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LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

Not at that price!

I have Canopy 5.7 service from my upstream provider both for my home and at work for my hotspot. At home I have newer SM with a P10 board that can do 2X/2X so I get 10 down/3 up.

At work my SM is a P8 and only does 1X/1X so 5 down/1.5 up. I inquired with my provider about getting 2X and I think the proposal they came back to me is unreasonable.

They want $650 up front and want to double my monthly fee. I turned them down and am seriously considering looking elsewhere for more bandwidth.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
Ask them if you can provide your own equipment.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to LLigetfa
Are you a wisp or an end user ?.

I sell another small wisp 45/20 for $800/mo.

If you feel they are being unreasonable or want something serious, Call your local cable company or ILEC and get an optical Ethernet service.

More bandwidth will always just be a phone call away.

I built my whole company around fiber availability and maximizing distribution throughout my network.

Also get multiple quotes/estimates from some wholesalers as well. Be very careful about company's that offer free installations and read the fine print.

Edit:fixed typo

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to LLigetfa
Now that I re-read the first post, the question I would ask is, what are you currently paying for your connection?

Hahausuck
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:2
reply to LLigetfa
They know that 2x mode is more efficient right? Even if you didn't buy more bandwidth you'd help them out...... Provided their end is capable and they have their SM base managed right.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:

Are you a wisp or an end user ?

Both, kind of... I run a not-for-profit hotspot in an industrial complex.

said by OHSrob:

Call your local cable company or ILEC and get an optical Ethernet service.

More bandwidth will always just be a phone call away.

You're not from around here are you? It's not like in Southern Ontario.

Answer me this way... would you double your monthly fee to take a sub from a 5 meg tier to a 10 meg tier?
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to Hahausuck
said by Hahausuck:

They know that 2x mode is more efficient right?

Sometimes I wonder... you'd think it would be obvious eh? I tried to explain to my account rep that my hotspot uses less bandwidth than most residential subs and that increasing my bandwidth would not increase the amount of gigs used.

The AP is 2X capable and has some 2X SMs on it already. Seemed like a no-brainer to me but they want to gouge me.

I might just cancel their service and take down my hotspot, reducing my cost. I can always move my clients onto our internal Cisco LWAPs with a guest portal that tunnels out to the internet through our corporate WAN. I was looking for an excuse to add more Cisco LWAPs anyway.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to LLigetfa
said by LLigetfa:

Answer me this way... would you double your monthly fee to take a sub from a 5 meg tier to a 10 meg tier?

I double my price for double the speed. But my bandwidth is not cheap and my speed tiers top out at 1.5 megs right now. Netflix consumes a large percentage of my peak traffic. If a customer has 1.5 meg service from me now, they would probably use their connection just as much at 3 megs, however Netflix would be streaming at that full 3 megs and costing me much more. Now once you get above a certain point, my guess would be above 5 megs or so, then it is probably true that consumption probably doesn't increase nearly as much unless you happen to get a multi-netflix family. Once I can get my requirements high enough to bring in a large amount of bandwidth, my price per meg will be much lower, and doubling the speed wouldn't be double the cost to provide it. So I guess I would say that it depends on the WISP and their situation.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to LLigetfa

More bandwidth will always just be a phone call away.

You're not from around here are you? It's not like in Southern Ontario.

I think he his actually somewhere in Ontario?. But yea I have to agree Ive been absolutely pulling my hair out over a new fibre for the last few months. Here along the North Erie shore I have a whopping 1 choice for an Incumbent who so far cant get anything physically better than a 100mb port to me, and dont even ask me what it costs!
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to jcremin
No NetFlix on my hotspot. These guys are not online for entertainment... strictly business. I doubt I hit anywhere near 5 gig a month.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to Inssomniak
said by Inssomniak:

I think he his actually somewhere in Ontario?

Ja, I think the O in OHS stands for Ontario:

»www.ontariohighspeed.ca/
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to Inssomniak
If you need more than 100meg it would probably be worth it to get a vlan from hydro one and backhaul to Toronto. We just hooked up a vlan via them in simcoe.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by twizlar:

If you need more than 100meg it would probably be worth it to get a vlan from hydro one and backhaul to Toronto. We just hooked up a vlan via them in simcoe.

Wow sounds like a great idea!. Who do I call? I dont think they have any fibre around me.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
www.hydroonetelecom.com/contact_us/index.html

They have significant fibre assets in norfolk county, availability usually depends on how close you are to a splice point. They are in 151 as well.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by twizlar:

www.hydroonetelecom.com/contact_us/index.html

They have significant fibre assets in norfolk county, availability usually depends on how close you are to a splice point. They are in 151 as well.

Looking at their map actually They have it running right down RR55 to the coal burner on the lake! That goes right past my main PoP.
Should give them a call indeed!

In fact if its in the facility, I could wirelessly backhaul it to my tower without even needing the fibre! I can see the roof of the power plant from my tower.

Although I imagine there are certain restrictions and security issues with mounting a backhaul onto a power generating station.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to LLigetfa
said by LLigetfa:

said by OHSrob:

Call your local cable company or ILEC and get an optical Ethernet service.

More bandwidth will always just be a phone call away.

You're not from around here are you? It's not like in Southern Ontario.

I thought you were a wisp and could just park a tower next to a fiber pop across from a central office that is in a good spot. Obviously your situation is unique. Bell has ADSL in many places and as long as its not on the old ATM network they have tons of capacity.

Once you get fiber in if the network your on can support it you can always call for more capacity. Bell brought in 12 strand for me I have one that is in use. 100 full duplex, I can make a phone call and have a gigabit at a higher cost. I have connectivity from bell to 151 front street where we use nexicom from there.

said by LLigetfa:

Answer me this way... would you double your monthly fee to take a sub from a 5 meg tier to a 10 meg tier?

Under normal situations no, but as your case is very unique I would seriously consider it if you could keep the data usage low enough (Preferably under 20GB/mo) and limited the stations on the hotspot to 4 or 5 megabit's with QOS. And if access point I was going to put you on was 5.8ghz and the SNR was high enough and the tower you were on was close to my main pop. (less then 3 backhauls to go through).

We do offer more speeds then listed on the site, We have a 6/2, 5/5 and 10/10 they are only available to business.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
I was with Bell but they could only offer ADSL at an affordable rate. I don't really need more download. What I need is more upload. With ADSL, the 512kb upload was pathetic. By comparison, the 1.5mb upload on Canopy 1X is much better but 3mb on 2X would be better still.

My customers are mostly tech reps that need the upload speed to send files and for VPN. Again, my hotspot is not for entertainment and it is not open.

The reason I put up my hotspot was to keep the traffic off of our WAN. Our present WAN link is a BGP of two 5m/512k ADSL circuits. Large uploads can choke that right quick. I recently got a quote for an E10 MPSL circuit to be installed, not for this hotspot but for our WAN link. The monthly on that would be $1900 and the install would be $10,000. Once that is in place, I won't need the hotspot any more.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:

I thought you were a wisp and could just park a tower next to a fiber pop across from a central office that is in a good spot. Obviously your situation is unique. Bell has ADSL in many places and as long as its not on the old ATM network they have tons of capacity.

We own a now vacant parcel of land adjacent to the Bell CO and I can throw a rock and hit it from just outside my office which is across the street from it. I had an aerial fibre going across the street before a truck snagged it and tore it down.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

Hahausuck
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:2
reply to LLigetfa
I agree.

Based on our conversations over the years, it sounds like they might need to be left behind.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to LLigetfa
I find the pricing to be rather acceptable. Not nice, no. But acceptable. It fits the current offering window as far as I can see.

The upfront charge is acceptable. Those modules ain't cheap. You're a commercial client. If I went to ask for something similar on any of my upstream points, that required a complete CPE swapping, you better believe I'd end up eating the cost.

The monthly cost MIGHT have some wiggle room? Here it's nearly standard when you're a business client, the costs pretty much do double. If you're in an area where bandwidth isn't easy to come by, the increase could actually be exponential.

So again, yeah it's acceptable. Not nice, not pretty, not friendly, but acceptable.

If you can do it cheaper with fiber to the CO etc or through some other contortion, then by all means do it. I just wouldn't hold it against the upstream provider as being jerks for what they're asking. Try doing the same with any other commercial bandwidth provider and the costs and fees come flying fast.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
said by voxframe:

The upfront charge is acceptable. Those modules ain't cheap. You're a commercial client.

That's just a way of saying I have deeper pockets and they are sticking their hand in it. It is no different than all the other residential installs off the same AP. In fact, I use less bandwidth than most any home. I don't have any SLA or CIR/CDR. As for the cost of the SM, they can have the old one back so it's just a trade.

said by voxframe:

Here it's nearly standard when you're a business client, the costs pretty much do double.

Back when I had a fractional T1 for my WAN link, it was nowhere near double the cost to double the bandwidth.

Everywhere else that I priced bandwidth, the more you bought, the cheaper it was per mb provided the infrastructure existed and didn't need to be built out. Back when I had a fractional T1, Bell wanted me to give them $100,000 to upgrade their CO so that I could get a 100 meg LAN extension to a sister mill. The fibre run at the other end was not included in the price.

To put this back into perspective, we are only talking about increasing from 5 meg to 10. Many ISPs would do that at no cost just to keep their subs if'n when their competition start offering higher speed packages. Locally a residential sub could get Shaw's 250/15 with 1TB data cap for less than what this 10/3 Canopy service is asking per month. Tell me how that is fair?
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to LLigetfa
You still haven't told us how much you are paying. 2x $100 is one thing, 2x $1k is completely different.

You are reselling the connection for all intents and purposes. It is moot that you are not doing it for a profit. Many ISP's wouldn't even allow you this luxury.

Plus, once you saturate the uplink of a Canopy AP the AP is done. Doubling the capacity of your uplink may be something they don't want to do and something they at least have to take into consideration.

They may not deploy non-advantage SM's anymore and one can only speculate if they have to purchase one new to accommodate your requirements.

Offer to provide your own equipment and see what happens.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
How much I pay is irrelevant. Prices vary greatly by region. I gave a local comparison with 250/15 being cheaper.

While there are a few WISPs on this forum that are concerned about how much their subs consume, most don't even blink if a sub uses 30 gig a month. So why is it that just because this is a business account that I should pay so much more despite using much less than most residential subs?

You guys are as thick as thieves to justify the hand in my pocket.

The WISP that is my provider is not a mom and pop operation. They have hundreds of POPs subsidized by millions in government handouts. Mind you, the tower that I am on is in town so that one wasn't subsidized. They have fewer than 20 subs on that AP so I very much doubt that an extra 1.5 meg upload would kill the AP.

Chances are, if my old P8 1X SM were to die a natural death, they would replace it with a newer 2X and I'd get the faster speed with no change in billing. The greedy CRM would not even know. It is just because I asked for the speed increase that the greedy CRM wants to stick his hand in my pocket.

Anyway... I think this thread is done. When I get my E10, I'll cancel this Canopy service, take down this hotspot, and move my guests over to my Cisco guest portal. The money I won't be paying the WISP will buy me more Cisco LWAPs.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
You are accusing them of price gouging and yet you won't specify what that is.

How can anyone render an opinion with incomplete data?

Depending on how the AP is set, yes an additional 1.5meg could absolutely saturate the AP.

Pull your head out of the sand.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
I pay one price for the subscription and then I pay additional per IP for two static IPs. They not only want to double the subscription price, they also want to double what I pay for the two static IPs.

How can that not be greed?

I've given this WISP a fair amount of business with commercial subscriptions to what was three of our hydro dams. We have since sold those dams but the new owner still uses them. In fact the new owner gave them additional business to their offices. I even lent them one of my IPs through the transition and tunneled them through my hotspot. I have two other subscriptions in addition to my hotspot. I should get a volume discount, not their hand in my pocket.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to LLigetfa
still dancing around the question

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to wirelessdog
said by wirelessdog:

You are reselling the connection for all intents and purposes.

No, I am not. The WISP knows what I use this for. I am not doing anything underhanded or outside of the agreed terms of service.

I am not going to say how much I pay for reasons already stated. Suffice to say, it is close to what I was paying Bell for BID service which BTW, did come with a SLA, a CIR/CDR, 5 static IPs, separate tech support, and reporting. I gave up a lot of that to get one extra meg of upload.

At the time, I thought I was going to get 10/3 like I do at my home. I've gotten one BS excuse after another and finally caught them in an outright lie which I confronted them on. I don't think I earned any brownie points with the CRM and he is now exacting his revenge.

The last laugh will be mine. I've said all I want.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
said by LLigetfa:

said by wirelessdog:

You are reselling the connection for all intents and purposes.

No, I am not. The WISP knows what I use this for. I am not doing anything underhanded or outside of the agreed terms of service.

You are still reselling the connection. Be it in the TOS or not, that's not the point. You are reselling the connection.

said by LLigetfa:

The last laugh will be mine. I've said all I want.

Then why bother posting in the first place? You haven't given any of the information you were asked, so why bother posting. You want help/advice or do you just want a shoulder to cry on. If you came here for the latter, you came to the wrong place.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
said by voxframe:

You are still reselling the connection. Be it in the TOS or not, that's not the point. You are reselling the connection.

Why are you so fixated on that? I am not taking business away from the WISP. My guests are laptop users in the bowels of the complex that cannot get any other service and have no alternative but to go back to their hotel to use internet there.

said by voxframe:

You haven't given any of the information you were asked, so why bother posting.

Why are you so fixated on what price I pay? I gave two relative examples. One being a business DSL that has a TOS allowing what I do albeit technically unable to deliver more speed. The other residential cable service is cheaper but at 250/15 is way way faster. Granted, the TOS would not allow me to use it but it is still a valid comparison since I use nowhere near the one TB cap their service allows.

As I said, you guys are as thick as thieves trying to justify your hand in my pocket. None of you have been able to give me a valid reason why I should pay so much more than a residential sub that consumes way more than me.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
said by LLigetfa:

You guys are as thick as thieves trying to justify your hand in my pocket. None of you have been able to give me a valid reason why I should pay so much more than a residential sub that consumes way more than me.

I guess that's your opinion. Sometimes the perspective is a bit different from the other side of the table. I think the requests for info about how much you were paying were valid requests. Without it, how are we supposed to know whether or not the prices sound reasonable?

I'm not trying to say that they are right or wrong for charging you what they do. Different businesses operate differently. Since bandwidth is one of the biggest costs for my business, if one of my customers wants twice the bandwidth, they pay twice the price since my costs will go up too. However many ISP's who have access to cheaper bandwidth than I and only charge incremental differences. Obviously if you only factor in the costs of thier wholesale bandwidth, the cost to provide double the bandwidth isn't twofold, but once you add in the limited capacity of each AP and the costs to upgrade infrastructure, it might be perfectly fair to charge twice as much.

I also don't have any caps, so I'm not going to give someone a special price just because they say they consume less bandwidth. They could easily double their consumption, and it isn't a risk I am willing to take. My prices are my prices. If I give one person a break, then word will spread and everyone else will want a discounted rate.

Regarding equipment, I personally don't charge for equipment. It is considered loaned. But I'm also not using $600+ CPE's. If I were, I would have to charge someone. Whether or not charging you the full price is fair or not isn't really up for me to decide. I don't believe you ever told us if you offered to buy your own equipment and provide it. I personally wouldn't support customer purchased equipment, as it can easily turn into more of a headache than it is worth, but some people do.

All I'm trying to say is that you are pretty much at the mercy of your provider and their policies. If they don't fit your needs, then you need to look for another provider. In many of our cases, there wasn't another provider which is what caused us to start our WISP's in the first place, and many of us are too small to dump hundreds of dollars into upgrades, and even if the customer is paying more for the faster connection, many times it is simply offsetting the increased costs of bandwidth and tower capacity.

I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but it is the explanation I would give any of my customers if they were in your situation.