a full screen start menu. You can see more shortcuts without having to go through a hierarchy of folders. I'm not sure how that could be perceived as worse than the start menu.

I wish people would kick back and evaluate what Microsoft is bringing to the table. Instead, we get a bunch of knee jerk reactions and parroting of the tech blogs.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to darcilicious
said by darcilicious:

I'm just surprised you know what I have on my desktop and that you got it so wrong

Excellent, we're on the same page now. Take your most recent response and apply it to your first post in the thread.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to Maven
said by Maven:

Win8's start screen is basically a full screen start menu. You can see more shortcuts without having to go through a hierarchy of folders. I'm not sure how that could be perceived as worse than the start menu.

"Full screen". That's how. It's jarring, like full-screen DOS in shitty old DOS-based Windows.

Instead, we get a bunch of knee jerk reactions and parroting of the tech blogs.

You seem to have made up your mind that it's impossible for anyone to have tried it for a while and still disliked it.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

Windows OS could learn something from the various X Windows interfaces: There should be more choice of interfaces, interfaces should be more accomdating to a greater variety of skill levels. We should have multiple options just as Linux has various options such as KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and so on. There should be different desktop environments for different people. Pros should have something that suits them. Ma and Pa Kettle should have something for the helpless. The 12 year old wise ass kid should have something. The blind and disabled should have something. There should be several DEs and just as you purchase the OS, but at a lower price, the DE should be sold separately and at a low price.

And that's exactly what I've been telling here on this forum for years. OS is not the Windows Explorer or how does it look. OS doesn't look at all, if you will... It's comprised of several basic components, which allow to run applications, that users need, on hardware known as PC. It's first of all hardware virtualization support layer, task schedulers, process and memory management, file system(s), interface components (network, USB, ...), etc.

OS should be separated from a program, representing desktop window (like Windows Explorer). This separation requirement is not revolutionary in any way. It's the way how it's done, in many other OS's, including e.g. Linux. Just buy Windows OS (let's call it kernel) with desktop package, that you need. Users should always have options of selecting desktop environment, that could better fit to their particular needs. Why it is so difficult to understand (completely rhetorical question here)...

If they offered OS, separated from desktop program, I could be in first lines of customers, who are willing to by it. I just don't like and/or need the bundle, forced on me in the latest Windows 8.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

We should have multiple options just as Linux has various options such as KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and so on.

Then Windows could at last achieve the market penetration of Linux desktops!

Basically, decently-integrated GUI apps need to be written for a particular desktop. Multiple GUIs = market fragmentation. Apps is what sells the OS, so multiple desktops will be bad for app developers and thus bad for Microsoft. [Warning: I don't do GUIs, so this is a layman's observation only].

Notice how many 3rd-party desktop environments exist for Windows? And yet it seems like it's just one line in the Windows registry to bring up an entirely different shell, should someone care to sell one.


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to urbanriot
If you add the desktop toolbar to the taskbar, all your desktop icons and folders are listed in a vertical menu, with flyouts for sub-menus along with:

*Libraries
*My Docs (under %Username% Files)
*Computer
*Network
*Control Panel
*Homegroup

Right-clicking/tapping on the mini start-menu in the bottom left of the desktop adds:

*Programs and Features
*Power Options
*Event Viewer
*System
*Device Manager
*Disk Management
*Computer Management
*Command Prompt
*Command Prompt (Admin)
*Task Manager
*File Explorer
*Search

This is far more functionality that the pre Win8 Start Menu.

Most users use the Start Menu only to shutdown. Every other function is done either by desktop shortcuts, browser links or responding to system prompts.

Sinofsky is right about removing the Start Menu in that Windows 8 is a necessary interim step to eliminating the desktop altogether in favor of the modern UI. A task master like Sinofsky often doesn't fit in after the job (Windows 7/8 rollout) is done - managing a steady-state operation requires a different skillset that taskmasters usually can't adapt to. That's why he was let go...his time was up.

Convergence between mobile and fixed devices, an irreversible trend, means that a UI has to be a consistent experience cross-platform. It isn't now, by market share the vast majority of users have different UI and experience on their mobile device than they do on their fixed device; and they certainly have not had a problem adapting to it. They'll get used to the Windows 8 interface as well.

Microsoft is the only company that can leverage its installed Windows base, XBox console, WindowsPhone and Surface tablets with a common user experience. No other company has that breadth of consumer penetration. That's why Windows 8 and the modern UI is the right way to go.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to dave
said by dave:

said by Maven:

Win8's start screen is basically a full screen start menu. You can see more shortcuts without having to go through a hierarchy of folders. I'm not sure how that could be perceived as worse than the start menu.

"Full screen". That's how. It's jarring, like full-screen DOS in shitty old DOS-based Windows.

Instead, we get a bunch of knee jerk reactions and parroting of the tech blogs.

You seem to have made up your mind that it's impossible for anyone to have tried it for a while and still disliked it.

A bunch of extremely garish, very hard on the eyes, colored tiles is not a Start screen! Most of us plan to NEVER go to Metro side of Win 8 if we can possibly avoid it. It might not be too horrible if I could ditch the hideous colors and set up the colors I like instead of the ones Microsoft is determined to push down my throat...never matter that not only are they very ugly but extremely hard on my eyes...those garish colors are for teen age eyes only.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

2 edits
reply to digitalfutur
What then about those of us who have NO mobile devices and plan to never have any? I have no need of Windows on a mobile device. I have a desktop computer that I use at home. That is the only place I wish to use the internet or anything else like Office or other applications. So, you feel I should not be able to do that? That's crazy. Some people work from their home (a blessed thing if you are that lucky), some people are elderly and choose to not run around town constantly, and others cannot do that because of physical limitations as they age...should they not be able to use a computer because desktops disappear and only what works on a tiny cell phone that they have zero use for is forced on the desktop user? That's simply crazy.

Trying your tricks, adding Desktop toolbar gives me, IN THE WRONG LOCATION, a NON bolded popup menu. I can't read it except with difficulty...faint text and I haven't gone in the registry yet to force Windows to use readable Verdana font instead of the very difficult to read MS Segue font. All my other menus are bolded ...why doesn't the Desktop toolbar one bold?

Your other trick is almost impossible to do because it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to get that bunch of tight little tiles that you can barely see to appear in the bottom left corner and if you can FINALLY get them to appear they disappear almost INSTANTLY and then they will not appear again for many minutes or hours. So, you do not have time to right click there before the tiny tiles disappear. That is of no use unless you can tell me how to have that group of tiny tiles appear permanently in the lower left corner. Why do they disappear anyway? I hate stuff that comes and goes. It should be there permanently or not there at all.

As for using the Start menu to shut down...who shuts down a computer? I never shut down a computer unless going on vacation (where I take no computer because the point of a vacation is to get away from the house and from computers). So, I don't use the Start menu to shut down on any version of Windows. The start menu is for all navigation not for shutting down! Any other navigation of Windows should be done in Explorer tree as that is what Explorer is for (after unhiding all hidden files of course). I have no idea how to shut this new computer down as I have no need to learn where to do that as I am not planning a vacation anytime soon.

--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
Making the start flag appear is not hard.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 recommendation

reply to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

Convergence between mobile and fixed devices, an irreversible trend, means that a UI has to be a consistent experience cross-platform.

That's a good point but I feel it's an irrelevant point as it presumes that every single person that uses a Windows PC will also be using a Windows Phone and a Windows Tablet when that's not at all the case now and quite frankly, people function just fine with an Android Phone, Apple iPad and Windows PC.

What we're experiencing here is a disruption to majority user satisfaction in an attempt to homogenize an experience that doesn't need it, to force people to use the environment they feel is best on all devices at the expense of what's better on each device.

I want to run the most usable PC operating system... on my PC. I don't want to run the 'jack of all trades' operating system on my PC.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to BillRoland
The two major questions I have in the tech industry today are:

Will Intel be able to contend with the ARM initiative successfully in the future?

And

Will Microsoft be flexible enough to gain market dominance in the mobile mark as they transition away from the declining (traditional) computer market?

Dominating their respective markets is obviously a boon for as long as said markets exist but if the markets shrink significantly, change significantly or die out completely then they have dominion over nothing or nothing much.

Therefore making way for significant change is necessary or at the very lest they must split the difference and appease both sides of their respective markets.

Technology companies need to constantly answer the question of "where do we go from here" and "how do we move forward". For Microsoft seeing the changing landscape of their market, the new Windows UI AKA Metro interface was their answer.

Some users don't even understand the question that Microsoft was trying to answer though and I get their apprehension. If the computer market descends into a majority of mobile and ultra Mobile (non-traditional) computing then it will become apparent sooner or later to all.

This is basically the first iteration of the new Windows UI and while I don't really expect Microsoft to backtrack I can see it improving in future versions. Making Metro sizable rather then "full screen only" would be an intriguing option. This would or could essentially be a start menu (not start screen) with sizable live tiles. Making metro apps sizable rather then full screen only would be interesting too at least for the x86 / x64 version.

I can deal with Windows 8 just fine as it is now though.

I remember when I first started using Windows 3.0. I would constantly drop back to DOS to do many things simply because it was what I was used to. The problem wasn't with Windows 3.0 it was with me and I had no problem acknowledging that fact. I eventually got used to the changes in Windows 3.0 though and it typically took less effort to acclimate to subsequent versions of Windows over time.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 recommendation

said by Octavean:

I remember when I first started using Windows 3.0. I would constantly drop back to DOS to do many things simply because it was what I was used to.

While others dropped back to DOS because it was what you had to do, to complete certain tasks. Fortunately Microsoft improved their Windows operating system by providing considerably more functionality in Windows 95 and the necessity to drop back to DOS was fewer and further in between.

You bring up a great point, that perhaps this giant step back will lead to a step forward and Microsoft will get it right with the next operating system. They'll learn to step forward rather than step left or right.

Regardless of what people say, Microsoft botched Windows 8. The fact that some people disagree with this and others agree with this is the exact reason they botched it. All throughout the internet we have these debates between "it sucks" and "it's great, you suck" rather than a widespread praise and adoption. If the operating system was a great success it would be met with the same confetti dropping party celebrated by the majority, like what we had with Windows 95 or the neutral acceptance of Windows 7. Windows 8 adopters have mixed feelings and it's not because some people are wrong, it's because Microsoft was wrong.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Dish Network
reply to Msradell
said by Msradell:

said by sivran:

I like Win 8 better than 7 in fact. I still have the preview on my laptop. The lappy is too old to bother with upgrading, but I will be upgrading my main desktop to 8.

You are certainly one of the few. Would you like better about it compared to windows 7?

Count me as one of the few as well. Four machines upgraded at home, three more to go.
--
Awesome. More handouts, food stamps, welfare and entitlements to come. I'm so proud.


AnonFTW

@reliablehosting.com
reply to BillRoland
I bought a cheap, low-end laptop for a friend's 4 year old daughter that arrived with Windows 8. She has had zero trouble figuring out how to download games from the Store and switch back and forth between applications.

On the other hand, as someone who has been using computers since DOS 5.0, I find that "jarring" is a good word to describe the experience sometimes when I'm in the desktop and things suddenly switch to a full-screen metro app.

I am not sold on Metro, but I can definitely see the potential once app developers are up to speed.


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I'll have 100 or more on the desktop and all are gigantic in size and that cannot be changed just like you cannot change the size of the systray icons which is gigantic.

Wow, 100 or icons on your desktop. It's funny how people can be so different in some areas.

I keep my Win 7 PC desktop clear of all icons. All I have is the wallpaper and the task bar of course that have some icons on it.

I'm a big believer that people should have the options to have the preferences they want. If they want or like 100 icons and can do it I say more power to them.

On the other hand if I was faced with 100 icons I think I would just freeze, at least initially. Even after an acclimation to them I would still fine them very annoying.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Stardock has an application like Fences which does a pretty good job of corralling your icons. You can create groups of them and label the groups accordingly.


Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
said by urbanriot:

Stardock has an application like Fences which does a pretty good job of corralling your icons. You can create groups of them and label the groups accordingly.

Thanks for that tip! If for some reason I need or want icons on the desktop I'll be sure to check it out.

For now I don't like the icons on the desktop and secondarily never felt a need for them either.


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2
There are definitely features in Windows 8 that I indeed like, just as there are things that I don't like; namely the Start Screen. But as many of the others in this thread have stated, I got the Start Menu back with Stardock's Start8.

Honestly, I walked into Windows 8 really wanting to hate it but with my usage of it I can't say that I hate it anymore.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)


Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT
kudos:1
said by trparky:

There are definitely features in Windows 8 that I indeed like, just as there are things that I don't like; namely the Start Screen. But as many of the others in this thread have stated, I got the Start Menu back with Stardock's Start8.

Honestly, I walked into Windows 8 really wanting to hate it but with my usage of it I can't say that I hate it anymore.

You hated it less after you got the start menu back right?
--
It's NOT Ni-kon It's NE-KON!




LG is NOT Lifes Good It's Lucky Goldstar!



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2
said by Subaru:

said by trparky:

There are definitely features in Windows 8 that I indeed like, just as there are things that I don't like; namely the Start Screen. But as many of the others in this thread have stated, I got the Start Menu back with Stardock's Start8.

Honestly, I walked into Windows 8 really wanting to hate it but with my usage of it I can't say that I hate it anymore.

You hated it less after you got the start menu back right?

Yes.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog | AOKP (The Android Open Kang Project)


Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT
kudos:1
ok just making sure, I was playing with some win8 laptops in staple last week I have the same feeling, it's fine but clicking where the start button would be just brings up metro again.
Expand your moderator at work


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to Subaru

Re: [WIN8] With Sinofsky Gone, Start Menu Could Return to Window

I love the Windows 8's Start screen a lot more than the start menu, even after using Windows since 3.1 days. I got Windows 95 since the day it was out.

Lack of start menu does not affect me because I know where to go in a single clicks. Right click the start corner (in lower left corner of either Desktop or Metro apps) and you have access to Control Panel, CMD (with admin), Disk Management, Uninstall Programs etc etc. If you right click the start button in Windows 7, all you get is, well, basically nothing.

I do more productive work with Windows 8 than previous Windows - that is an undeniable fact.

I just wish people would stop being like this and learn why MS did this. Then you will eventually "get it" like I did. I didn't like the start screen at first. You really think MS really want to lose this? You're kidding.


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

Stardock has an application like Fences which does a pretty good job of corralling your icons. You can create groups of them and label the groups accordingly.

Fences rocks. I have it on all of my PCs.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
kudos:1

2 recommendations

reply to RazzyW8
Most people will never learn the little tricks that you use to make Win 8 usable for you and they shouldn't have to. They really screwed the pooch on this one.
--
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--


RazzyW8

@rr.com
....they are no tricks....