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norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to CylonRed

Re: PC Ram testing software...

said by CylonRed:

I want to test my system ram to see if it is the cause of my PC shutting down in a couple of games. No warning, no BSOD, just playing and then shutdown.

said by MrFixit1:

Time to get serious
.......
10 Does this happen only in games , or will a video test program like FurMark cause it to happen ?
13 What games cause the issue ?
.......

I know this is a hardware forum and the issue could be hardware, but these points suggest at least trying to repeat the shut down with a clean boot to cancel out a software conflict:
»support.microsoft.com/kb/331796

If nothing else works, it is worth adding to the list for testing yes or no to the problem diagnostics.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to MrFixit1

1) XP Pro SP3
2) Asus M4A79XTD EVO AM3 motherboard
3) AMD Phenom 2 x4 945, 4 gigs of GSkill DD3 (1600) ram
4) EVGA GTX 670
5) Nothing OCd.
6) Not that I remember - a zillion settings with this Asus board. At least nothing more than turning off Asus logos and boot priority.
7) Yes...
8) Yes.
9) Nope.
10) So far only games though I am not sure I have run Furmark. I have run Seti#Home 24x7 on PC and video card since I got the vc. Always turn off Seti before playing.
11) Nope.
12) No.
13) Call of Duty - Modern Warfare 3, Black Ops, and Dead Space 2.

Decidedly not heat as well.CPU not getting above 52c (back room PC is in is quite chilly in the winter). Don't remember the temps on the GPU but it was low. I will have to see if I can find the log.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

1 edit

There's no logs what so ever mentioning this - other than the power cycle records in the event viewer?

Edit: grammer



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

The first couple of times there was a note about the nvidia driver and that was with the newest driver. Since I went back to an older driver (earlier this year) - nothing. Just the logs for the services restarting.

I am running Furmark but I expect no issues. Was going to check it before I left for work but I forgot. I plan to check at lunch and see if it is still running.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

Maybe something like hardware acceleration for the graphics card is affecting your system?

But then it got me thinking, did you install the graphics update off Windows update recently?
See here in the security updates topic.
Can you check for KB2670838 in the update history too please?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI
reply to CylonRed

Isn't windows screaming at you about improper shutdown ?
Would expect it to be very unhappy when it restarts .

Will say you have more courage than I do . Not too sure I would leave FurMark running without being there to monitor it
FurMark is designed to run the card up to max temp , and it does a very good job of it .

How loaded is your computer as far as programs installed ?
To put it another way , how much of a hassle would a reinstall of windows be ?
Be sure to try norwegian"s suggestion of a clean boot first though .

You would think that a software conflict would lead to video distortion or freezing instead of shutdown , but since the motherboard is what tells the power supply to shut down , I can see conflicts causing a hard shutdown .

Have you tried down-clocking the video card ?

What you mentioned about setting back video settings helping suggests that the power supply may think it is seeing a short or overload and that is causing it to shut down . The question being if it is a real or false sensing .

What is your normal power supply load when not gaming versus gaming ?

Do wish you had another video card and power supply to try , but what is is .



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

1 edit

FurMark - 7 hours 16 minutes. 76C, 100.9% TDP, fan @ 51%, AA set to 2x 1280x1024 resolution, avg FPS - 43.

Still running when I left the house a 1:40 PM. It was still running when I got back home - that would be almost 12 hours of burn-in running.

Windows asks if I want to boot into Recovery Console or the Windows install - that is it.

Have not tried the clean boot (never had to do that) and a reinstall would be a pain but I will eventually need to do it. I would like to get Win7 in the near future.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to norwegian

Those updates all look to be Windows 7 updates...


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI
reply to CylonRed

Man almost out of ideas
Only hardware that has not been tested are the input devices .
Am thinking that since the failures occur while gaming , but do not seem to occur on computer controlled testing , there might be something wrong with the mouse or keyboard .
I realize that is a real reach though ,and not sure how to test for it . Maybe try using a different USB port ?

Since it happens in 3 different games , don't know if reinstalling the games would do any good .

When you rolled back the video drivers . how did you remove the old drivers ?

I suppose you could also try testing with prime 95 and 3dMark , but have a feeling they will not show anything .

If I had the computer in front of me , I would probably start by imaging the drive to another (external) drive ,then wiping and reinstalling windows . Fully patch windows , then install the video drivers . Install 1 of the games and test . If ok install game 2 etc.
If the problem reoccurs , try power supply first ,then try with only 1 stick of memory (unless more required by motherboard )
, then video card . If problem still persists , try another motherboard.
I realize that this is not practical to do unless you have spare components on hand , which is one of the few advantages to rolling your own

I have a feeling that this is going to be one of those WTF? I didn't know that could cause that moments .



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Use Driver Cleaner Pro to remove the drivers. My keyboard is ancient - literally. It is the keyboard from 1995 and my first PC - Zeos and of course it has an AT connector... Doing the clean reboot to see if it makes any difference..

I dunno - maybe the PSU is still in play.... Or there is a odd software issue but then I think I would upgrade to Win7.

Anyone know if I get the upgrade of Win 7 if I have to have a XP base install or can I do a clean install right from the Win 7 disk?
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

said by CylonRed:

Anyone know if I get the upgrade of Win 7 if I have to have a XP base install or can I do a clean install right from the Win 7 disk?

For that, see these links.
»www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/31···ion.html
»winsupersite.com/article/windows···a-128512
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to CylonRed

quote:
Doing the clean reboot to see if it makes any difference..
It didn't....


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

Those updates all look to be Windows 7 updates...

Yes, sorry I missed the XP O/S you had posted initially.


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

2 edits
reply to CylonRed

said by CylonRed:

quote:
Doing the clean reboot to see if it makes any difference..
It didn't....

That leaves the very core (kernel) of XP or hardware.
As you do not have hardware to swap out it maybe a hard path to check which is causing the issue.

If you install Win 7 and it goes away, I'll be very surprised - stranger things have happened though.
Good luck sorting it out. Maybe someone can spare a power supply or graphics card near by to help the cause?

If you want to clean install the graphics drivers:
Uninstall in the add/remove programs
Look for all files in system32/drivers that are ATI nVidia and delete them, some may be recreated, but do not be concerned.
Uninstall the video card in device manager.
By now you should be looking at a low resolution desktop, 16 bit, not 32 bit.
Also run CCleaner and the registry tool in it.
Then reboot and install the new package.
However I'd leave out installing anything Catalyst Control Center nVidia Control Panel related for now - this is run off NET Framework and best to leave out while checking a clean install of drivers for the hardware. In fact you can usually select what to install in the package or find the download for just the drivers.

Does the bug still show then?
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI

Just so we don't confuse anyone , EVGA GTX 670 is NVIDA
Procedure described is correct though , just switch NVIDA for AMD.-ATI .
Driver Cleaner should have done this , but it never hurts to check .



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

said by MrFixit1:

Just so we don't confuse anyone , EVGA GTX 670 is NVIDA
Procedure described is correct though , just switch NVIDA for AMD.-ATI .

Thanks for picking that up. Cross posted from a similar topic in the help forum.

I know plenty of times drivers are not completely uninstalled due to being in use. Until you see that low res, 16-bit screen resolution, the drivers are still being used.

Mind is elsewhere today too which doesn't help CylonRed See Profile at all.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI
reply to CylonRed

Couple of final thoughts .
Just to confirm , when it shuts down the power light on the motherboard is not on ? Not the one on the front panel but the green one on the board itself ?

If I remember correctly , a short on an AT style keyboard - mouse connector would cause a shutdown . Don't know if that still holds true on current generation boards , since most of the ones I work on seem to use USB . Any chance you have another keyboard available to try ?

Took a look at the manual for that motherboard , see what you mean by options up the wazoo .
Don't think it would do any good , but it looks like it would be easy to save the bios profile that you are using now , and then reset everything to default .



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

said by MrFixit1:

If I remember correctly , a short on an AT style keyboard - mouse connector would cause a shutdown . Don't know if that still holds true on current generation boards , since most of the ones I work on seem to use USB . Any chance you have another keyboard available to try ?

I have seen where a network cable plugged in on a computer that is off but the router is still on has caused issues starting the computer up. Unplugging the lead from the motherboard header and then starting the computer would fix it. So I have no doubts that a short off an old keyboard could cause problems on a computer too.

It's that hardware swap out that really will help answer this one from where we sit.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to CylonRed


Just a couple of other thoughts of things you can try that does not cost anything. MrFixit1 See Profile mentions RAM and saving the profile of the bios and resetting the bios, most of the below items can or could cause power issues on the motherboard side I would think, but saving the current bios profile might be advised first:

1. RAM and trying 1 stick only as mentioned, have you tried the second batch of slots? I'm gathering you are running 2 x 2GB sticks of RAM?
2. Have you tried manually setting the RAM instead of having it set to AUTO. (ref - 3-14)
3. Have you tried turning off Secure Virtual Machine Mode (ref - 3.5.2, 3-16)
I've known my motherboard, an asus amd board too (earlier model), has to have this turned off unless there is virtual machines running - and gaming / over clocking was mentioned when I hung out at the ASUS forum, you would have thought they sorted that one out in later motherboards/chipsets.
4. Have you tried turning off C1E support? (ref - 3-16)
5. You have the latest bios? Microcode updates checked off ASUS support?
6. PCIPnP is set to no? (ref - 3.5.6, 3-20)
7. Suspend Mode is set to off? (ref -3.6.1, 3-21)
8. Disabling of Power On by hardware? (ref - 3.6.4, 3-22)
9. Tried with Quick Boot disabled? (ref - 3.7.2, 3-26)
10. Express Gate disabled? (ref - 3.8.2, 3-29)

Good luck.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Gordo74
Premium
join:2003-10-28
Monroeville, PA
reply to CylonRed

I think it is the power supply.

Also, Windows XP on that hardware could be causing problems as XP was never designed for that level of power.



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to MrFixit1

said by MrFixit1:

Couple of final thoughts .
Just to confirm , when it shuts down the power light on the motherboard is not on ? Not the one on the front panel but the green one on the board itself ?

If I remember correctly , a short on an AT style keyboard - mouse connector would cause a shutdown . Don't know if that still holds true on current generation boards , since most of the ones I work on seem to use USB . Any chance you have another keyboard available to try ?

I could try my wife's keyboard (USB- I hate the thing)... The light on the motherboard stays on actually. Till I turn off the PSU and discharge the capacitors by hitting the front power switch.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to norwegian

I am about 95% sure of my answers:

1) I believe I have tried the other slots but not positive - I will have to recheck. I also need to test another set of ram that was in my wife's PC and I thought was going bad but that apparently was from a bad PSU.

2) Usually set to auto only - I should probably check to make sure the timings are the same using CPU-Z and the bios.

3) Never turned it on since I don't have an OS for it.

4) No idea... one of these days I need find something online that explains many of the settings in the BIOS that I don;t have a clue on...

5) may not be the absolute newest but I did upgrade the bios this year.

6) Pretty sure it is set to No.

7) I believe so.

8) Yes - all disabled.

9) Probably not.

10) I believe it is turned on though I am nto sure why...
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI
reply to CylonRed

OK if you have to discharge the caps to get the light to go out , the fact that is on does not really help. Was hoping that they were actively monitoring the power from the power supply directly
Still not sure if the power supply is initiating the shutdown ,either from a overload or a false trip , or if it is the motherboard doing it .
Could you confirm the make and model of the power supply ?

Can't believe I am saying this since I strongly dislike the GUI , but you can upgrade the OS to 8 for a lot less than 7, at least until the end of January . If you don't have a copy of 7 already it might be worth considering .



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Price is not much of a matter for me - OEM Win7 Pro upgrade can be had for $130. Expensive but I like Win 7 more than Win8. Does Win 8 have XP mode as well? I have enough older software that runs far better on XP.... Going to be bad enough to learn and Apple Os as my ILs are getting my wife an iPad for Christmas - going around my ban of Apple products in my house...

But - when thru the BIOS and found some interesting things....

The BIOS sees different ram timings for the 2 sticks even though they are the same brand/make and bought at the same time. I bought 4 sticks of the same brand/make for our 2 PCs - maybe the ram between my wife's PC and I got mixed but in theory - they should have the same timings.

The timings - on auto are as follows:
9-9-924-5-33-10-4 and
8-2-5-42-110-0

Suspend mode can't be disables - only Auto, S1 and S3.

PCIE Spread Spectrum is disabled.

I do have the newest BIOS.

C1E was disabled.

Disabled quick boot and Express Gate as well.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

1 edit

None of that helped - shut off in less time than the first MP match on MW3...

I also tried to set the ram timings on the faster one to the slower and I can't do it. I don't have the choices for 9-9-9.

I have only bought 3 PSUs inthe past 5 years. The FSP that went bad on my wife's PC, the Corsair I replaced the FSP with and the Thermaltake Toughpower W0128RU 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready Modular Active PFC Power Supply.

The one in my PC is the Thermaltake...
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to CylonRed

There is no XP Mode for Windows 8.
--
KI6RIT



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Did not think so...


MrFixit1

join:1999-11-26
Madison, WI
reply to CylonRed

I noticed you stated that you had updated the bios in an earlier post . Did you do so because of this issue or did this issue start after you updated ?
The manual for the power supply is not totally clear on how it resets from a short or over-current condition . Over-voltage you have to recycle the AC , but they make it sound as though you can reset a short with just the start switch on the computer .

What are the memory timings in your wife's PC?
Pull the stick from yours that is different from her settings and try again .Or swap the positions in yours and see if the timings follow the sticks . If they follow , And the markings on the sticks are the same , you may have found the problem
If they do not follow , you may have a bad BIOS flash , a bad slot , or a bad board

Am assuming the keyboard didn't help any.

Might be worth re-flashing the Bios with a freshly downloaded copy . In this case you want to use one of the boot flash methods , and NOT flash from windows .



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

2 edits

You maybe on to something there.

Something in those RAM timings just doesn't look right.I know this box I'm typing on, if set to auto gives 667, but set to manual I can get the 800 default of the sticks - those numbers just don't look right.

Do you have the specific specs/branding for the G-Skill sticks?

If the keyboard didn't help, I'd certainly look at what causes the timing to be so weird and a bad flash might be the cause - but swapping out the sticks and motherboard slots and recording the timing across all off them in a table, done to 1 at a time to see if you do get mixed readings, until you can pick which specifically is the culprit, channel on the board or stick of ram, or other.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Timings do not change - even if I add both sticks to the second set of ram slots. The second dimm is always the different timing. Even if I use A1 and B1 - if I switch the ram itself between the slots - the different timing does not follow.

I added my wife's 2 sticks (her machine has different ram since I thought hers was going bad). I m now running memtest on her 2 sticks to see if her ram really was bad.

I updated the bios on my wife's machine when I thought it might help her issues. Since we have the exact same motherboard I wanted to keep then in sync and i wanted the added CPU support as well.

I never, ever flash from Windows - well - once by accident on the previous machine. It went well but I was pissed...

NewEgg has all of my order history.. On the ram (on the sticker on the ram) the timings are 9-9-9-24:
»www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a···20231193
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain