Apply that thinking to where they buried the shutdown option, one of our more overly verbose members about anything they are currently obsessing about was complaining about visual colors, yet they had not figured how to turn off the machine from the menus yet..... Where are they going to bury next? In another non-logical location, and not near the logout button again. They apparently wanted to frustrate users by hiding them behind hidden, and obscure menus.

Videos on youtube prove this, and stores offering training just show how bad the interface is that it's not visually obvious.

actions · 2012-Nov-27 11:41 pm ·

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Kerodo

Premium Member

2012-Nov-27 11:56 pm

to Kerodo

said by Kerodo:

said by M A R S:

said by Kerodo:

but what happens when it comes time to buy a new machine? That is the question.

I just picked up a new machine today. It does not run Win 8

Yes, it can be done right now, but what about a year from now? Unfortunately, the only choices will be Linux, which isn't the solution really, or Apple, which costs a lot more, or whatever MS is selling at the time... guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

With Dell, I could not get an XPS 8500 desktop through Sm/Med business division or through Sm/Med business Member Purchase Program that had DECENT configuration choices UNLESS I ordered a Win 8 machine. I had ordered a Win 7 machine on Oct 23...XPS 8500 desktop. Dell cancelled that order a week later stating that the video card was no longer available and would never be available unless I ordered the machine with Win 8. That card (ATI 7870) had been available since first of May on XPS 8500 machines with Win 7.

So, I ended up with a Win 8 machine for which Dell is refusing to send a Win 8 Pro Reinstallation disk so I can turn off secure boot and reinstall Windows 8 in legacy mode. Dell is also refusing to send a Win 7 Pro disk so I can exercise my Microsoft downgrade rights. I am not the only person being denied the disks (lot of frustrated Dell users with the same problem posting in Dell forums).

I am trying to return the machine and being stalled in a variety of ways.

If I wanted a Vostro, Optiplex or Precision through Sm/Med business (and NO ordering through Sm/Med business MPP) I could get a machine with Win7 still but I want an XPS desktop.

actions · 2012-Nov-27 11:56 pm ·

OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 12:13 am

said by Mele20:

So, I ended up with a Win 8 machine for which Dell is refusing to send a Win 8 Pro Reinstallation disk so I can turn off secure boot and reinstall Windows 8 in legacy mode. Dell is also refusing to send a Win 7 Pro disk so I can exercise my Microsoft downgrade rights. I am not the only person being denied the disks (lot of frustrated Dell users with the same problem posting in Dell forums).

Are you telling us that you can't turn off secure boot in your new Windows 8 computer?

If it's correct, then why? There is no such option in your BIOS? There is an option, but if you turn it off there, Windows 8 won't boot? Something else?

actions · 2012-Nov-28 12:13 am ·

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

1 edit

Link Logger to BlitzenZeus

MVM

2012-Nov-28 2:07 am

to BlitzenZeus

On my Surface (what I'm using to write this reply) who uses shutdown, so it is totally reasonable to bury that functionally. As for my desktop, I shutdown maybe once a year (other then update restarts which the updater does for me), so again functionality that is OK to bury.

If I wanted to shutdown its a swipe from the right edge press settings and press power and I have my choice of what I want to do as it not just on/off anymore. How do you turn off an iPad or just about any phone anymore, simple you don't, so why should Windows 8 be any different, as likely the power management of the device by default is going to save you money on your power bill compared to manually managing the power state of the device. Power buttons are rather 80ish anymore and not worthy of front row usability.

Blake
Edit - there is a power button on the top right corner of the surface but its really a sleep/wakeup button, but if you hold it down it will shutdown your surface, but again how often have I done that, well once to see if I held the button down if it would shutdown in order to add this edit. Me I just close the cover and walk away, and when I pick it up I simply open the cover and that's pretty much it for off and on anymore.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 2:07 am ·

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to OZO

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 2:21 am

to OZO

I got it turned off in bios (secure boot). This put it to legacy boot for the next boot. I rebooted and, after the Dell logo, on a black screen I got the message "NTLDR is missing. Press Ctr + Alt+ Del to restart". I do that and get the error message again.

I was informed by regulars and dell employees at Dell forums that I have to reinstall windows 8 in legacy mode which I can't do without the disk. In other words, apparently, you cannot just switch in the BIOS from secure boot to legacy boot whichever you want whenever. That was what I thought I would be able to do.

I have only asked in Dell forums but I am not the only one asking about this and Dell forum helpers, Dell employees who post there give vague answers. So, maybe there is a way to turn off secure boot in bios and then boot Win 8 in legacy mode but I can't see what I missed. The new bios has almost zero instructions on navigating it....not the same as in legacy bios..

I tried to set it back to secure boot but it didn't "take" even though I clicked save changes before exiting. So, I got the error again, rebooted entered bios again and sure enough it is stuck on "Load Legacy OPROM". I can't change that to "secure boot" because the prompt window does not appear where I would switch from enabled to disabled. I also cannot change "Secure Boot State" from disabled to enabled because the arrow keys skip over that ..why I don't know.

Finally, I went to Exit tab and chose "load optimized defaults" thinking that would reset all changes back to default ones. When I tried to execute that command a message popped up saying "Load optimized defaults will also reset Secure boot keys. Do you wish to continue'? I wasn't sure but I thought that meant if I had installed a Linux key (Microsoft has not issued any to Linux yet but they have asked for them) or some other special secure boot key that those would be wiped out if I went through with "load optimized defaults" but I don't have any special secure boot keys so I said yes to continue loading optimized defaults.

I am still stuck in Load Legacy OPROM boot mode. Maybe a full shutdown and then cold boot will get things unstuck and back to secure boot?

actions · 2012-Nov-28 2:21 am ·

Mele20

Mele20 to Link Logger

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 2:38 am

to Link Logger

On a desktop power management in Win 8 is CRAP. Much worse than in Win 7 or Vista and FAR FAR worse than in XP which is how it should be. This is a desktop...not a laptop, not a phone, not a tablet. It is a desktop and nothing should have been changed from XP where it is simple and quick to set up Power Management. Each OS since XP has had more and more convoluted, more and more time taking setup for what should be very simple...power always on, never shut down disks, system hibernates never (that is handled by Power Chute software not Windows), turn off monitor after X number of minutes.

I can swipe and swipe and swipe and NEVER get that insultingly named (I am not three years old) Charm bracelet crap. When I don't want that Charm bracelet it constantly pops up (along with a gigantic clock indicating Microsoft thinks I am blind...but if I want it so I can shut down...I can't get it to pop up. After much frustration, I finally get it and then I have to jump through a bunch of hoops just to shut down. That's nuts. Any extra mouse or keyboard movements mean extra risk for various problems with my hands, thumbs, wrists, etc. I don't want those risks. I already have chronic thumb/grip problem from computer use and don't want to keep losing ability to use my right hand for a week while things heal.

Why is there this desperate need for GUI uniformity across these devices? It will kill the desktop. I have no cell phone, tablet, or laptop and have zero interest in or need of any of those. LEAVE MY DESKTOP ALONE is what I say to Microsoft and stop trying to kill Linux (and XP) dual boot with this horrible secure boot crap (that has already been compromised security wise).

actions · 2012-Nov-28 2:38 am ·

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus to Link Logger

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 3:09 am

to Link Logger

The battery life of laptops doesn't allow you to keep them on 24/7 unless you keep them plugged in like a desktop all the time, and you assume there will be no complications when they automatically hibernate, otherwise attempt to shutdown when the battery is low. It's so easy to just turn it off, and let it charge when you're not going to use it for a long time. Also when transporting it to make sure the hhd heads are parked.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 3:09 am ·

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to Mele20

MVM

2012-Nov-28 3:11 am

to Mele20

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Typically I accept or at least haven't felt a need to change my default power settings, and again how often do users change this, so why make it a front line usability feature (ie at the cost of what)?

One important feature that is needed for modern OS's anymore is a good search system for when people are trying to use infrequent features like power settings is search, Windows 8 does pretty good with that, just search 'power' select 'system' and there is a pretty good menu for taking you pretty much exactly where you want to go.

Blake

actions · 2012-Nov-28 3:11 am ·

OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO to Mele20

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 3:22 am

to Mele20

Mele20

, I think you should open a new thread, specifically dedicated to the discussion about how to turn off secure boot in Windows 8 installation. It's actually an interesting subject, that requires detailed and separated discussion. It's not closely related to the current subject of this thread though... So, please open the new thread and put into it what you've mentioned in your posts here.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 3:22 am ·

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to BlitzenZeus

MVM

2012-Nov-28 3:34 am

to BlitzenZeus

Three words, solid state drives.

Actually I have one SSD and one spinny drive in my laptop, so I can't entirely count on those three words either, but that is where the world is going combined with the all magical cloud. Now my laptop is running Windows 7 (and to honest I don't see that changing anytime soon as Windows 7 is working nicely for me, but I suspect my next laptop will run Windows 8 as that is what is installed when you buy them, but I can always install 7 if I so wish) and the existing power management of the system has been working well enough for me to leave it in default. What I find telling anymore is even my external monitors have their own power management (Samsung SA850's as I felt 30" monitors were just too big).

When I do take my laptop I either put it to sleep, hibernate or shutdown as part of my disconnect and pack up process depending on where I'm going. My surface just gets chucked in the bag as is.

Blake

actions · 2012-Nov-28 3:34 am ·

OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO to Link Logger

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 3:54 am

to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Typically I accept or at least haven't felt a need to change my default power settings, and again how often do users change this, so why make it a front line usability feature (ie at the cost of what)?

Power settings should be accessed easily via right click on desktop and choosing Properties, where you should be able to change wait time to turn off screen and other settings, related to power management. I'm not proposing something new here. It was done this simple way in XP...

I don't accept default settings as you do, and I need to change those settings accordingly to my current usage of computer. For example, usually I need to turn screen off after a short period of time (5 min). But when I read or edit long texts (and/or I have to keep it on the screen, while doing other tasks on my desk), I prefer to set that timeout to a longer time span. So, I found that ability to change the timeout quite handy... As some may say - we all different and we use computers differently. What is good for you (default settings) is not so good for me...

I guess you'd agree, that it was logical to get to screen saver settings by getting to Properties dialog box right from the screen. Requiring a search engine to get to those settings is completely illogical and diminishes usability of Windows OS.

One more example - shutting down computer. From my experience working with many computers I know that sometimes I have to be able to safely turn off computer without even looking at its screen. With XP it was easy to do: Win + Up + Enter (+ R) + Enter. That's it. I hope that the newest version of Windows OS offer the same ability. Otherwise its usability is diminishing again...

What is the purpose or removing and / or hiding useful features from desktop OS, that we are experiencing in the latest versions of Windows OS since WXP?

actions · 2012-Nov-28 3:54 am ·

Mele20
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Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Link Logger

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2012-Nov-28 4:13 am

to Link Logger

Power Chute only handles hibernation and that is good because XP hibernation is poor. Power Chute can gracefully put the computer into hibernation when a power outage occurs and your APC UPS is nearing the end of its battery power. I only allow hibernation if the power goes off and there needs to be a managed shut down or hibernation performed because I am away from the system at that time).

There is a new version of Power Chute software that I don't think works on XP but does on Vista/Win 7 and Win 8. I like Power Chute software so much that I will likely purchase a new APC UPS so I can use the software (but not if I have to purchase a pure sine wave UPS as APC's units are very expensive...other brands are better priced).

actions · 2012-Nov-28 4:13 am ·

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to OZO

MVM

2012-Nov-28 4:26 am

to OZO

Some of the tricks available in previous versions of Windows still apply. Press Ctrl+Alt+Del, for instance, click the power button in the bottom right-hand corner and you'll be presented with the same 'Shut Down' and 'Restart' options.

And if you're on the desktop, press Alt+F4 and you'll be able to choose 'Shut Down', 'Restart', 'Sign Out' or 'Switch User' options. And of course you can create your own keyboard short cuts if you wish.

As far as the power options from the screen, debatable as I don't consider the screen saver to be a 'power' option, but even in Windows 7 there is a link to Change Power Settings from the screen saver settings as is there for Windows 8 in the desktop mode so your still covered.

Blake

actions · 2012-Nov-28 4:26 am ·

dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to Link Logger

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 7:55 am

to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Oh, god no - it's horrible. I buy the APC UPSes but never install their crapware; the bundled Windows support is much better.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 7:55 am ·

Glen T
join:2003-11-03
BC

1 recommendation

Glen T to Link Logger

Member

2012-Nov-28 11:16 am

to Link Logger

I watched that presentation from the head of the MS Win8 design team and was struck by the irony of it all. Doing more with less is the MS theme. He spends the first half his presentation talking about revolutionary vs. evoluationary change in other technological fields, while ignoring the fact that Win8 on Surface is actually an evolutionary change itself, because the Apple iPad already got there first.

According to that presentation, what MS envisions is that we will all be carrying around tablet PCs, with maybe a docking station, keyboard and larger monitor for work purposes. Our work computers will be our personal computers too, with all of our music and movies and photos. This alone sounds like a corporate IT nightmare.

So, assuming the above to be true, the company I work for is an ISV and we produce chemical engineering software with a CAD front end. So MS's vision of our future is that we will rewrite 1M+ lines of code into an HTML5 app (which he actually describes as "anyone who can make a website can make an application") that will run on a 10" single window screen, with no pointing device other than our fingers, and presumably bought from the MS App Store so that MS can take a share of our profits. Seriously??

When we started working on our software in the mid-80's the typical monitor was EGA resolution. We spent $4000 on a VGA monitor and video card to get the extra resolution - that's 640 x 480 for you youngsters. Over the years we gradually saw video capabilities expand and prices drop, until it became possible, for very little money, to have two 1920 x 1200 resolution monitors hooked up to an average PC. The Holy Grail!

And now, through a convergence of entertainment industry influence, we are seeing these achievements slip away. Monitors are now being compressed into HD formats. Video output of PCs is also going this way with many PCs only offering HDMI output. And now, add Windows 8 and their "revolutionary, do more with less" philosophy.

On the day when I can buy an integrated desktop display that looks like the one above for less than $1000, then this whole concept might start to make sense. But not today.

This is design to the lowest common denominator, sacrificing usability and utility en route. The entertainment industry is the tail wagging the dog. In an era of high customization of everthing, it is simply absurd to produce a one-size-fits-all solution.

But maybe MS will get their revolutionary change, but not quite as they envision it. It's time for a bunch of MS people to quit and start their own company, which will be aimed squarely at servicing the abandoned corporate sector. The vacuum must be filled.

Viva la revolution!!

actions · 2012-Nov-28 11:16 am ·

RazzyW8
@rr.com

RazzyW8 to howardfine

Anon

2012-Nov-28 11:28 am

to howardfine

said by howardfine:

What I was talking about was the very first month Windows 7 was out, not current prices, compared to the very first month of Win 8 at current prices. The price for Windows 7 back then was $120 durings its first month.

Like he said, there were $50 upgrade promotion at the time. Also Microsoft was giving away Windows 7 licenses for FREE to PC buyers while they were selling it for $15 for Windows 8 promotional upgrade.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 11:28 am ·

your moderator at work

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus to Glen T

Premium Member

2012-Nov-28 1:54 pm

to Glen T

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

So Microsoft wants toss business clients under the bus, and tell them to adapt to consumer devices... Apparently they should be doing all their work over vpn, and remote desktop to make sure to keep information off these insecure devices. Nothing like trade secrets, and private information getting lost for some laptop thief to find.

actions · 2012-Nov-28 1:54 pm ·

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to dave

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 6:18 am

to dave

said by dave:

said by Link Logger:

Sounds like the problem is with Power Chute's developers as I don't use it, nor likely do the majority of windows users, hence Power Chute's problem to make their software work and maintain it.

Oh, god no - it's horrible. I buy the APC UPSes but never install their crapware; the bundled Windows support is much better.

It works beautifully on XP Pro. How it works on Vista/Win7 I don't know. Windows support is HORRIBLE on XP. Please don't try to defend it on XP.

actions · 2012-Nov-29 6:18 am ·

dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 7:39 am

Nah, Powerchute has been horrible forever. Ugly UI, not well-integrated, calls too much attention to itself.

actions · 2012-Nov-29 7:39 am ·

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 8:58 am

It's a very NICE GUI! Why do you think it is ugly? (Pay no attention to what it says the battery run time is...the current battery is 5 years old ...the unit is about 10 years old and recalibrating doesn't really do it anymore. It used to correctly state the run time. The current incorrectness is not because of the software. The unit is just very old. But I am not replacing it until I know what I will require with a new computer. Stepped sine wave is affordable and has the type physical unit that I need for the space I have available. If I have to go to a huge, expensive pure sine wave I will be very unhappy and need to look at other brands).

As for it not being well-integrated, it has been a life saver. When I don't use it, my computer will NOT go into a WINDOWS managed hibernation state when the power goes off and I am asleep or away from my home.

Calling too much attention to itself? It NEVER makes itself known except by having a tray icon that is convenient for me.

I have the Personal Edition and it is an older edition but, as I said, the new edition (and I do fault APC for waiting so long to issue a new Personal Edition) I don't think will work on XP. Maybe I won't like the new edition when I install it on the new computer (assuming I keep the new computer) but that remains to be seen.

Maybe you are referring to a Professional edition?

actions · 2012-Nov-29 8:58 am ·

kickass69
join:2002-06-03
Lake Hopatcong, NJ

kickass69

Member

2012-Nov-29 11:54 am

I've tried the newest version of PowerChute Personal Edition...which is V3.0.2 for Windows 8, 7, Vista, XP and Home Server. Keep in mind the newest version needs .NET framework 2.0 SP2 which is unfortunate. I don't like how there's an energy cost section and service added to this new version. There's no way to turn it off without a message saying 'hey, it's not working' essentially. I would read the install/release notes for known issues with this version as well.

I went back to version 2.2, which is similiar to your screenshot with 'Run Self Test' option below Current Status.

actions · 2012-Nov-29 11:54 am ·

markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA

1 recommendation

markofmayhem to Mele20

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 12:20 pm

to Mele20

said by Mele20:

You are confusing Secure Boot and UEFI. You do not want to switch to "legacy boot", just change "Secure Boot" from "Auto" to "No". NTLDR is what a BIOS/MBR boot requires, you don't have one. You are UEFI/GPT which launches a file that ends with .efi, not .sys, in a different partition than were NTLDR would be. Reset your "boot mode" to UEFI instead of legacy and your boot order to the UEFI Windows bootloader. Secure Boot is another toggle, not the one you mucked with, and Windows 8 will boot with or without it on.. Win 8 the software doesn't care, only the Win 8 STICKER cares.

actions · 2012-Nov-29 12:20 pm ·

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 9:58 pm

Can't do that. It is "secure boot enabled" or "secure boot disabled" which enables Legacy boot. I didn't enable Legacy boot. I turned off Secure Boot and that action enabled Legacy Boot. Secure boot state is also disabled.

I have changed it back to UEFI but it makes no difference. It remains on Legacy Boot which I did not enable. All I did was disable "secure boot" under Secure Boot Status.

I was told in Dell forums that if I want to dual boot Linux or XP Pro with Win 8 that I have to turn off UEFI and which sets it to Legacy boot and reinstall Windows 8 in Legacy mode. Is that incorrect information? These were Dell employees and long time Dell forum posters who said this. They may be wrong...there is tremendous confusion among long time Dell users and Dell employees in the forum regarding dual boot in Windows 8 and even regarding Reinstallation of Windows 8 because of Microosoft's restrictions on Dell, for the first time, in Windows 8 regarding the COA key.

If I had a Windows 8 Reinstallation disk (not the USB key I was just sent) and installed in legacy mode how would I authenticate? There is no COA sticker on the computer. Dell was forced to put an individualized key in the BIOS instead of using their generic key but that is for Win 8 in UEFI mode. What happens if you reinstall in Legacy mode?

actions · 2012-Nov-29 9:58 pm ·

TD Nickell
Premium Member
join:2010-07-27
Federal Way, WA

1 edit

TD Nickell to howardfine

Premium Member

2012-Nov-29 10:12 pm

to howardfine

wrong thread.

actions · 2012-Nov-29 10:12 pm ·

markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA

markofmayhem to Mele20

Premium Member

2012-Nov-30 1:32 pm

to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Can't do that. It is "secure boot enabled" or "secure boot disabled" which enables Legacy boot.

Dell XPS 8500 Windows 8 preinstalled:
»img90.imageshack.us/img9 ··· 0051.jpg

Secure boot off, UEFI on, UEFI:Windows Boot Manager primary boot.

As for COA/Key discussion... 'Legacy mode' has nothing to do with licensing, at all, it is an emulation by UEFI to mimic BIOS/MBR behavior for compatibility.

actions · 2012-Nov-30 1:32 pm ·

dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

2012-Nov-30 1:48 pm

Clearly you have a future career opportunity in Dell's Technical Support team!

actions · 2012-Nov-30 1:48 pm ·

markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA

markofmayhem

Premium Member

2012-Nov-30 1:51 pm

said by dave:

Clearly you have a future career opportunity in Dell's Technical Support team!

I'll do everything I can not to return to "support" ever again, as long as I live... I will do what it takes to not return there! I would have been better off selling my body and/or parts there-in to pay my way through college.

actions · 2012-Nov-30 1:51 pm ·

your moderator at work

Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo to howardfine

Member

2012-Nov-30 4:38 pm

to howardfine

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

Have you folks seen this?

»news.softpedia.com/news/ ··· 94.shtml

actions · 2012-Nov-30 4:38 pm ·

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