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cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

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Re: [MoP] Mage thread of Awesomeness

Nope. I had world of Jobbie, Tuldarin, Darklogix, and me in there.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

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Whatever cigtyme is doing, works, he was top damage by quite a bit on all encounters on 2 LFR runs (6 bosses on HoF)

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

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Cig, the math is there that proves Invocation is the best talent if played properly. Incanter's Ward is definitely not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but using it on cooldown seriously gimps its effectiveness, esppecially on fights where incoming raid damage is not constant but still predictable. There are fights where I use each talent. Stone Guard and Garalon are examples of fights I use IW on, while I prefer to use Invocation on most others.

And I definitely didn't call you average specifically. I merely said that the average Mage using IW would notice a higher DPS gain from it because of its passive 6% damage increase. Meaning that if you don't even use the talent once, you'll get 6% more damage. But reapplying the shield the moment it's off cooldown is not only setting you up to miss out on having it there to burst at an opportune time because it's on cooldown, but drastically decreasing uptime of the 6% passive damage buff and 65% increase to mana regeneration.

I'm not a developer or even a Mage guru, but I can guarantee that you'll get more return from using Incanter's Ward if you use it only when it will be burst than keeping it on cooldown and basically negating the passive damage and mana regeneration bonuses.

DarkLogix
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Admittedly I could have upped mine on LFR#3/4 if I had AOE'ed more, and more multi-doting (that fight I should use LB instead of NT)

but that was LFR and I didn't use any pots or flasks or crystals.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium Member
join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

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Your damage was really high as well.
cymraeg
Thread Killer
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join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE

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keep in mind we are talking magi here, it isnt hard to put out good numbers with one, but i will stick with Invo, cig can stick with IW and we will both play and a good time will be had by all.

DarkLogix
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And now from LFR#2 I have a epic head now, currently I have a cata meta in it (blew lots of gold on cooking mats.

I have more than 3 stacks of 275 feasts now (IE the panda one not just the pot one) and almost 2 stacks of 300int food.

Lothario
join:2009-09-30
Ottawa, ON

Lothario

Member

Metal's cheap on mal'ganis
.....

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

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Sorry but I'm ally.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme to DarkLogix

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Yeah i had a bad weekend and was looking for a fight to pick, Sorry Cym and McBrain. My dammage has gone up signifigantly since the switch. I do as well change them. I just see too much of a gain on IW to switch.

Dark said EPIC HEAD.

Dark i will catch your meta when i get on.

114k was just so nice to see for a 10 minute fight.

DarkLogix
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DarkLogix

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Ya it was.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
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Marietta, GA

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Click for full size
Here is a chart displaying expected gains from Invocation and Rune of Power in different situations.

The DPS gain from the average Mage's assumed 80% uptime of Invocation is 8.89% (100% uptime is 11.1125%). To receive the same 8.89% damage increase from RoP, you'd have to have 86% uptime, and ~96% uptime for the ~11% increase. The third chart displays potential damage over a 20 second burst window assuming the full buff from RoP or Invocation are present vs a passive 8.89% damage increase.

Here is Lhivera's math on Incanter's Ward:

By way of comparison, a Mage with Incanter's Ward would be doing 82,744 DPS (97.35%) while running on the passive buff alone, but 101,478 DPS (119.39%) for the duration of her active buff. After using the active buff, there would be ten seconds of dealing only 78,060 DPS (91.84%) until the passive buff kicked back in.

Assuming you keep IW on cooldown AND the shield bursts instantly from enough damage every time to give you the 30% damage bonus, you'll receive an average bonus of 12.37% during a cycle of Incanter's Ward (26.25 seconds -- 1.25s GCD + 25s spell cool down). Since you'll be doing 130% damage for 57.14% of the cycle, unbuffed damage for 38.09% of the cycle, and 4.76% doing 0 damage because you're casting the shield itself. This is the theorectical maximum potential of Incanter's Ward with 100% uptime.

The math gets too sketchy for me to comfortably go any further than this with Incanter's Ward. Throwing in the 6% from the passive buff is turning out to be a bit much for the mind of this simpleton at the moment.

As you can see from the numbers the chart displays, as well as the math I did on Incanter's Ward, in a perfect scenario in a perfect world Incanter's Ward is, in fact, the best Mage L90 spell.

IW = 12.37% overall damage increase

Invocate = 11.1125% overall damage increase

RoP = 10.308% overall damage increase

But...as we all know, it's absolutely impossible to have that 57.14% uptime of the 30% damage buff from IW. Not only would it assume you refresh the spell instantly and have the shield burst for the required damage to give you the 30%, but this would have to happen instantly...every time. So, let's assume that you receive the 30% buff roughly 80% of the potential time mentioned above and add in the 6% for the other 20%...you'd end up with something more like a 10.08% increase in overall damage.

I'm not sure at all if 45.7% uptime on the 30% buff (12s per cycle) and 20% uptime of the 6% buff (5s per cycle) are reasonable estimates...If anything I would assume that the 30% number would be lower and the 6% number would be higher in reality.

I guess in conclusion what I'm trying to say is that you'll be damn lucky to get an overall damage gain of 10% from Incanter's Ward if you use it on cool down, every time.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

But at the same time doesn't missing a Evocation, or not standing in a rune of power, = I guess in conclusion what I'm trying to say is that you'll be damn lucky to get an overall damage gain of 10% from Incanter's Ward if you use it on cool down, every time.

So when done perfectly:
IW = 12.37% overall damage increase

Invocate = 11.1125% overall damage increase

RoP = 10.308% overall damage increase

The Defense Rest your honor.

DarkLogix
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Also IW gives you a 22k bubble, so more shielding from damage that your healer doesn't have to heal, even if its only worth one tick of their HoT's

McBrain
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join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

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You missed this part, Cig:

it's absolutely impossible to have that 57.14% uptime of the 30% damage buff from IW. Not only would it assume you refresh the spell instantly and have the shield burst for the required damage to give you the 30%, but this would have to happen instantly...every time.

Let me repeat myself, the theoretical maximum damage bonus from Incanter's Ward (12.37%) IS IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. THE NUMBER MORE LIKELY TO REPRESENT USING THE SPELL IMMEDIATELY ON CD IS LESS THAN 10%.

Give me math or show me logs proving otherwise and then we can talk.

And Dark, you're kidding me about the 22k shield as a selling point, right?

The fact is if you use the spell on CD you're not using it to its potential and its return is worse than the other options.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

Whatever McMath,
I need to add this math person to my raid team.
Whatever is not "Achievable"

Well if it is impossible then the math is wrong.
How is it the damn "maximum" if it cannot be achieved?
The math is flawed if it shows a number in which could never happen.

You show only the negatives for IW, not once did anyone mention an evocation that is interrupted, or a RoP clogged with dammage dealing ground affects+recast time+movement.
Math is for sheeople cookie cutter types. Performance>Math.

"The fact is if you use the spell on CD you're not using it to its potential and its return is worse than the other options."

The fact is you really don't know what i am doing, so preach on about something being wrong, with this math person as your back. My recount backs me up.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

McBrain

Member

Cig, maybe you're too angry to read properly, but I clearly stated above that Invocation's assumed uptime for the average player is 80%...with that 80% uptime you'll receive an 8.89% overall increase in damage. I even took it further and said to equal that 8.89% damage increase with Rune of Power, you'd need an uptime of 86%. And I described the 12.37% damage increase from Incanter's Ward as the "theoretical" maximum...that means it's the most you can get in theory, not necessarily in practice...kind of like this, theoretically speaking the minimum amount of pitches a pitcher can throw in a 9 inning baseball game is 27...comprende?

And the math person you need in your raid is Lhivera...Blizzard has named an NPC after her, so she's probably more credible than your anecdotal statements of your recount backing you up.

I'm sorry if you can't see that your current use of Incanter's Ward leaves you with roughly twice the time of ZERO damage buff than you have with the 6% buff. I don't get why you can't see that this is limiting the spell's potential. No one is calling you a bad because how you use Incanter's Ward, just pointing out how you can improve your use of the spell. And since you can't seem to take mathmatically supported constructive criticism without turning into a big ol' Cajun baby, I'll keep my advice and math to myself.

And FWIW, I beat the piss out of the meters in LFR as Arcane...using Rune of Power.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

Sorry if i am abrasive, if you took offense, for that i apologize. I only played a Mage, This xpac they made it possible to pick and choose things you enjoy. Math is for min/maxers, that is cookie cutter-sheeople BS to me. Performance and meters is what i see. BTW a pitcher can throw 27 pitches, so that math works to me.
cigtyme

cigtyme

Member

Sorry to all i snapped at yesterday. I was channeling my inner Cajun(Bourdreux). I realize Math plays a signifigant role in which one to use on certain fights. I would be a fool to think not to switch out talents depending on fight mechanics. What i should of said is, while doing LFR, Heroics, or dailies, i use IW cause it doesn't matter. While raiding i choose whichever one of the three meshes with my playstyle+encounter mechanics. I was in an anger cloud for 3 days and just came up for air. I am too educated to be a pompus ass about it stating one is superior to the other three. Mages or in a good place with choices in my opinion. I can choose any of the three specs, and almost choose different abilities, and be at the top of the charts.

Instead of me arguing so visciously about IW, it should of been for other mages to look at our discussion to understand, or contribute to the conversation. All three of us were being brick walls by not giving in to reason. Yes RoP will produce more Derps on certain fights, as well as Invocation will blow more shit up, and IW will shine in other situations.

So in closing i will say i was wrong, due to ignorance of having to be right.
cymraeg
Thread Killer
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join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE

cymraeg

Premium Member

you werent wrong, playstyle and skill have a lot to do with actual numbers, my arguement comes from math and the empirical evidence shown in WoL, now if you look at Wind Lord fight there isnt a mage anywhere near good numbers, so if you are wrecking it i would like you to seriously use WoL so we can marvel in the mage awesomeness

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

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Ok Cig, stick with me here and hear me out before you snap back a response about not caring about math or being lazy. I'm not pointing a finger at you, specifically, just doing some math about our class and using your particular style as an example for other's to have the opportunity to see some hard numbers behind some of the options. I realize that not everyone min/maxes and the game is about fun, etc, etc. But some people, like myself are interested in seeing the numbers that either support or disprove a particular spell, rotation, stat priority, mechanic, or play style. I'm only using you and your style to discuss a topic that I've not seen any real discussion about that wasn't anecdotal.

So, last night my guild had a make-up day for last Thursday. We were on Mel'Jarek, and we banged our faces against him for about half the allotted raid time. This left me with about 2 hours to kill before it was really bed time, so I decided to do a little research in regards to our conversation about Incanter's Ward yesterday.

I was able to find a combat log of a very well geared and highly skilled Mage who is deep into HoF hard modes and uses Incanter's Ward as his talent of choice in the L90 tier. This Mage's name is Paralove and he plays on the EU server Deathwing. He's got several extremely difficult feats of strength, including 10 and 25 man Tribute to Insanity while it was current content, realm first 85 Mage, and probably most impressive - I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am...dated March, 2011. So this dude is legit, and I assume he knows wtf he is doing when it comes to playing a Mage.

On the WoL parse of his Mel'Jarek 10m Normal kill, he did 160k+ DPS and was within 8% of the ranking limit for Fire Mages. So, he didn't slouch. Using his log, I extracted some values that I used to determine (as close as I possibly could with my limited math skills) the actual percentage of increased damage he recieved over the course of the fight from using Incanter's Ward. Here's what I pulled out:

1. The uptime he maintained of Incanter's Absorption (30% buff from Incanter's Ward breaking)

2. I used an average cool down time of 10s for each cast of IW to get the amount of time he spent casting without a damage buff because IW was on cooldown.

3. I calculated his average GCD based on his raid buffed haste % and used this to determine how much time he spent doing zero damage because he was actually casting IW on himself.

4. I added these values together and the difference between the total and 100% was the percentage of time I assume he was casting under the 6% buff Incanter's Ward gives passively.

Now, I'm not going into all the math I did, because it was late at night and the notepad I was scribbling on is still on my desk at home. That's why I linked the log and described the basics of my approach. You guys can feel free to double check my math and critique my results.

What I ended up with was a total damage bonus of 9.35%, which is 75% of the theoretical maximum that I calculated yesterday. One thing I noticed about his use of Incanter's Ward was that he cast it 9 times in 7 minutes and 10 seconds, and the actual shield itself was only active for 10.5 seconds total. This means he was only casting it when he was expecting it to be broken almost instantly. Having the shield active for an average time of 1.17 seconds per cast is pretty pro, and shows he absolutely knows the encounter. He could have cast the shield two times more than he did, but I assume that he was either CC'ing, getting out of Amber Prison, or using his GCD for something more important for the raid. I assume he could have feasibly fit in 2 or 3 more casts, which would have increased his overall bonus by about 2%.

My second step in this process was to queue myself for HoF part 2 in LFR - specifically Mel'Jarek, use a similar spec as Paralove, as well as Cigtyme's Fireball+Incanter's Ward macro, basically mimicking Cig's playstyle as best as I could from the way it's been described here. Using Temporal Shield instead of Ice Barrier to ensure there was no interference with Incanter's Ward's shield bursting, and the Fireball+IW macro, I pulled 122k...not pro by any stretch, but ~73% of the ranking limit, which I would consider just about average or slightly above...I was third in DPS behind the hackzorz Blood DK and cleave machine Rogue. Using the same steps I used on Paralove's logs I gathered the values of the different buff uptimes of my encounter and calculted the overall damage bonus I received from Incanter's Ward on the same fight with a different playstyle (keeping IW on cool down as much as possible). The results I got were what I expected them to be. An overall damage bonus of 6.88%. The major difference in my parse and Paralove's is the fact that I cast Incanter's Ward four more times than him in 1 minute 16 seconds less time. This led to me having a much higher percentage of time receiving no benefit from the talent at all. The shield averaged nearly 4.5 seconds of uptime each cast before it was broken, meaning that my ratio of 30% damage to 6% damage was about 4 times lower than Paralove's, on top of the fact that I had about 40 more seconds of no buff than him.

The third step I took was to look back in my logs and find a good parse where I used Incanter's Ward in the way that resembles Paralove's playstyle...basically using it when it's needed. I didn't have a previous log where I used IW on Mel'Jarek (I use Invocation there), so I pulled my world #1 Arcane Mage Garalon LFR kill. I realize that this fight is much more condusive to Incanter's Ward's mechanics, the high movement and the constant raid-wide damage will inevitably lead to higher productivity from the spell. But hey, it was nearly 2 am and I really didn't feel like queueing for Mel'Jarek again. Using the same process once again, I pulled my uptimes from Garalon. My calculations led me to a final damage bonus of 10.84%...about 95% of what I proposed as the theoretical maximum of the talent. So, if I were going to pick an encounter where IW's mechanics clearly outshine the other two talents I would say it would be this one. I don't consider myself an elite player, and definitely not an elite Mage, so if I can squeeze out nearly max potential from this talent in this situation, I can only assume a real elite Mage could cap my theoretical max or even prove it to be set too low. I pulled 74.5k on this kill as ARCANE...#1 in the world and 390% of the ranking limit. As a point of reference, I pulled 78.1k on my 10m kill as Fire, which was 66% of my ranking limit.

So here's the point of this wall of text:

Using Incanter's Ward when anticipating damage on Mel'Jarek, a 9.35% damage bonus was achieved by an elite player.

Using Incanter's Ward as close to cool down as possible on Mel'Jarek, a 6.88% damage bonus was achieved by an average player. (Less than 1% more than not casting the shield at all and benefiting from the 6% passive 100% of the time)

Using Incanter's Ward when anticipating damage on Garalon (an encounter seemingly designed for the talent), a 10.84% damage bonus was achieved by an average player.

So in conclusion, it's pretty obvious that using Incanter's Ward on cooldown gimps the talent's potential mightily. While using the spell in anticipation to incoming damage boasts an overall damage bonus gain of 75% over the aforementioned style (9.35% vs 6.88%). Even more, using the talent on a fight where constant damage strong enough to break the shield virtually on cooldown yields the best results by far.

I think the research and testing I've done has proven that if used properly Incanter's Ward is equally as potent a talent as the other two in the L90 tier, and on specific encounters it is without a doubt the clear-cut choice for Magi that are trying to milk every tenth of a point of DPS out of their toon possible.

I understand that you are often top DPS in LFR with your playstyle, Cig. And you are probably happy with that. But, personally, I don't compete against the other DPS in raid finder...most of the time there's no point, I'm usually #1 in my group by a pretty wide margin. I'm more concerned with competing with my self - doing my absolute best to get that "new high score", and I couldn't continue to play a certain way that I know is gimping my potential.

In the end you'll do what you want. But I know you, I've raided with you, and I like you...and I can't let you limit yourself by doing something that is so easily fixed with a little understanding. Stop using that macro and try using Incanter's Ward when you expect damage and let me know honestly what happens.

tuladrin
@idv.net

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Cig, just one answer to all these mage arguments,

BUFF Hunters

bTU
join:2009-04-22
Aurora, CO

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So I guess this all means I should be logging onto Mal'Ganis to level up my mage there. I do need a horde at 90 to get the achievement too.

Jobbie
Keep It Simple
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join:2010-08-24
Mexico

Jobbie

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Yes you should.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
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Houma, LA

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If i said the macro was spammed then my bad. IW is a game of dammage prediction. I have it behind Fireball, cause i wanted it there. This macro wasn't meant to spam. Glad you made that TL;DR wall of text to prove me wrong. Once again i admitted i was wrong. I did not need an episode of CBS's numbers to see where i was wrong. Tell me how i am playing my DK wrong too, or maybe the 3 other toons i have. You are never wrong man. It is a bad trait. Just saying, if you get mad, sorry, you crush me for three pages to say it is right on certain fight on page 5. Could of just said situationally based all 3 choices are valid due to playstyle. Instead of 11.33>10.95>9.65 but the incompitent cig is 6.85.

DarkLogix
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DarkLogix

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You're playing your other toons wrong by playing them, get on the mage.

Mage or burst.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

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I am done on this, i will post mage info if i have anything important. I know my mage, i know my toon. My guildies are happy with my dammage. This is turning into an argument, just to argue. I don't know if i am, or McB is the troll. Really do not like to argue, i said my playstyle and was given numbers to show me to play differently, thanks for posting these numbers i will try them out one day.

Immer
Gentleman
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That was a lot of work, and will go far in helping Magi min/max their use of the L90 talents. I do think, however, that there is a major playstyle variance here that was missed earlier.
said by cigtyme:

All 3 have their spots I just choose Invokers Ward. It is passive. I have it in a Macro where it never falls off. Always up. My dammage has increased since i switched from RoP and Invocation. IDC what math you proove me wrong with. I am lazy as hell and a passive macro is better than a 4 sec cast, or casting 2 circles on the ground and standing in them.

I think here is where the thread got personal for one, and public for the other. Cig went the "this works for me, and I'm good with it" route, and McBrain was more concerned with making sure other Min/max Magi had all possible information. I think both were successful in their message despite the lack of communication between the two of them.

It does look like if you go with IW, then using it in a macro is a slight improvement to not using at all...and not using it at all is also a viable option for someone who isn't ready to min/max lvl90 talents. So, as soon as the mage decides he/she wants to min/max his/her dps, the first step would be to pull IW out of the macro and start using it intentionally for times when you know the shield will get chewed up quickly. The next step would be to start finding fights where Invocation will be better... or the Runes.

I just don't want readers to get the idea that this was a direct battle between McBrain and Cigtyme. It was a clash of both playstyle and theorycraft... with a little bit of miscommunication in the mix, I think.

It's a good debate that, I think (hope), has run its course.
Vinceruos_t
join:2012-05-04

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Use incanters ward on CD for Garalon and Amber shaper Unsok. Every other fight use Invocation. That is all.

DarkLogix
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DarkLogix

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said by Vinceruos_t:

Use incanters ward on CD for Garalon and Amber shaper Unsok. Every other fight use Invocation. That is all.

Have you downed H-spine yet?