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plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

1 recommendation

plencnerb to howardfine

Premium Member

to howardfine

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

said by howardfine:

said by La Luna:

...people who love Windows 8, have taken the time to figure it out and have it working the way they want it to. It's not impossible, but it DOES take learning/experimenting.

That's what the article and study is about. The time and ability to figure it out.

I agree with the above. While I have not used it fully as my OS at home yet (still waiting for McAfee to release Patch 3 for VSE 8.8), I do plan to switch to it once Patch 3 comes out.

Sure, things may be different, and not in the same place it was in Windows 7 (or previous versions). But, instead of turning it on and yelling "THIS SUCKS, Microsoft is so dumb", if these people took the TIME to sit down with an open mind and embraced the new OS, they would be a lot happier.

I will admit I was one of those "WTF is this Metro thing" when I first saw it. I will also admit that I when I first saw Windows 7 (went from XP to 7, as I skipped Vista), I did the same thing. I was sitting there yelling at my monitor, as everything was moved and different. I was actually getting really frustrated with my computer.

But you know what? After the initial shock of "Where the Heck did they move X to" was over, I took the time to figure it out. I read the online posts of the new changes in Windows 7, where things were at...I talked to friends and co-workers, I read and posted on this forum. And you know what? I love Windows 7. I think it is one of the best (and most stable) OS's that Microsoft has released to date. Once I do switch to Windows 8, I will do the same thing. Research, learn, figure out, embrace, and enjoy Windows 8.

--Brian

howardfine
join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

howardfine

Member

Then you missed the part about using it and figuring it out. I think you are talking about dealing with it and getting used to it rather than using something that makes sense in the first place.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo

Member

Exactly... Using something that makes sense in the first place is progress... Dealing with and getting used to something is often a step backwards.....
Expand your moderator at work

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to Riamen

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to Riamen

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

It won't be a "failure" on the desktop because the desktop is eventually going away. The GUI you see on WindowsPhone and XBox is the future. That doesn't mean there won't be any traditional Windows apps on desktops, they'll just all launch from the modern UI.
digitalfutur

digitalfutur to dellsweig

Premium Member

to dellsweig
A few returns do not a trend make, especially when the price premium for Apple is 30-50% more than Windows. It's a lot of extra money to pay for being unable or unwilling to spend 15 minutes learning a few mouse clicks or keyboard shortcuts on Windows 8.

Given Apple's 7% global market share for desktops, most people aren't going to flock to OS X and its variants.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo to digitalfutur

Member

to digitalfutur
Ok, let's forget desktops for the moment... What about laptops with no touch interface? Are those going away soon too?

Everything is going away eventually... no exceptions. But isn't it a mistake to produce a product that acts like the desktop is already gone when it's not?

MS could/should have worked thru this for a while, and come up with a much better and smoother transition for us... That would have been appreciated.
HappyFrappy
join:2000-10-04
North

HappyFrappy to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:

You should let your dad know that a quick press of the power button will also shut down the computer, but in an orderly fashion. Either that, or wait until this one fries so he can get himself a Mac. That's what people use when they aren't technically too knowledgeable. That's why I got my parents an iPad. Simple to use and ignorance of technology poses no problem.

Interesting thing is on his dual-booting Thinkpad T420 the Lenovo "power manager" gives him three choices with a power button press like Windows XP/Vista/7. Dell on the other hand dumps the PC into sleep... I guess Dell/Microsoft prefers desktop computers to run 24/7 eh?

My mum hops between Mac/Windows like myself, dad on the other hand is a Windows/Blackberry user... you know BB Desktop is non-existant on OS X, its a POS 3rd party "sync" app and Outlook on the Mac is a joke like the former Entourage.

The "smart" move for Microsoft should have been discontinue "Windows for Desktop" and just market Windows 8 for Touch Screen & Tablet PCs... problem solved, then scrap 32-bit Windows and migrate to ARM w/x64 instruction set for Windows 9
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

I run all my machines 24/7. They go into sleep/hibernate at predesignated intervals. But I don't ever shut them down.

Wow, that's like turning the universe inside out.

Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY

1 recommendation

Xioden to Kerodo

Premium Member

to Kerodo
said by Kerodo:

Exactly... Using something that makes sense in the first place is progress... Dealing with and getting used to something is often a step backwards.....

Exactly.

Going from XP to Vista; Searchable start menu? Genius plain and simple. It's a simple change on the surface but is a massive usability improvement.

Vista to 7: Jumplists, open specific recently used documents, and extra functions attached to a programs shortcut. Again, massive usability increase.

For Windows 8: Metro UI that replaces the start menu but is completely isolated from the desktop interface... meh.

Now had they made the Metro/Modern UI act as a sort of interactive wallpaper and was integrated into the desktop (while retaining the function, they might have had something that provided a nice usability increase.
zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC

zod5000 to howardfine

Member

to howardfine
I don't really buy the argument that people should get used to change. Not all change is good. How do you get an unbiased opinion on whether or not the new interface is better or worse than the old one. Some people seem unwilling to learn, others argue that because its new its automatically better.

I honestly don't think its better. I learned it and tried it out, but it seems to take more clicks and effort to do things than I did on win7. I didn't like dealing with two interfaces.

I think the part that baffles me is why Microsoft didn't leave the option in (from RC's) to disable Metro. They could of appeased both crowds. The people who like Metro better and the people that like classic desktop better. Instead they polarized the users, and win 8 won't be a winner if half the population can't stand it.

I predict another classic desktop type OS in the future. Win8 seems to have even more negative press than Vista had.

Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium Member
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I have never used multiple windows in 14 years. I HATE that...too distracting so I guess I like that Win 8 doesn't have them. I have no idea how you would even go about having multiple windows open at the same time. I use a 19" LCD at 5:4 ratio. It is perfect but how would I do multiple windows on it? That is for movie watching monitors ...

We're all different, and that's OK. With pre-Win8 OSs, you can use just a single window, if that's all you want. But with Win8, you've got the single-window limit issue. I use at least 3 simultaneous windows on-screen at least several times every single day (Excel, Word, and a browser - sometimes other apps combinations) to accomplish meaningful spreadsheet and document creation that requires manipulation and real-time cross-referral of information in all windows continually. This is why I question whether some of Win8's "refinements" make sense on a computer (a device intended to compute), rather than on an Internet or social-media appliance. And I suspect that many businesses over time will conclude the same thing... in which case, it will be interesting to see the impact on Microsoft's long-time business model.

Tomek
Premium Member
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY

Tomek to howardfine

Premium Member

to howardfine
Excellent read.
I think it is a big step forward for APPLE.
Consistent experience. Plus if you think about it. MacOS resembles closer older windows GUI than this new Metro crap.

I often have multiple windows open. At work I have dual monitor setup with more windows open than taskbar can show.

Remember when win7 brought those new features to taskbar? You could always change that.
Start Menu in XP? you could revert back. M$ gave people change to migrate on their own and learn the new features and adapted to user feedback.

At this point I am looking only for new systems that have win7 in it.
My fellow IT friends are still thinking how can this possibly work in corporate.

urbanriot
Premium Member
join:2004-10-18
Canada

urbanriot to howardfine

Premium Member

to howardfine
On Time Tech - "Windows 8: The Sevent Roads Not Taken" - »techland.time.com/2012/1 ··· t-taken/

Also written by Paul Thurrott on Friday - "Windows 8 Sales Well Below Projections, Plenty of Blame to Go Around" - »winsupersite.com/windows ··· o-around

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

1 recommendation

Cho Baka to howardfine

MVM

to howardfine
Awful.

Worse than Edsel or Aztek.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to HappyFrappy

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to HappyFrappy
Did he get Win 8 Pro? If so, advise him to exercise his Microsoft downgrade rights to Win 7 Pro. Dell must honor that.
Mele20

1 recommendation

Mele20 to Blackbird

Premium Member

to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

I use at least 3 simultaneous windows on-screen at least several times every single day (Excel, Word, and a browser - sometimes other apps combinations) to accomplish meaningful spreadsheet and document creation that requires manipulation and real-time cross-referral of information in all windows continually. This is why I question whether some of Win8's "refinements" make sense on a computer (a device intended to compute), rather than on an Internet or social-media appliance. And I suspect that many businesses over time will conclude the same thing... in which case, it will be interesting to see the impact on Microsoft's long-time business model.

Ok. I can understand why you need multiple windows open at the same time. So, I can see why this one window only Win 8 would be a set back.

I think business/enterprise will not adopt Win 8. I also find it hard to believe that the desktop computer is basically dead. I can't see business/enterprise users moving to laptop/tablet only or even desktops with touch screen. Most workers are not interested in incurring the physical problems that will happen if they get touch screens with desktops. I think the desktop is dying for home use and only gamers and power users want it and, unfortunately, we are a small percentage of computer users. Dell was, a few days ago, still selling only Win 7 on their Small/Medium business site (that may have changed now). But I want more than a business computer...I want that but also multimedia and that pushes me to, ironically, buying as a registered Dell Small/Medium business customer pushed into Employer/employee MMP program which has nice perks but forces buying from the Consumer side which is all Win 8 (a big mistake on dell's part I think). Why the black and white division between a computer for business and one for home? Why not one computer for both? That worked up to Win 8.

hortnut
Huh?
join:2005-09-25
PDX Metro

hortnut to howardfine

Member

to howardfine
Glad you posted the article on the study, think I read it in another source yesterday.

I bought 2 - W7 Pro machines, last August and will take advantage of the $14.99 - W8 offer for machines bought from 6/2 to Jan 31, 2013. »www.windowsupgradeoffer. ··· om/en-US Have nothing to install 8 on at this time, but $30.00 is a small amount to pay to just have a couple of copies. FAQ's says I can order a DVD for a few bucks more. »windowsupgradeoffer.com/ ··· Home/Faq

I did have the opportunity to play on some W8 Laptops at Costco and other stores last week. Personally was not impressed. Ended up getting stuck and ended up using Keyboard Shortcuts to get to where I wanted to be.

Saw no speed or other advantages over my current W7 Dell that I had bought at Costco [was using testing on almost same Model].

My $.02

Blogger
Jedi Poster
Premium Member
join:2012-10-18

1 recommendation

Blogger to howardfine

Premium Member

to howardfine
To the topic and not to any poster:

This topic reminds me of an old saying:

If one person calls you a jackass, ignore them. If a second person calls you a jackass, ignore them too. If a third person calls you a jackass, buy a saddle.

Sounds to me like it's time for Windows 8 to saddle up.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to hortnut

Premium Member

to hortnut
You realize the DVD is just upgrade media? It is not Windows 8 OS installation media. It is just upgrade media.

I was just told by a Dell Sm/Med business warranty employee that it is not possible to get a Reinstallation disk to clean install Win 8 on a Win 8 new machine because it is not possible to do a clean install from DVD media due to Microsoft changes with Windows 8. There is a way (I can't imagine what) to clean install Win 8 on a new Win 8 machine but not from DVD media. I have to call another department in Dell that keeps CST business hours to find out how to do it. So, I have to call tomorrow. This explains why the person who writes the excellent Wikis in the Dell Microsoft forum for step by step immediate clean install of the OS on a new Dell machine cannot write one for Windows 8 because you can't do it from DVD media. Dell cannot supply a Reinstallation DVD disk for Windows 8 at all due to Microsoft changes and restrictions.

I'll find out more tomorrow, but it just sounds like to me another reason to avoid Win 8. Dell will supply, free of charge and free shipping, Reinstallation Media for Win 7, XP, etc but cannot for Win 8.

HFB1217
The Wizard Premium ExMod 2000-01

join:2000-06-26
Camelot SwFL

HFB1217 to howardfine

to howardfine
This implementation sort of reminds me of the old Windows shell and DOS. They have taken Windows 7 crippled it within a limiting shell amid at touch screens and forsaken the PC users.

This would be fine if the GUI was of a polished finish like Win7 with the option to use a touch screen shell or a standard Windows GUI.

It is flat and BLAND it reminds me of Windows 3.x

I watch my system load up monitoring with Core Temp and see a tremendous amount Of CPU usage and higher Core Temps compared to what it was with WIN7.

I am all for progress and new things but the newer versions should be an improvement or adding to the total user market not just one niche.

Don't get me wrong there are some things about WIN8 that are good but I wish they had left an easy migration option to revert to WIN7.

hortnut
Huh?
join:2005-09-25
PDX Metro

hortnut to Mele20

Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

You realize the DVD is just upgrade media? It is not Windows 8 OS installation media. It is just upgrade media.
{snip}
Dell cannot supply a Reinstallation DVD disk for Windows 8 at all due to Microsoft changes and restrictions.

I'll find out more tomorrow, but it just sounds like to me another reason to avoid Win 8. Dell will supply, free of charge and free shipping, Reinstallation Media for Win 7, XP, etc but cannot for Win 8.

Did you even check out the links and FAQ I provided??

Sheesh! You order W8 Pro directly from Microsoft and you pay Microsoft. The DVD comes directly from Microsoft.

Dell is not involved in anyway in this offer.

And I have my hard copies of W7 Pro from Dell. I also have MS Office Home and Business hard copies from Microsoft that came preinstalled with the Costco machine.

As to a clean install, it may be possible from the DVD per Microsoft's FAQ's:

Can I use a Windows 8 upgrade SKU to upgrade to Windows 8 from my existing Windows OS?
Yes. Windows 8 upgrade SKUs are designed for use on a computer that is already licensed for an earlier version of Windows (Windows XP SP3 or higher). Depending on the Windows version you are upgrading from, a “clean install” of Windows 8 may be required.

Can I create my own installation media for Windows 8?
You can create your own installation media on a USB or DVD. During the installation process you are presented with an option to: “Install now, Install by creating media, or Install later from your desktop”. When you select “Install by creating media”, you will be presented with the options to create USB or DVD installation media.

And as you mention, there are many ways around things and tweaks to be found. Microsoft's own FAQ's indicate as such, if I am reading and interpreting correctly.

Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

Yes, I have read those links many times in the past. I read that as saying you are getting an UPGRADE disk not a full Win 8 disk. I mentioned Dell because they just told me that, not just for them, but all OEMs cannot supply FULL Win 8 reinstallation disks as MS forbids it even when you purchase a new machine with Win 8. That just screams for savvy folks to stay away from any form of Windows 8, be it half assed upgrade from current OS through the Microsoft offer, or by purchasing a new Win 8 machine.
sludgehound
join:2007-03-12
New York, NY

sludgehound to howardfine

Member

to howardfine
Market is speaking....
»www.computerworld.com/s/ ··· 12-11-19

Windows 8 PC orders weak, says analyst

Sales at Asian firms that assemble PCs for HP, Dell and others show lower expectations for Windows 8 'pop'.

hortnut
Huh?
join:2005-09-25
PDX Metro

hortnut to Mele20

Member

to Mele20
Certainly have to agree that all things W8 seems to be half assed. Just the confusion over RT on the Surface vs W8 on a Laptop or Box, shows how screwed up things are.

BillRoland
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL

BillRoland to howardfine

Premium Member

to howardfine
While I've used Windows 8 on non-touch screen desktop and laptops (its no secret that I think its terrible for such devices), I got a chance to use "Windows RT" on a tablet. This, I thought, is where its all going to come together and make sense; the quintessential touch device, a touch driven interface, its all going to mesh.

Sadly, it didn't click for me on the tablet, either. I left feeling that Microsoft, in an attempt to make a jack of all trades product, really didn't master any of them.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

Surface was prominent in Hawaii 5'0 TV show tonight. It looked intriguing, and fun, when Kono opened a Surface tablet, flipped back the lid to prop it on the table and swiped metro off the screen quickly and had what she needed right there on the next screen...of course, that's a TV show but I think it might work well on a tablet, ultra book, phone...just not on a desktop...but maybe it doesn't work well on even a tablet as you have experienced.

Kramer
Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA

Kramer to howardfine

Mod

to howardfine
I'm really confused by this article. These are power users Nielsen has supposedly collected. How hard is it to ignore Metro for a power user and have essentially the same interface as Windows, 7 sans Aero? One would expect a 12 year old mildly interested kid to be able to figure that one out in a couple of minutes. My beef with WIN8 is with what Nielsen complains about, but with non-power users getting the OS on a new machine. Also, I am fairly sure there will be few corporate IT departments willing to roll this out as well, not because of stability but because of usability.

For someone like Nielsen to reject upgrading to WIN8, is rather curious. It is a significant upgrade from Windows 7 and to reject the upgrade because of Metro is like refusing to buy a house you otherwise love were it not for the color. Metro is 99.9% totally ignorable for someone way less skilled than a power user. I'd almost guarantee you Microsoft will let you turn it completely off in less then 90 days too. Where I agree with Nielsen is the fact that for laptops and desktops, Metro is a huge mistake that Microsoft will repair.
Expand your moderator at work
Anon00
Premium Member
join:2001-09-25
USA

Anon00 to Kramer

Premium Member

to Kramer

Re: Win8 - Disappointing usability

said by Kramer:

Where I agree with Nielsen is the fact that for laptops and desktops, Metro is a huge mistake that Microsoft will repair.

Uh, I still don't get why "non-touch" people get all hung up on it. I guess I just used Windows 7 differently, or just a quick study.

In 7, my necessary programs get pinned to task bar, the rest is searched when I need it... I do the same in Windows 8

Speaking of which, if I need to find something, WinKey (rarely used Mouse->Start Button, but in Windows 8, mouse to corner...) and start typing... same in Windows 8, though granted, it is fullscreen.

Now, yes, Shut Down is different, they "hid" it behind "Settings" (oh and behind WinKey+I, for you "power" desktop users). I suppose being on a laptop I really never needed the need for GUI Shutdown. I tend to sleep, but in those rare occurrences I do need to reboot/shutdown my laptop I never felt like it was a huge deal.

Admittedly, I am using a convertible tablet (Thinkpad X220 Tablet), but I hardly ever use the touch interface. I can count the number of times on one hand that I've been in tablet mode this year. I love my Trackpoint that much

If anything, Metro (erm Modern) and its apps aren't compelling because there's not much to do in it... yet... I spend most of my time in Desktop.

Now this isn't to say Windows 8 can't use GUI (Modern) improvements. I just don't miss my Start Button that much.

PS Uh... Multimonitor support is a little weird... though I haven't spent much time with Multiple Monitors (like 5 minutes) so can't really comment on that vs Windows 7 (Work desktop is multimon, still on 7)