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RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to EUS

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

said by EUS:

Remember ME? Piece of trash OS that people had to take, as there was no choice at the brick and mortar.
It'll play out the same way it has for over a decade and a half now.
Buy your machine with the installed OS that the manufacture dictates to you, MS counts it as a sale, (proving their new OS is a 'hit'), you go home, reformat, and install whatever you want to.
Or buy the parts, build your own, and install whatever.

Maybe a very small amount of people will.

I still get many Vista machines coming through my shop. In fact I just repaired 2 Vista machines yesterday (one was bad RAM and other had FBI warning virus). None today as it slowed down again.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

So 40 million times $40 is $1.6 billion versus to 40 million times $120 upgrade of Windows 7 which is $4.8 billion. So Microsoft has lost $3.2 billioin this upgrade compared to last so far.

There was ample opportunity to buy the Windows 7 Home Premium upgrade licenses for ~$50 USD so that math isn't exactly accurate.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

In the first month? I got that price from an article talking about the price of upgrading to Win7 and they said that was the current (then) cost.


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to howardfine

Their stock prices also continue trending down, and win 8 along with the tablets have not changed this trend. It sure looks like somebody was gambling with the future of the company here, and it sure wasn't Gates.

I don't see the holiday season being kind to them so far.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

In the first month? I got that price from an article talking about the price of upgrading to Win7 and they said that was the current (then) cost.

If you make calculations that use something like the mass of an object and that mass is constant like a projectile, it greatly reduces the complexity.

If you make calculations that use something like the mass of an object but that mass changes over time like a rocket burning fuel you’ll need to adjust your calculations accordingly,……to be accurate.

If you go to Amazon.com or some other retail dealer you’ll likely find a current price for Windows 7 Home premium well below that of the cited $120. Also note that the Windows 7 family 3 pack was sporadically available for ~$150. Therefore the price wasn't exactly constant,...

Recall that I referred to being accurate not being outright wrong. They are very different things.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

said by Woody79_00:

For those you thinking Microsoft is going to back off the MetroUI and design decisions for Windows 9 your sadly mistaken. Microsoft has put a lot of time, money, and resources into Metro...porting it over to Xbox 360/Xbox Live and to the Tablet and Windows Phone market...Microsoft is in it for the long haul with the "unified interface over all platforms"

I agree with you on this point.. I think what you see is what you get, and what you're going to get in the future..

Maybe not. MS walked away from their investment in Aero. I think it largely depends on the success of Surface. If Surface goes the way of Zune, then MS may run back to the safety of their corporate desktop.

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

I sure hope so....



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Octavean

What I was talking about was the very first month Windows 7 was out, not current prices, compared to the very first month of Win 8 at current prices. The price for Windows 7 back then was $120 durings its first month.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

No I don’t think that’s accurate even if you narrow it down to that timeframe.

I have six Windows 7 Home Premium licenses I purchased for ~$50 each when Windows 7 was first released (IE the first few days of release). Three were purchased from Newegg and were retail package upgrades. Three individual licenses in one order was the limit. The other three were downloads from the Microsoft store. I also received 2 free Windows 7 Ultimate licenses.

I believe the family pack was available very early after the Windows 7 official release as well.

So again, no I don’t believe that assertion is accurate.

Likewise I believe I paid the same amount for Vista Upgrades of the same number (six) and received the same number of free licenses (relative to release).

Windows 8 brought the price down for me by ~$10 per upgrade license for a total of ~$40 but I also have Technet subscription now.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to howardfine

I know this might be a waste of time and words, but lets actually talk usability.

One of the biggest changes recently in OS user design is the lack of traditional visual clues as to what a user can or should do with an OS. For example in an application you have a menu, which is a usability feature in that it presents a list of what choices a user has, this is a visual usability feature. The Windows start button, programs folder, etc are all visual usability clues as to what a user can do. Now four important changes have occurred which has impacted visual usability clues. First mobile devices where screen real estate is at a premium and visual clues have been reduced as result, second reduction of functionality of devices, for example loss of multi-tasking such as the iPad meant a number of visual clues around task switching are no longer needed (if you can accept using a single tasking OS which is another question altogether), which in a number of cases is not optional as again there is often a problem of interface real estate (ie how many apps can occupy the screen of your phone simultaneously or if you had a keyboard event for example which app does it go to as active/non active comes into play here and actually touch and gestures are an interesting consideration for concurrent screen apps as there are very few universal standards), and third there is a change in users, in that users today typically grew up with computers/game consoles/etc and so interface designers can take advantage of some of that previous experience, especially from gamers in terms of user initiated exploration. Lastly why people use computers has changed, in that more people are using computers as simply entertainment devices, ie they are purely content consumers and not content creators, other than creating simple content like posting a tweet, or a picture. As a software developer for example you will never use your phone or a tablet to create software unless under massive duress and even then you know your likely to fail as the ergonomics of such a device are not supportive of your objective.

Now the problem that most users here have brought up with Windows 8 is how to 'work' Windows 8 and they have this problem as they are used to traditional OS's which presented them with enough visual clues that they knew what they could do and how to do it. While this has been an area of UI research for decades, Apple/Google went for it with the iPhone/Android/iPad and given the success Apple had (maybe not in sheer numbers, but certainly in profit) and Google (perhaps more in numbers then Apple has, buy less in profit then Apple has), of course Microsoft was going to release a similar product (and has in the past, however implementations, technology, economics and users weren't ready or perhaps correct at those times). None of these products are big on traditional usability, there are far fewer visual clues then say in Windows 7, but they have all had a measure of success and the question would be why? I'll argue that users have changed as per point 3 and 4 above and so the traditional rules of usability have change. I would have expected Jakob Nielsen to know that and adjust his usability expectations accordingly.
My Windows 8 RT devices works nicely for what I use them for and I like the usability features as I understand how and why usability has changed for such a device, but I also understand that this 'change' in usability is only beginning and devices will evolve quickly and in ways most people haven’t yet considered (hence why I love seeing what people do with the Kinect for example as it offer different usability than anything else before at a consumer level).

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Apply that thinking to where they buried the shutdown option, one of our more overly verbose members about anything they are currently obsessing about was complaining about visual colors, yet they had not figured how to turn off the machine from the menus yet..... Where are they going to bury next? In another non-logical location, and not near the logout button again. They apparently wanted to frustrate users by hiding them behind hidden, and obscure menus.

Videos on youtube prove this, and stores offering training just show how bad the interface is that it's not visually obvious.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

said by M A R S:

said by Kerodo:

but what happens when it comes time to buy a new machine? That is the question.

I just picked up a new machine today. It does not run Win 8

Yes, it can be done right now, but what about a year from now? Unfortunately, the only choices will be Linux, which isn't the solution really, or Apple, which costs a lot more, or whatever MS is selling at the time... guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

With Dell, I could not get an XPS 8500 desktop through Sm/Med business division or through Sm/Med business Member Purchase Program that had DECENT configuration choices UNLESS I ordered a Win 8 machine. I had ordered a Win 7 machine on Oct 23...XPS 8500 desktop. Dell cancelled that order a week later stating that the video card was no longer available and would never be available unless I ordered the machine with Win 8. That card (ATI 7870) had been available since first of May on XPS 8500 machines with Win 7.

So, I ended up with a Win 8 machine for which Dell is refusing to send a Win 8 Pro Reinstallation disk so I can turn off secure boot and reinstall Windows 8 in legacy mode. Dell is also refusing to send a Win 7 Pro disk so I can exercise my Microsoft downgrade rights. I am not the only person being denied the disks (lot of frustrated Dell users with the same problem posting in Dell forums).

I am trying to return the machine and being stalled in a variety of ways.

If I wanted a Vostro, Optiplex or Precision through Sm/Med business (and NO ordering through Sm/Med business MPP) I could get a machine with Win7 still but I want an XPS desktop.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

said by Mele20:

So, I ended up with a Win 8 machine for which Dell is refusing to send a Win 8 Pro Reinstallation disk so I can turn off secure boot and reinstall Windows 8 in legacy mode. Dell is also refusing to send a Win 7 Pro disk so I can exercise my Microsoft downgrade rights. I am not the only person being denied the disks (lot of frustrated Dell users with the same problem posting in Dell forums).

Are you telling us that you can't turn off secure boot in your new Windows 8 computer?

If it's correct, then why? There is no such option in your BIOS? There is an option, but if you turn it off there, Windows 8 won't boot? Something else?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to BlitzenZeus

On my Surface (what I'm using to write this reply) who uses shutdown, so it is totally reasonable to bury that functionally. As for my desktop, I shutdown maybe once a year (other then update restarts which the updater does for me), so again functionality that is OK to bury.

If I wanted to shutdown its a swipe from the right edge press settings and press power and I have my choice of what I want to do as it not just on/off anymore. How do you turn off an iPad or just about any phone anymore, simple you don't, so why should Windows 8 be any different, as likely the power management of the device by default is going to save you money on your power bill compared to manually managing the power state of the device. Power buttons are rather 80ish anymore and not worthy of front row usability.

Blake
Edit - there is a power button on the top right corner of the surface but its really a sleep/wakeup button, but if you hold it down it will shutdown your surface, but again how often have I done that, well once to see if I held the button down if it would shutdown in order to add this edit. Me I just close the cover and walk away, and when I pick it up I simply open the cover and that's pretty much it for off and on anymore.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to OZO

I got it turned off in bios (secure boot). This put it to legacy boot for the next boot. I rebooted and, after the Dell logo, on a black screen I got the message "NTLDR is missing. Press Ctr + Alt+ Del to restart". I do that and get the error message again.

I was informed by regulars and dell employees at Dell forums that I have to reinstall windows 8 in legacy mode which I can't do without the disk. In other words, apparently, you cannot just switch in the BIOS from secure boot to legacy boot whichever you want whenever. That was what I thought I would be able to do.

I have only asked in Dell forums but I am not the only one asking about this and Dell forum helpers, Dell employees who post there give vague answers. So, maybe there is a way to turn off secure boot in bios and then boot Win 8 in legacy mode but I can't see what I missed. The new bios has almost zero instructions on navigating it....not the same as in legacy bios..

I tried to set it back to secure boot but it didn't "take" even though I clicked save changes before exiting. So, I got the error again, rebooted entered bios again and sure enough it is stuck on "Load Legacy OPROM". I can't change that to "secure boot" because the prompt window does not appear where I would switch from enabled to disabled. I also cannot change "Secure Boot State" from disabled to enabled because the arrow keys skip over that ..why I don't know.

Finally, I went to Exit tab and chose "load optimized defaults" thinking that would reset all changes back to default ones. When I tried to execute that command a message popped up saying "Load optimized defaults will also reset Secure boot keys. Do you wish to continue'? I wasn't sure but I thought that meant if I had installed a Linux key (Microsoft has not issued any to Linux yet but they have asked for them) or some other special secure boot key that those would be wiped out if I went through with "load optimized defaults" but I don't have any special secure boot keys so I said yes to continue loading optimized defaults.

I am still stuck in Load Legacy OPROM boot mode. Maybe a full shutdown and then cold boot will get things unstuck and back to secure boot?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger

On a desktop power management in Win 8 is CRAP. Much worse than in Win 7 or Vista and FAR FAR worse than in XP which is how it should be. This is a desktop...not a laptop, not a phone, not a tablet. It is a desktop and nothing should have been changed from XP where it is simple and quick to set up Power Management. Each OS since XP has had more and more convoluted, more and more time taking setup for what should be very simple...power always on, never shut down disks, system hibernates never (that is handled by Power Chute software not Windows), turn off monitor after X number of minutes.

I can swipe and swipe and swipe and NEVER get that insultingly named (I am not three years old) Charm bracelet crap. When I don't want that Charm bracelet it constantly pops up (along with a gigantic clock indicating Microsoft thinks I am blind...but if I want it so I can shut down...I can't get it to pop up. After much frustration, I finally get it and then I have to jump through a bunch of hoops just to shut down. That's nuts. Any extra mouse or keyboard movements mean extra risk for various problems with my hands, thumbs, wrists, etc. I don't want those risks. I already have chronic thumb/grip problem from computer use and don't want to keep losing ability to use my right hand for a week while things heal.

Why is there this desperate need for GUI uniformity across these devices? It will kill the desktop. I have no cell phone, tablet, or laptop and have zero interest in or need of any of those. LEAVE MY DESKTOP ALONE is what I say to Microsoft and stop trying to kill Linux (and XP) dual boot with this horrible secure boot crap (that has already been compromised security wise).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to Link Logger

The battery life of laptops doesn't allow you to keep them on 24/7 unless you keep them plugged in like a desktop all the time, and you assume there will be no complications when they automatically hibernate, otherwise attempt to shutdown when the battery is low. It's so easy to just turn it off, and let it charge when you're not going to use it for a long time. Also when transporting it to make sure the hhd heads are parked.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Mele20

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Typically I accept or at least haven't felt a need to change my default power settings, and again how often do users change this, so why make it a front line usability feature (ie at the cost of what)?

One important feature that is needed for modern OS's anymore is a good search system for when people are trying to use infrequent features like power settings is search, Windows 8 does pretty good with that, just search 'power' select 'system' and there is a pretty good menu for taking you pretty much exactly where you want to go.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Mele20

Mele20 See Profile, I think you should open a new thread, specifically dedicated to the discussion about how to turn off secure boot in Windows 8 installation. It's actually an interesting subject, that requires detailed and separated discussion. It's not closely related to the current subject of this thread though... So, please open the new thread and put into it what you've mentioned in your posts here.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to BlitzenZeus

Three words, solid state drives.

Actually I have one SSD and one spinny drive in my laptop, so I can't entirely count on those three words either, but that is where the world is going combined with the all magical cloud. Now my laptop is running Windows 7 (and to honest I don't see that changing anytime soon as Windows 7 is working nicely for me, but I suspect my next laptop will run Windows 8 as that is what is installed when you buy them, but I can always install 7 if I so wish) and the existing power management of the system has been working well enough for me to leave it in default. What I find telling anymore is even my external monitors have their own power management (Samsung SA850's as I felt 30" monitors were just too big).

When I do take my laptop I either put it to sleep, hibernate or shutdown as part of my disconnect and pack up process depending on where I'm going. My surface just gets chucked in the bag as is.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Typically I accept or at least haven't felt a need to change my default power settings, and again how often do users change this, so why make it a front line usability feature (ie at the cost of what)?

Power settings should be accessed easily via right click on desktop and choosing Properties, where you should be able to change wait time to turn off screen and other settings, related to power management. I'm not proposing something new here. It was done this simple way in XP...

I don't accept default settings as you do, and I need to change those settings accordingly to my current usage of computer. For example, usually I need to turn screen off after a short period of time (5 min). But when I read or edit long texts (and/or I have to keep it on the screen, while doing other tasks on my desk), I prefer to set that timeout to a longer time span. So, I found that ability to change the timeout quite handy... As some may say - we all different and we use computers differently. What is good for you (default settings) is not so good for me...

I guess you'd agree, that it was logical to get to screen saver settings by getting to Properties dialog box right from the screen. Requiring a search engine to get to those settings is completely illogical and diminishes usability of Windows OS.

One more example - shutting down computer. From my experience working with many computers I know that sometimes I have to be able to safely turn off computer without even looking at its screen. With XP it was easy to do: Win + Up + Enter (+ R) + Enter. That's it. I hope that the newest version of Windows OS offer the same ability. Otherwise its usability is diminishing again...

What is the purpose or removing and / or hiding useful features from desktop OS, that we are experiencing in the latest versions of Windows OS since WXP?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger

Power Chute only handles hibernation and that is good because XP hibernation is poor. Power Chute can gracefully put the computer into hibernation when a power outage occurs and your APC UPS is nearing the end of its battery power. I only allow hibernation if the power goes off and there needs to be a managed shut down or hibernation performed because I am away from the system at that time).

There is a new version of Power Chute software that I don't think works on XP but does on Vista/Win 7 and Win 8. I like Power Chute software so much that I will likely purchase a new APC UPS so I can use the software (but not if I have to purchase a pure sine wave UPS as APC's units are very expensive...other brands are better priced).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to OZO

Some of the tricks available in previous versions of Windows still apply. Press Ctrl+Alt+Del, for instance, click the power button in the bottom right-hand corner and you'll be presented with the same 'Shut Down' and 'Restart' options.

And if you're on the desktop, press Alt+F4 and you'll be able to choose 'Shut Down', 'Restart', 'Sign Out' or 'Switch User' options. And of course you can create your own keyboard short cuts if you wish.

As far as the power options from the screen, debatable as I don't consider the screen saver to be a 'power' option, but even in Windows 7 there is a link to Change Power Settings from the screen saver settings as is there for Windows 8 in the desktop mode so your still covered.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Oh, god no - it's horrible. I buy the APC UPSes but never install their crapware; the bundled Windows support is much better.

Glen T

join:2003-11-03
BC

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

I watched that presentation from the head of the MS Win8 design team and was struck by the irony of it all. Doing more with less is the MS theme. He spends the first half his presentation talking about revolutionary vs. evoluationary change in other technological fields, while ignoring the fact that Win8 on Surface is actually an evolutionary change itself, because the Apple iPad already got there first.

According to that presentation, what MS envisions is that we will all be carrying around tablet PCs, with maybe a docking station, keyboard and larger monitor for work purposes. Our work computers will be our personal computers too, with all of our music and movies and photos. This alone sounds like a corporate IT nightmare.

So, assuming the above to be true, the company I work for is an ISV and we produce chemical engineering software with a CAD front end. So MS's vision of our future is that we will rewrite 1M+ lines of code into an HTML5 app (which he actually describes as "anyone who can make a website can make an application") that will run on a 10" single window screen, with no pointing device other than our fingers, and presumably bought from the MS App Store so that MS can take a share of our profits. Seriously??

When we started working on our software in the mid-80's the typical monitor was EGA resolution. We spent $4000 on a VGA monitor and video card to get the extra resolution - that's 640 x 480 for you youngsters. Over the years we gradually saw video capabilities expand and prices drop, until it became possible, for very little money, to have two 1920 x 1200 resolution monitors hooked up to an average PC. The Holy Grail!

And now, through a convergence of entertainment industry influence, we are seeing these achievements slip away. Monitors are now being compressed into HD formats. Video output of PCs is also going this way with many PCs only offering HDMI output. And now, add Windows 8 and their "revolutionary, do more with less" philosophy.

On the day when I can buy an integrated desktop display that looks like the one above for less than $1000, then this whole concept might start to make sense. But not today.

This is design to the lowest common denominator, sacrificing usability and utility en route. The entertainment industry is the tail wagging the dog. In an era of high customization of everthing, it is simply absurd to produce a one-size-fits-all solution.

But maybe MS will get their revolutionary change, but not quite as they envision it. It's time for a bunch of MS people to quit and start their own company, which will be aimed squarely at servicing the abandoned corporate sector. The vacuum must be filled.

Viva la revolution!!


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

What I was talking about was the very first month Windows 7 was out, not current prices, compared to the very first month of Win 8 at current prices. The price for Windows 7 back then was $120 durings its first month.

Like he said, there were $50 upgrade promotion at the time. Also Microsoft was giving away Windows 7 licenses for FREE to PC buyers while they were selling it for $15 for Windows 8 promotional upgrade.
Expand your moderator at work

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to Glen T

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

So Microsoft wants toss business clients under the bus, and tell them to adapt to consumer devices... Apparently they should be doing all their work over vpn, and remote desktop to make sure to keep information off these insecure devices. Nothing like trade secrets, and private information getting lost for some laptop thief to find.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to dave

said by dave:

said by Link Logger:

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Oh, god no - it's horrible. I buy the APC UPSes but never install their crapware; the bundled Windows support is much better.

It works beautifully on XP Pro. How it works on Vista/Win7 I don't know. Windows support is HORRIBLE on XP. Please don't try to defend it on XP.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

Nah, Powerchute has been horrible forever. Ugly UI, not well-integrated, calls too much attention to itself.