 hm @videotron.ca | NEW Wholesale residential high-speed access services150;CBB Decision CRTC 2012-636 Wholesale residential high-speed access services Capacity-based billing model service charge rates and related matters »crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-636.htm
Telecom Order CRTC 2012-634 Videotron G.P. Introduction of 10 Gigabit Ethernet Interconnecting Option Third party Internet access service »crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-634.htm
Telecom Order CRTC 2012-635 Rogers Communications Partnership Introduction of 10 Gigabit Ethernet Interconnecting Option Third party Internet access service »crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-635.htm
First glance looks like price decreases and a larger mark-up for the incumbents. But i'm not sure. One of the resellers here could maybe clarify the new rates versus the old rates.
Also seems like the resellers will have access to fatter pipes, which makes sense.
So are the indie's who are "looking out for the customers" going to drop their monthly rates to reflect the price decreases or is the decrease negligible?
What's the cost saving on the fatter pipes now?
Seems Cogeco got greedy and tried to increase TPIA costs by charging for a dozen "spare parts" (every part imaginable) in case a meteor hits the earth one day and they need 12 of each serviceable part.
CRTC slapped them on the wrist for that one and lowered their costs. |
|
|
|
 resa1983Premium join:2008-03-10 North York, ON kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| JF did a series of tweets on this earlier comparing costs (only editing was fixing spelling mistakes)
#CRTC 2012-636 on CBB change fees may be first one with new transparency rules.. Markup 30% confirmed.
#CRTC decision 2012-636 on CBB changes: old Videotron: $617 for each link. New : $411 for first, $299 for subsequent.
#CRTC decision 2012-636 For Bell Canada: old CBB change fee: $285 per link. New one: $305.49 subsequent ones: $139.54
#CRTC 202-636 For small ISPs with only 1 Bell link. change fee goes from $285 to $305. For multiple links rate is lower.
#CRTC 2012-636 Commission orders Bell (and others) to join the 21st century and provide 10gigE links to ISPs who need them. -- Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
|
 roccaStart.caPremium join:2008-11-16 London, ON kudos:11 1 edit | reply to hm said by hm :So are the indie's who are "looking out for the customers" going to drop their monthly rates to reflect the price decreases or is the decrease negligible? There were no significant changes (edit: "to rates that will effect end users"), ie the capacity rates haven't changed yet - these are about service change fees for infrastructure. For what it's worth, we're already priced based on what we expect capacity rates to be lowered to, eating the outrageous costs until then. Ie, if the CBB rates don't go down significantly when the decision comes out then you're more likely to see the rates of indies go up instead as they move to the aggregated platforms. |
|
 GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM join:2001-11-05 Montreal, QC kudos:20 | reply to hm Are you kidding? There are a ton of important changes here.
Firstly, the CRTC has set a maximum amount of time that incumbents are allowed to take for capacity increases, so incumbents can no longer drag their feet for months and months with no promised install date in site. Non-complex requests are now required to be completed within 15 business days, and complex requests within 60 business days. Rogers current rule about "requests must come in by the first day of the preceding month" was ruled arbitrary and no longer permitted.
This means that, even in the worst case of a "complex" order, it must fit within a fixed period. 60 business days is still about 3 months, but it's a MAXIMUM of 3 months, so an indy ISP can plan based on a known fixed schedule instead of Rogers/Bell's current "We'll get to it eventually, 6 months from now."
The other big news is the 10GigE mandatory access. Some providers already offered 10GigE access, like Videotron. Others, like Bell, flat out refused to do so, leading to scenarios where a company like TekSavvy has something like 80 individual connections to manage and balance. The CRTC's order now requires Bell to offer 10GigE by filing tariffs when the service is requested, which will enormously simplify balancing for wholesale ISPs, leading to a substantially increased quality of service for end-users. -- Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
|
 hm @videotron.ca | reply to rocca said by rocca:Ie, if the CBB rates don't go down significantly when the decision comes out then you're more likely to see the rates of indies go up instead as they move to the aggregated platforms. You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms 
There is Videotron and Bell as well. Videotron is already aggregated and now has a decent price decrease.
Videotron usage rates have to go down. They most certainly can't increase. I expect the same to happen in regards to cogeco.
No clue about Rogers or Bell. |
|
 | reply to resa1983 So who will be the first to drop their prices?
Who will be the first to say they are keeping all cost savings and not passing it onto their beloved customers? |
|
 GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM join:2001-11-05 Montreal, QC kudos:20 | said by yeep :So who will be the first to drop their prices?
Who will be the first to say they are keeping all cost savings and not passing it onto their beloved customers? What cost savings? The change in pricing at the end of the day is so tiny as to be largely irrelevant. -- Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
|
 roccaStart.caPremium join:2008-11-16 London, ON kudos:11 | reply to hm said by hm :You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms 
There is Videotron and Bell as well. Videotron is already aggregated and now has a decent price decrease. No I mean everyone. 
These are service charge changes. In the big picture it's a drop in the bucket. Ie, a $200 savings for a change order on a service costing hundreds of thousands of dollars per month is pretty insignificant.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great decision for the points it covered - ie standard 10G interfaces available, more reasonable ordering intervals, service charges that are not totally insane - all important process related stuff. Hopefully it's a sign of good things to come, but the elephant in the room is still there, jumping and screaming madly. The critical decision of course is the CBB block rate and I'm glad the CRTC is taking it seriously and giving it time to try and get it right, it's crucial they do, but it sure hurts paying the current prices in the mean-time. |
|
 c2rothPremium join:2006-04-26 Kitchener, ON kudos:2 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to hm Love this gem:
quote: 69. However, the Commission notes that Cogecos cost study included supplemental costs associated with spares in the event of a failure, and that a higher level of spares was assumed in their cost study for wholesale services than the level that the company maintains for its own retail services. The Commission considers that this in inappropriate, and that the costs are therefore inflated. The Commission determines that it would be appropriate for Cogeco to apply the same level of spares as it uses in its network for its retail services.
**Emphasis added
Yes Gougeco you cannot play games by claiming that you must keep ready many extra spares on hand when you don't even do this for your own customers. |
|
 resa1983Premium join:2008-03-10 North York, ON kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| Rogers did the same thing.
Appendix quote: Table 1 #9 Commission adjustment Exclude these costs
Rationale for adjustment Refer to paragraphs 29 and 31. Documentation and filing activities should already be included in other CSG activities, not as a separate and distinct activity.
Table 2 #10 Commission adjustment Calculate proposed time estimates by assuming 1.5 interfaces per order on average, assume proposed costs are order-driven, and reduce calculated time estimate by 60%.
#13 Commission adjustment Calculate proposed time estimates by assuming 1.5 interfaces per order on average and reduce recalculated total time estimate by 73%
-- Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
|
 | reply to c2roth
 Cogeco PR Man |
said by c2roth:Yes Gougeco you cannot play games by claiming that you must keep ready many extra spares on hand when you don't even do this for your own customers. There is absolutely *NO* truth to this rumour. The CRTC is misread it. |
|
 GonePremium join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| reply to hm said by hm :You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms  No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality. |
|
 grunze510 join:2009-02-14 Cote Saint-Luc, QC kudos:1 | said by Gone:said by hm :You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms  No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality. I'm not about to look on the CRTC's excuse of a website for the capacity-based prices, so I'm taking some rough guesses here.
I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s). Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen). |
|
 GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM join:2001-11-05 Montreal, QC kudos:20 | reply to hm Don't forget MTS, which was a few hundred bucks per 100 megabit :P -- Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
|
 GonePremium join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| reply to grunze510 said by grunze510:I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s). Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen). They're probably operating on the assumption that if they ask for something double what they have now, the CRTC keeping the rates what they were in 2011-703 (instead of cutting them in half or more, which is the likely outcome) will be a win. |
|
 resa1983Premium join:2008-03-10 North York, ON kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to grunze510 said by grunze510:said by Gone:said by hm :You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms  No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality. I'm not about to look on the CRTC's excuse of a website for the capacity-based prices, so I'm taking some rough guesses here. I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s). Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen). Those are the interim rates. -- Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
|
 | reply to Guspaz said by Guspaz:Firstly, the CRTC has set a maximum amount of time that incumbents are allowed to take for capacity increases, so incumbents can no longer drag their feet for months and months with no promised install date in site. Non-complex requests are now required to be completed within 15 business days, and complex requests within 60 business days.
And the penalties for NOT complying are what exactly? Most likely the incumbent CEO being forced to stand at a bar in Yellowknife and being forced to buy shots for any CRTC commissioner who shows up between 6:00pm to 6:01pm each Thursday there is a full moon from today through to next Friday - would be my guess. |
|
 resa1983Premium join:2008-03-10 North York, ON kudos:7 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
| said by MaynardKrebs:And the penalties for NOT complying are what exactly? Most likely the incumbent CEO being forced to stand at a bar in Yellowknife and being forced to buy shots for any CRTC commissioner who shows up between 6:00pm to 6:01pm each Thursday there is a full moon from today through to next Friday - would be my guess. I think they can revoke licenses.. But we all know that'll never happen for any incumbents unless its a radio station or something.
But yeah, its essentially "Do what we tell you, or we'll shake our fist at you... And yeah, thats all." -- Battle.net Tech Support MVP |
|
 hm @videotron.ca | reply to Gone said by Gone:said by hm :You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms  No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality. Well that exactly what I was getting at (as shown if you quote the whole thing and not selectively cherry-pick).
He is speaking strictly of Ontario cable. Not the whole reality of cable everywhere. Quebec cable is already aggregated so there is no price increase for this. It's only Rogers and Cogeco.
In regards to the price he is stating that is to come out, again an increase would happen with Rogers and perhaps cogeco (assuming their numbers they filed are honest...). Again, in the case of videotron it can't increase. They are already on the border of resellers not wanting to resell them since their price is so high as is. It takes only a couple of "free" speed upgrades to force TPIA providers to *have* to increase costs to their customers themselves to cover usage costs while videotron wouldn't have to.
In the case of Rogers and Cogeco, yeah there are possible price increases. With Videotron it just isn't going to happen. There already isn't lots of room to maneuver w/o eating into their profits (see grunze510 posted rates). Maybe Ebox and TSI-Marc can comment on this.
However, I am thinking prices will decrease across the board for all of them. As the CRTC already pointed out, all the players are gaming the system with inflated costs and made up labour costs (ie 70% overboard!) that does not reflect reality, and no one can argue their costs since no one was allowed to see them. Thus the tiny bit of transparency we are seeing in these last 3 decisions which are pointing out how they played the CRTC, the iisp's, and of course everyone in Canada using a reseller. |
|
 GonePremium join:2011-01-24 Fort Erie, ON kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| said by hm :Well that exactly what I was getting at (as shown if you quote the whole thing and not selectively cherry-pick). I don't think you do, particularly since Rogers and Cogeco are already aggregated and rocca's ISP is running on those aggregated links right now in Ontario. Anything that would apply to the context of Videotron's aggregate network as far as pricing goes would just as equally apply to Rogers' and Cogeco's aggregate networks as well. |
|