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M A R S
Premium
join:2001-06-15
Long Island
kudos:1

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to howardfine

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

I'm using Windows 8 right now, i think the metro thing is unnecessary and they need to make it only for a touch screen. It's insane to try to use this on a non touch screen PC or laptop. Why in the world would they think this is the way to go for everyone? I think Windows 8 is the best tool the marketing department at Apple EVER CAME UP WITH! Are the people at Microsoft begging people to buy a Mac?

Windows 8.. It's like play book for what NOT to do on a standard PC or Laptop. Apple knows IOS is for touch devices, Microsoft seems to think Metro is for everything.. ITS NOT! It would be like forcing every one to use a media center PC interface and let one find a way to a basic desktop. Fucking stupid. I'm sure soon enough an update will come out letting people chose what interface they can use. I hope.

I'll be sticking to Windows 7 (I think its the best Microsoft OS since Windows 2K) and Mac OS 10.7..



gzt7d8
Aliens live amongst us
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Swartz Creek, MI
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to howardfine

Interesting article and very to the point on all fronts. I used the Release Candidate on a dual boot earlier this year and if it wasn't for sites like this one or Windows 8 Forums that posts tutorials, I probably would have nuked the drive. It was sites like this that helped me understand where things were hidden and helped me navigate to what I needed and thus lowered my frustration level.

I've been around Windows since Win 2, so I've seen lots of change and I think I've installed just about everyone with the exception of Windows 2000. I watched a video by Jensen Harris from Microsoft which talked about what led to many things we see in Win 8. '»winsupersite.com/windows-8/jense···indows-8' I understand that you have to move forward and not still back on your heals waiting for someone to show you the direction. Windows 8, in my opinion, was a gamble. MS was trying to anticipate what 2012 and beyond would bring to the market.

I've installed it, and I'm getting use to it. I won't go back, don't have any compatibility issues that will force me.

I endured Windows Millennium and Vista, I guess I can stick it out with Windows 8.

Greg
--
"It's not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
Charles Darwin



Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium
join:2012-10-18
reply to mozerd

Deleted

Deleted--post erroneously linked to wrong series of other linked replies.



OverBurn

join:2004-02-21
Greenwood, IN

1 recommendation

reply to howardfine

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

I've been using Windows since 3.1 and I must say my Win8 testing at first was similar to the drunk lady. I didn't like ME or Vista, like most people. XP is by far my all time favorite, but Win7 is visually stunning and just recently became the default boot on my main desktop (I dual boot XP Pro-Win7 Pro).

I hate Win8 with a passion, sometimes new is fun, I usually like learning new things. I've tested Win8 thoroughly for weeks and my opinion of it hasn't changed in the slightest. Win8 is so unappealing that I don't care, every time I try to use it I just want it gone.

I want my Start button back, sure I can use classic shell, but I shouldn't have to. I want Aero back, one of the few things, IMO, that makes Win7 an improvement over XP.

How hard could it have been for for MS to make a setting that changes the entire PC from Metro to back Win7 style?



RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to howardfine

»community.nasdaq.com/News/2012-1···rRodQX94

Didn't stop these buyers


Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to howardfine

"The situation is much worse on regular PCs, particularly for knowledge workers doing productivity tasks in the office. This used to be Microsoft's core audience, and it has now thrown the old customer base under the bus by designing an operating system that removes a powerful PC's benefits in order to work better on smaller devices. "

I could not have said it better myself. I've followed Jacob Nielsen's advice for many years when designing technical publications and websites. And his research is based on real, unbiased user testing, whose methodology he promotes endlessly.

Either MS failed to do their own user testing or (more likely) they decided that the mobile market was more important than their desktop market.


Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by Glen T:

Either MS failed to do their own user testing or (more likely) they decided that the mobile market was more important than their desktop market.

They probably also realized that since they have no significant competition in the desktop market, it wouldn't matter anyway...

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Since you must buy office for the x86 tablets, and the arm tablets get a special version of office it seems clear they tried to make office useable on metro which cannot run normal office versions, however successful it is at doing the same tasks is the question.

It does completely seem they wanted to try their hands at the tablet market, but unifying the interface with the desktops wasn't the best idea.

I'm unfortunately going to have to get a new system soon, and will have to get win 8 so I can more easliy walk people through instructions. Not a bad os, but a horrible gui for a non-touchscreen devices. Even if a device has one it's not the best interface to use.

I'm no stranger to touchscreen devices, it took me forever to write this on a touchscreen phone as I'm away from home currently.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state
reply to howardfine

At first i was skeptical about Windows 8...i wasn't a full blown hater, i was merely skeptical...i was asking myself:

"Does Windows 8 offer enough to warrant upgrading from Windows 7 Pro x64?

Well i downloaded the enterprise trial, installed it (after making a image backup) and gave it a two week test run.

After two weeks...i couldn't imagine myself EVER going back to Windows 7...I thought Windows 7 was perfect, but Windows 8 in terms of performance takes everything Windows 7 had going for it, and made it better!

The Metro UI /Start Screen has its uses...for example your in a hurry and just want to check a sports score...Metro IE works for this, You want to keep track of the latest deals on NewEgg, install the NewEgg app..everytime there is a deal you may be interested in, it displays in the live tile right on your start screen.

Not to mention all my games, Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout, etc all get higher Frame Rates and run better on Windows 8 then they did on 7 (with same hardware)

Windows 8 is Windows for the 21st century. It is truly a revolutionary upgrade in the evolution of not only PC, but tablets, portables, and the like.

Windows 8 is a fine OS and it also supports many new enhanced security technologies not available in Windows 7 such as Enhanced Protected Mode IE,(which makes it more secure then either Firefox or Chrome) SEHOP, ASLR has been improved, and a plethora of other security enhancements.

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms" I say its about time.

Windows 8 is a fine OS, and its not even close to Vista...Vista itself wasn't bad it just lacked driver support...thats what killed it...Windows 7 IS Vista with driver support....Windows 8 is a whole new direction for Windows. Sure, its still Win NT..but the UI, its going to change how we use computers...and for the good!


Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by Woody79_00:

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms"

I agree with you on this point.. I think what you see is what you get, and what you're going to get in the future.. On everything else, I pretty much disagree though. So, for all those of us who don't care for 8 and Metro and the new direction, there will need to be an alternative of some kind, and right now, there aren't many. 7 will do for most of us while our hardware lasts, but what happens when it comes time to buy a new machine? That is the question.

Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Woody79_00

said by Woody79_00:

At first i was skeptical about Windows 8...i wasn't a full blown hater, i was merely skeptical...i was asking myself:

"Does Windows 8 offer enough to warrant upgrading from Windows 7 Pro x64?

Well i downloaded the enterprise trial, installed it (after making a image backup) and gave it a two week test run.

After two weeks...i couldn't imagine myself EVER going back to Windows 7...I thought Windows 7 was perfect, but Windows 8 in terms of performance takes everything Windows 7 had going for it, and made it better!

The Metro UI /Start Screen has its uses...for example your in a hurry and just want to check a sports score...Metro IE works for this, You want to keep track of the latest deals on NewEgg, install the NewEgg app..everytime there is a deal you may be interested in, it displays in the live tile right on your start screen.

Not to mention all my games, Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout, etc all get higher Frame Rates and run better on Windows 8 then they did on 7 (with same hardware)

Windows 8 is Windows for the 21st century. It is truly a revolutionary upgrade in the evolution of not only PC, but tablets, portables, and the like.

Windows 8 is a fine OS and it also supports many new enhanced security technologies not available in Windows 7 such as Enhanced Protected Mode IE,(which makes it more secure then either Firefox or Chrome) SEHOP, ASLR has been improved, and a plethora of other security enhancements.

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms" I say its about time.

Windows 8 is a fine OS, and its not even close to Vista...Vista itself wasn't bad it just lacked driver support...thats what killed it...Windows 7 IS Vista with driver support....Windows 8 is a whole new direction for Windows. Sure, its still Win NT..but the UI, its going to change how we use computers...and for the good!

That's quite the press release.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

said by Woody79_00:

At first i was skeptical about Windows 8...i wasn't a full blown hater, i was merely skeptical...i was asking myself:

"Does Windows 8 offer enough to warrant upgrading from Windows 7 Pro x64?

Well i downloaded the enterprise trial, installed it (after making a image backup) and gave it a two week test run.

After two weeks...i couldn't imagine myself EVER going back to Windows 7...I thought Windows 7 was perfect, but Windows 8 in terms of performance takes everything Windows 7 had going for it, and made it better!

The Metro UI /Start Screen has its uses...for example your in a hurry and just want to check a sports score...Metro IE works for this, You want to keep track of the latest deals on NewEgg, install the NewEgg app..everytime there is a deal you may be interested in, it displays in the live tile right on your start screen.

Not to mention all my games, Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout, etc all get higher Frame Rates and run better on Windows 8 then they did on 7 (with same hardware)

Windows 8 is Windows for the 21st century. It is truly a revolutionary upgrade in the evolution of not only PC, but tablets, portables, and the like.

Windows 8 is a fine OS and it also supports many new enhanced security technologies not available in Windows 7 such as Enhanced Protected Mode IE,(which makes it more secure then either Firefox or Chrome) SEHOP, ASLR has been improved, and a plethora of other security enhancements.

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms" I say its about time.

Windows 8 is a fine OS, and its not even close to Vista...Vista itself wasn't bad it just lacked driver support...thats what killed it...Windows 7 IS Vista with driver support....Windows 8 is a whole new direction for Windows. Sure, its still Win NT..but the UI, its going to change how we use computers...and for the good!

Doesn't address the topic of usabiliy, though...


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to howardfine

40 millions Windows 8 licenses SOLD



EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
canada
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to Oedipus

Ever read the scam & phishbusters forum here, specifically the A.Morrison pages? Some posters here read like the 'defenders' that post over there.
IOW, not honest.
--
~ Project Hope ~



M A R S
Premium
join:2001-06-15
Long Island
kudos:1
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

but what happens when it comes time to buy a new machine? That is the question.

I just picked up a new machine today. It does not run Win 8

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

said by M A R S:

said by Kerodo:

but what happens when it comes time to buy a new machine? That is the question.

I just picked up a new machine today. It does not run Win 8

Yes, it can be done right now, but what about a year from now? Unfortunately, the only choices will be Linux, which isn't the solution really, or Apple, which costs a lot more, or whatever MS is selling at the time... guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.


EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
canada
Reviews:
·voip.ms

Remember ME? Piece of trash OS that people had to take, as there was no choice at the brick and mortar.
It'll play out the same way it has for over a decade and a half now.
Buy your machine with the installed OS that the manufacture dictates to you, MS counts it as a sale, (proving their new OS is a 'hit'), you go home, reformat, and install whatever you want to.
Or buy the parts, build your own, and install whatever.
--
~ Project Hope ~



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to RazzyW8

So 40 million times $40 is $1.6 billion versus to 40 million times $120 upgrade of Windows 7 which is $4.8 billion. So Microsoft has lost $3.2 billioin this upgrade compared to last so far.

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08
reply to EUS

said by EUS:

Remember ME? Piece of trash OS that people had to take, as there was no choice at the brick and mortar.
It'll play out the same way it has for over a decade and a half now.
Buy your machine with the installed OS that the manufacture dictates to you, MS counts it as a sale, (proving their new OS is a 'hit'), you go home, reformat, and install whatever you want to.
Or buy the parts, build your own, and install whatever.

Yep, I actually bought an ME machine and within a few weeks, I installed Windows 2000 on it and was happy for years...

If I had to buy something a year from now, I'd probably do that again, and put 7 back on it, and hope that there were drivers for 7 for any new hardware that I encountered. I'd probably be fine...


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to EUS

said by EUS:

Remember ME? Piece of trash OS that people had to take, as there was no choice at the brick and mortar.
It'll play out the same way it has for over a decade and a half now.
Buy your machine with the installed OS that the manufacture dictates to you, MS counts it as a sale, (proving their new OS is a 'hit'), you go home, reformat, and install whatever you want to.
Or buy the parts, build your own, and install whatever.

Maybe a very small amount of people will.

I still get many Vista machines coming through my shop. In fact I just repaired 2 Vista machines yesterday (one was bad RAM and other had FBI warning virus). None today as it slowed down again.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

So 40 million times $40 is $1.6 billion versus to 40 million times $120 upgrade of Windows 7 which is $4.8 billion. So Microsoft has lost $3.2 billioin this upgrade compared to last so far.

There was ample opportunity to buy the Windows 7 Home Premium upgrade licenses for ~$50 USD so that math isn't exactly accurate.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

In the first month? I got that price from an article talking about the price of upgrading to Win7 and they said that was the current (then) cost.


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to howardfine

Their stock prices also continue trending down, and win 8 along with the tablets have not changed this trend. It sure looks like somebody was gambling with the future of the company here, and it sure wasn't Gates.

I don't see the holiday season being kind to them so far.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

In the first month? I got that price from an article talking about the price of upgrading to Win7 and they said that was the current (then) cost.

If you make calculations that use something like the mass of an object and that mass is constant like a projectile, it greatly reduces the complexity.

If you make calculations that use something like the mass of an object but that mass changes over time like a rocket burning fuel you’ll need to adjust your calculations accordingly,……to be accurate.

If you go to Amazon.com or some other retail dealer you’ll likely find a current price for Windows 7 Home premium well below that of the cited $120. Also note that the Windows 7 family 3 pack was sporadically available for ~$150. Therefore the price wasn't exactly constant,...

Recall that I referred to being accurate not being outright wrong. They are very different things.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

said by Woody79_00:

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms"

I agree with you on this point.. I think what you see is what you get, and what you're going to get in the future..

Maybe not. MS walked away from their investment in Aero. I think it largely depends on the success of Surface. If Surface goes the way of Zune, then MS may run back to the safety of their corporate desktop.

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

I sure hope so....



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Octavean

What I was talking about was the very first month Windows 7 was out, not current prices, compared to the very first month of Win 8 at current prices. The price for Windows 7 back then was $120 durings its first month.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

No I don’t think that’s accurate even if you narrow it down to that timeframe.

I have six Windows 7 Home Premium licenses I purchased for ~$50 each when Windows 7 was first released (IE the first few days of release). Three were purchased from Newegg and were retail package upgrades. Three individual licenses in one order was the limit. The other three were downloads from the Microsoft store. I also received 2 free Windows 7 Ultimate licenses.

I believe the family pack was available very early after the Windows 7 official release as well.

So again, no I don’t believe that assertion is accurate.

Likewise I believe I paid the same amount for Vista Upgrades of the same number (six) and received the same number of free licenses (relative to release).

Windows 8 brought the price down for me by ~$10 per upgrade license for a total of ~$40 but I also have Technet subscription now.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to howardfine

I know this might be a waste of time and words, but lets actually talk usability.

One of the biggest changes recently in OS user design is the lack of traditional visual clues as to what a user can or should do with an OS. For example in an application you have a menu, which is a usability feature in that it presents a list of what choices a user has, this is a visual usability feature. The Windows start button, programs folder, etc are all visual usability clues as to what a user can do. Now four important changes have occurred which has impacted visual usability clues. First mobile devices where screen real estate is at a premium and visual clues have been reduced as result, second reduction of functionality of devices, for example loss of multi-tasking such as the iPad meant a number of visual clues around task switching are no longer needed (if you can accept using a single tasking OS which is another question altogether), which in a number of cases is not optional as again there is often a problem of interface real estate (ie how many apps can occupy the screen of your phone simultaneously or if you had a keyboard event for example which app does it go to as active/non active comes into play here and actually touch and gestures are an interesting consideration for concurrent screen apps as there are very few universal standards), and third there is a change in users, in that users today typically grew up with computers/game consoles/etc and so interface designers can take advantage of some of that previous experience, especially from gamers in terms of user initiated exploration. Lastly why people use computers has changed, in that more people are using computers as simply entertainment devices, ie they are purely content consumers and not content creators, other than creating simple content like posting a tweet, or a picture. As a software developer for example you will never use your phone or a tablet to create software unless under massive duress and even then you know your likely to fail as the ergonomics of such a device are not supportive of your objective.

Now the problem that most users here have brought up with Windows 8 is how to 'work' Windows 8 and they have this problem as they are used to traditional OS's which presented them with enough visual clues that they knew what they could do and how to do it. While this has been an area of UI research for decades, Apple/Google went for it with the iPhone/Android/iPad and given the success Apple had (maybe not in sheer numbers, but certainly in profit) and Google (perhaps more in numbers then Apple has, buy less in profit then Apple has), of course Microsoft was going to release a similar product (and has in the past, however implementations, technology, economics and users weren't ready or perhaps correct at those times). None of these products are big on traditional usability, there are far fewer visual clues then say in Windows 7, but they have all had a measure of success and the question would be why? I'll argue that users have changed as per point 3 and 4 above and so the traditional rules of usability have change. I would have expected Jakob Nielsen to know that and adjust his usability expectations accordingly.
My Windows 8 RT devices works nicely for what I use them for and I like the usability features as I understand how and why usability has changed for such a device, but I also understand that this 'change' in usability is only beginning and devices will evolve quickly and in ways most people haven’t yet considered (hence why I love seeing what people do with the Kinect for example as it offer different usability than anything else before at a consumer level).

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool