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Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL

ADSL Filters and other Prep for Self Install

I am keeping voice on POTS and replacing existing AT&T DSL with U-verse 12MB internet.

My DSL is capped at 3MB speed and my modem could only ever connect at 2.2 at the NID so I am skeptical that a 12MB U-verse self install is going to work smoothly.

My Suttle 694A XDSL splitter is installed at the NID and a CAT5E goes straight from there to where my modem is.

Does the Self Install come with those inline filters for VDSL?

Shall I leave the Suttle installed as-is and just put the VDSL filters on each phone indoors?

I've had problems in the past where the AT&T modem only supports one computer at a time. Does the U-Verse 2wire HGV3800 modem allow more than one computer?

Any gotcha's I should be aware of?


Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
kudos:1

"I've had problems in the past where the AT&T modem only supports one computer at a time. Does the U-Verse 2wire HGV3800 modem allow more than one computer?

My Uverse 2 wire 3800 HGV-B supports at least two computers (all that are in the house) and a wireless printer.



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Ernest House

said by Ernest House:

I am keeping voice on POTS and replacing existing AT&T DSL with U-verse 12MB internet.

My DSL is capped at 3MB speed and my modem could only ever connect at 2.2 at the NID so I am skeptical that a 12MB U-verse self install is going to work smoothly.

Do you know your modem stats? Per the AT&T ToS, they sell a data connect rate, but this includes the ATM encapsulation. So, figuring the encapsulation overhead of ~15%, a modem on the 3.0 Mbps tier will sync at 3008 kbps down, but only deliver ~2500 kbps throughput. So your experience sounds about right.

Knowing the SNR and line attenuation would be helpful for prediction. I used to have, "at&t Yahoo! HSI Pro" (3008/512 profile). With SNR=11.0 dB and attenuation=51.0 dB, that was the highest tier I qualified for. Higher SNR and lower attenuation are better.

BTW, "U-verse HSI" does not use either PPPoE authentication, or ATM. Authentication is 801.1x, and the transport network is PTM. You should get closer to 96% of your modem sync, not the ~85% you currently see. And, without the PPPoE, you should set your MTU to 1500.

My Suttle 694A XDSL splitter is installed at the NID and a CAT5E goes straight from there to where my modem is.

Does the Self Install come with those inline filters for VDSL?

Shall I leave the Suttle installed as-is and just put the VDSL filters on each phone indoors?

AFAIK, that Suttle splitter can remain in place, and you won't need to use the inline filters.

I've had problems in the past where the AT&T modem only supports one computer at a time. Does the U-Verse 2wire HGV3800 modem allow more than one computer?

I am certain that the 2Wire has a four-port router built in. So up to four wired devices (more would require a switch), and up to 253 devices total (mixed wired and wireless).

You must have had a really ancient DSL bridge to hit a one-device limit. Though not supported, any modem subsequent to the SBC-issue Siemens Speedstream 5100B had a routing table, and a Class B subnet (default 192.168/16).

Any gotcha's I should be aware of?

Other than the MTU issue, I can't think of any. And I expect the 2Wire will have the proper MTU out of the box.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL

Thanks for the well written and informative response NormanS.

I've had DSL to this location for 10 years and it seems the wiring to my house is the weak link. I attached my current stats.

My last go around with AT&T was about a year ago when their little Motorola modem died. It allowed multiple computers via my own switch etc but the replacement Moto had upgraded firmware that did not allow multiple computers and I had to buy a more expensive Westel. That was AT&T choosing to force an upgrade and hamstring the Motorola.

I have a network with 2 switches and a 2 wireless access points that have outlasted all the AT&T gear 3 fold. I really just need the modem capability end up paying for the whole 9 yards. Looking forward to the faster speed though.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

With those numbers your line will need some work. When I had ADSL from AT&T, my modem bit loading chart suggested a MaxSync of ~5400 kbps was possible; but they capped to the 3008/512 profile.

Ah, found a picture:

SS4100 bit loading chart.

My reported modem stats were 3008/512 with 11.5 dB SNR and 51.5 dB attenuation. Loop length was 9,156 feet.

Line stats.

Alas, I have no screen shots of the ZTE ZXDSL 830II ADSL2+ modem supplied by my new ISP, Sonic.net, LLC. On the same AT&T copper, the ADSL2+ sync rate is ~5900/500, with 6.0 dB SNR and 51.5 dB attenuation.

As your numbers are now, you are not going to do much better than your current speed on their IP-DSLAM service.

I would recommend a post in the AT&T Direct forum. Link this thread, and show them those numbers. If they can do something to improve your stats, that would be helpful. But, assuming the 57 dB line attenuation is an accurate reflection of the loop length, I don't see how they can give you better than 3.0 Mbps service; even with ADSL2+.

Interesting about that modem. I ran the Siemens SpeedStream 4100 for 5 1/2 years with AT&T, and, interchangeably with the ZTE ZXDSL 830II on the Sonic.net "Fusion" service for another six months (at 9,156 feet, I saw no appreciable difference in sync/speed between ADSL and ADSL2+; the benefit of ADSL2+ needs a shorter run of copper to be manifest).

Two others, that I know of, have run nearly as long.

My good friend in the Fruitdale section of town has a Motorola that's been in steady use for about the last four years.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL
reply to Ernest House

I've gotten no response in the AT&T Direct forum. Any other ideas on how I can prevent a disaster?



ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by Ernest House:

I've gotten no response in the AT&T Direct forum. Any other ideas on how I can prevent a disaster?

Change from a self-installation to a tech install. It may cost a little more, but much less potential for disaster & frustration

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL
reply to Ernest House

AT&T Uverse tier-2 support assures me the self install will work fine.



ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

1 edit

said by Ernest House:

AT&T Uverse tier-2 support assures me the self install will work fine.

I'd get that in writing, and also a written guarantee with ID(s) of the tech support agent(s) of waives of any charges for any failed self installation charges

Some self installs work fine, but many require a (billed) technician revisit for wiring work. The modem, for best performance, really needs to be a on a home ran pair from the NID/Network Interface straight to the modem

You asked for advice on how to prevent disaster

EDIT: I see in the original post you have a line straight from NID to Modem, through the suttle splitter. Is the splitter the 649A enclosure separate from the NID?

And do you know if you are getting ADSL2+ U-Verse or VDSL2 U-Verse?

With ADSL2+, the Suttle should work fine. With VDSL2, a VDSL2 splitter/filter will probably be needed -- if you can be home when the self-install appointment occurs, you could probably get a VDSL2 splitter/filter from the technician

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL

1 edit

Thanks for your help.

The Suttle 694A has Network IN and voice OUT and data OUT. The wiring goes NID to Suttle then CAT5e the Suttle data OUT directly to the modem jack (with no sharp loops or turns).

My u-verse service order is for 12MB service so I understand that would be a 2-wire VDSL modem (HGV3800?). Does the self install kit come with VDSL filters for each phone?



ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

Actually for a self install it should be a 2Wire/Pace 3600 HGV (3800/3801 for customers with IPTV).

It does come with xDSL pigtail filters, but a NID filter is much better IMHO

The install tech who gets sync to the NID will hopefully reconfigure your home run for a VDSL2 NID filter


Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL

Yes, HGV3600 ... memory doesn't serve well. But if it's a self install, there won't be an install tech right?



ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by Ernest House:

Yes, HGV3600 ... memory doesn't serve well. But if it's a self install, there won't be an install tech right?

Almost all VDSL2 self-installations involve a technician dispatch to run the cross connects at the CrossBox to connect your F2 pair that goes to your house to the VRAD. And since a technician is already in the field, he/she is also supposed to verify a good service drop to the house from the pole/pedestal and also that the VDSL2 signal is good to the NID, and that a proper NID is installed, properly grounded, etc

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to Ernest House

said by Ernest House:

Thanks for your help.

The Suttle 694b has Network IN and voice OUT and data OUT. The wiring goes NID to Suttle then CAT5e the Suttle data OUT directly to the modem jack (with no sharp loops or turns).

All of the xDSL filters are 4kHz low pass, just use the Suttle, no need for any other filters.
Unless there is a terminal box neaarby, there is no way your line will handle 12Mbps.


Juneau

@sbcglobal.net

"Unless there is a terminal box neaarby, there is no way your line will handle 12Mbps."

How do you define "neaarby (sp)"?



NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

said by Juneau :

"Unless there is a terminal box neaarby, there is no way your line will handle 12Mbps."

How do you define "neaarby (sp)"?

For ADSL2+ 12 mbps, I think the maximum copper run needs to be no more the 6,500 wire feet (meaning, "as the wire runs", in contrast with "as the crow flies"). For that, SNR needs to be higher, and line attenuation lower than the 7.1 dB/57.0 dB shown by the OP.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL
reply to public

The 2-wire HGV3600 arrived and it comes with filters. The instructions to put them on each phone are the same as DSL. Are these filters different than what my Suttle 694b is already doing?



jl166r

@comcastbusiness.net

Yes… your tech will replace the Suttle (He/She has to roll to prem and verify service at your NID) with a new VDSL2 splitter/filter that will split the VDSL2 & POTS. IMU these have a different filtering frequency, as well as the wall jack filters will also. If you have clean lines then you probably won't even need the jack filters. Most techs dont install them on a full install in our area. Good luck and keep us posted!


Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL
reply to Ernest House

I am in AT&T Support Hell:

I called AT&T and they assured me my line would run at 12MBS and I was ready for the self install. Equipment arrived in time.

A technician named Enrico called next day and said the UVERSE port assigned to me was bad and no more ports available. Another work order to install additional port would take days. Would I like him to hook me back up to ADSL?

I said yes and all was well until 9pm when internet service dropped out. Modem will not authenticate.

After lots of calls, it is revealed that the UVERSE DSLAM open order caused my DSL account to be deleted. It took several calls and lots of waiting on hold for them to issue a "DIE" order to reconnect my order. That is now scheduled for Dec 7 (a week from now). The UVERSE work order will complete about the same time.

Anyone give me odds that UVERSE installs first, I get it working and the the DSL technician comes and moves my to DSL on the 7th?


mudir007

join:2004-02-09
Wynne, AR

Sounds about right for AT&T. They have some brilliant minds running it all, but hire dumbasses to implement/repair/diagnose/serve the customer.

I did a self install from dsl elite 6mb to uverse 12 mb. Was going to even get a 100$ gift card.

For the first month my dsl would resync 2 times a day. ATT decided to downgrade me to 6mb uverse because the line wasn't stable at the higher tier.

Well. that stopped me from getting my 100$ gift card. I had to run through hoops and associate my direct tv with my u verse for the 100$ they owed me.

There is a reason why they are the worst for customer service.

I would just go without internet untill the uverse was hooked up.

With their track record.. you know that they will put you back on DSL.



DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

2 edits
reply to Ernest House

said by Ernest House:

AT&T Uverse tier-2 support assures me the self install will work fine.

LOL!

I love ATT tier 2 agents. Anything to get you off that line!

Generally with ADSL ---> VDSL self install you will have bridge tap. Bridge tap is like kryptonite to VDSL.

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to jl166r

said by jl166r :

new VDSL2 splitter/filter that will split the VDSL2 & POTS. IMU these have a different filtering frequency, as well as the wall jack filters will also.

You are not making any sense. All xdsl filters are 4kHz low pass, all xdsl begins at 20kHz. There are no vdsl specific filters.

jlewsader

join:2012-11-30
Covington, IN

said by public:

You are not making any sense. All xdsl filters are 4kHz low pass, all xdsl begins at 20kHz. There are no vdsl specific filters.

I'm not familiar with his Suttle unit and I can't find specs for the current AT&T sp/fi but if u look at the specs for these two Wilcom units(links below), the ADSL filter only blocks up to 2.2Mhz while the VDSL model blocks up to 30Mhz. Even if he is only getting HSIA and no IPTV, the signal can still be above the 2.2Mhz bandwidth because he will still be getting max atainable line rate pushed to his house. He will most likely be on a 19Mbps profile since he won't be getting IPTV.

»www.wilcominc.com/product_pdfs/P···-007.pdf

»www.wilcominc.com/product_pdfs/P···-004.pdf

Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL
reply to mudir007

I called T-Mobile and they saturday delivery overnighted a USB 4G device. I had my whole house network running on it before lunchtime saturday.

Meanwhile, over the weekend, to their credit, after many calls to support, AT&T support escalated my case to what they called the highest level. This morning, I got a call saying they reinstated my DSL account and after an hour of working through a very slow registration, I had DSL service again.

Right now, my 3MBS DSL connects at 1920. AT&T said they'd work on it to get it better.

I also re-ordered UVERSE and they said they will install it next Tuesday. What kind of performance from the 12 MBS service can I expect?


Ernest House
Premium
join:2008-08-17
Boca Raton, FL

EPILOG: Installation by a tech named Rick went smooth as could be. I'm getting 11.3 down and 1.4 up. Suttle is still inline. The modem comes with filters.

The AT&T process is awful. I have 3 UVERSE modems:
1) The original
2) One for the rescheduled order
3) Some unknown order presumably leftover from the original botched order

LOL... we'll see what the billing turns out being and maybe I won't be laughing.