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MJB

join:2012-01-29
reply to random

Re: New Canadian Bittorrent lawsuit: Who shared "Recoil&quo

Everything is downloading..
Email, web surfing, YouTube, iTunes, Facebook, Google.
YouTube is next for copyright claiming idiots. Riaa and mpaa
. The Internet is going to be ****** in the next couple of years.
Thank corporations...


analog andy

join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC

Keep your wifi open and keep a cheap netbook on hand to download what you want. They come a knocking you don't know anything and for all you know it could have been someone in the neighbourhood.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to Content

Nothing to worry about though:

quote:
The law generally tries to target genuinely "bad actors", while leaving individuals alone. For example, the law now includes a cap of $5,000 for all non-commercial infringement (commercial infringement can result in liability of $20,000 per infringement). The change reduces the likelihood of lawsuits against individuals for non-commercial activities, including unauthorized downloading or mistaken reliance on fair dealing.
They'd need to take a NON-COMMERCIAL user (in other words, these kids downloading movies illegally) to court, maximum value is $5,000 for ALL (keyword) infringements. Now, if it is for commercial (someone selling copied version of the latest Twilight) purposes, then it would be $20,000 PER (keyword) infringement.

I do believe that sending a lawyer at $300 (at least) an hour to a courthouse to spend a day at court (total daily cost of at least $2,000 -- roughly 1/2 court day ($1,200) plus $800 for travel time and costs) hardly seems worth it.

Of course, users now can just find better ways to download content or simply turn off the sharing portion of their torrenting.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


Content

@videotron.ca
reply to Content

Oops, I missed this part, per the article:

There is going to be another lawsuit coming. It's in the works right now and involves thousands of Canadian IP's.

LOL

Now is a good time to start a similar blackmail company in Canada. Not too difficult to do.



um

@videotron.ca
reply to analog andy

said by analog andy:

Keep your wifi open and keep a cheap netbook on hand to download what you want. They come a knocking you don't know anything and for all you know it could have been someone in the neighbourhood.

Umm yeah.

Seriously do you think some school yard trick like this is going to get you off?

1. Legal letter spelling out they have your IP and got your name from your ISP.

2. In the letter they demand 3,500$ or they will bring legal action on you.

3. Don't pay and they will bring you to court for the full legal amount of 5,000$

4. You don't get to plead ignorant at this point. You pay or go to court. End of story.

5. You don't pay, so you have to hire a lawyer. A minimum of a few grand there. Minimum.

6. In court you can play dumb. No one cares. Burden of proof will be on you to prove your innocence while they slap down paperwork showing your IP and name associated to the IP given to them from your ISP.

7. What? You need an expert witness on your behalf to say what flaws if any exist in their methods? That's a few grand more.

8. Judge says ok your not guilty. You are out of pocket by now a minimum of 6 grand. Minimum. Which is about 3-grand more than what they demanded to begin with.

9. or you are found guilty. So now you paid your lawyer, the expert plus the 5,000$ fine allowed by law. That is about 11,000$, minimum. More if you have to pay their legal costs, if that's applicable here, which it might likely be since you refused to settle to begin with. So now that's around 11,000$ plus their high priced lawyers and their experts and whatever else. Who knows. Who cares at this point.

The system is now set-up like the states. Pay now or pay more later. It's an entire payola blackmail scheme like in the states.

So when you get your letter, are you really going to play dumb and go to court instead of paying 3500$?

What if you are really innocent? Doesn't matter. We now have a payola blackmail scheme in place. You will pay 10-grand or more to fight it.

Meanwhile Bell and Rogers charge ~ 200$ for each IP request (info associate to the IP). Bell and Rogers are now making good money to give your info away (sell your info, that is).

The article states a nice lawsuit is coming against thousands of Canadians. Let us assume 20,000 people.

Teksavvy 5,000 People
Bell, 5,000 people
Rogers 5000 people
Videotron 5000 people

Each of these companies will get 5000x~200$ each for your info.

Do you think it's in a companies best interest to fight and protect your info at their cost? However, privacy laws say they are supposed to protect your info to a certain extent. But that isn't exactly happening. And at what cost to them are they to protect it? You aren't worth ten grand to them. Not even 1-grand for your 500$/yr service. They don't care.

heh.

Win-Win for everyone, except for you. Guilty or innocent.

This is called a payola scheme. It's legal blackmail. This is what has been happening in the states for a good decade.

So tell me again how you are going to tell someone it must have been some thief sitting in a car outside your house downloading Debby Does the Gang Bus. And to who are you going to tell this to at no cost to you again?

Umm Hope you are on welfare so you can get legal aid at least to plead this for you. And I hope you have zero assets (like a car or kitchen table) that bailiffs are going to come and take when the verdict goes against you.

Better hope the first few cases do end up in court and some precedence is set.

The law-firm behind this payola blackmail scheme is going to be making hundreds of thousands very soon.

Mass lawsuits and mass legalized blackmail is where the money is at. Ask the Americans, who also happen to be the ones who pushed and lobbied our Gov for these new Canadian laws. It opens a whole new payola blackmail market for them.

heh open wifi. Can't wait to see the first lawsuit to plead that one. Even if true.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

And how are they going to go after the people who live in the streets after all that? If one has zero assets and zero cash, do they get conscripted into the military or something or be forced to shuffle paperwork for these extortionist trolls?



NameAnon

@teksavvy.com
reply to um

What I would like to know is how is it possible to sue a person today based on a law that did not exist when the supposed breach happened. In other words, laws are not retroactive. So, if a person downloaded something before the law came into effect, shouldn't this person be immune from such law?



russel

@electronicbox.net
reply to um

said by um :

8. Judge says ok your not guilty. You are out of pocket by now a minimum of 6 grand. Minimum. Which is about 3-grand more than what they demanded to begin with.

9. or you are found guilty. So now you paid your lawyer, the expert plus the 5,000$ fine allowed by law. That is about 11,000$, minimum. More if you have to pay their legal costs, if that's applicable here, which it might likely be since you refused to settle to begin with. So now that's around 11,000$ plus their high priced lawyers and their experts and whatever else. Who knows. Who cares at this point.

So if you win the court case you still have to pay fees? I'm not so sure about that one. Judges can (and usually do) award all the court costs to the loser. It's a well known disincentive for bringing court cases forward.

Also, nobody can force you to pay in the event you lose. Sure they might harass you for years to come, and try to ruin your credit report, but there's no way they can actually force you to pay; for example if someone is retired and living off their public pension, you simply can't force them to pay -- the only time it's possible is if you owe money to CRA or another govt department.

cheapbastard

join:2009-04-14
reply to Content

New revenue strategy for movie makers, "if you can't make revenue at the box office, make it from the downloaders", especially the shitty movies.
Also never heard of this movie till the article was published...will go download it now.


analog andy

join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC
reply to um

said by um :

Seriously do you think some school yard trick like this is going to get you off?

Show me the bi-law or Canadian law that says its illegal for me to keep my WiFI router open. I haven't read the details but I'm pretty sure they still need a warrant for the ISP to give out the personal details of the IP holder.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:1

said by analog andy:

Show me the bi-law or Canadian law that says its illegal for me to keep my WiFI router open. I haven't read the details but I'm pretty sure they still need a warrant for the ISP to give out the personal details of the IP holder.

It's not illegal to leave your wifi open but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility with regards to the use of the internet connection which you (and only you) are under contract with your ISP for.

Samgee

join:2010-08-02
canada
kudos:2
reply to um

Um, I think you're off on pretty much every single point you tried to make. The law put is place isn't going to make ISP's rich for handing over your information, or rights holders hundreds of thousands for their claims either.

For anyone concerned, Michael Geist addressed this today.

»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6710/125/



MJB

join:2012-01-29

would a youtube downloader be consider bit torrent example type the address of the video from youtube and download it as a .mp4
will they go after that next?


analog andy

join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC
reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

said by analog andy:

Show me the bi-law or Canadian law that says its illegal for me to keep my WiFI router open. I haven't read the details but I'm pretty sure they still need a warrant for the ISP to give out the personal details of the IP holder.

It's not illegal to leave your wifi open but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility with regards to the use of the internet connection which you (and only you) are under contract with your ISP for.

That's between me and my ISP and not the authorities or the media companies.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Samgee

said by Samgee:

Um, I think you're off on pretty much every single point you tried to make. The law put is place isn't going to make ISP's rich for handing over your information, or rights holders hundreds of thousands for their claims either.

For anyone concerned, Michael Geist addressed this today.

»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6710/125/

No one is going after anyone if they can't make a profit.

While it's nice that the system in Canada is going to be based on what you can afford, unlike the states, it is still going to cost you more than the 100$ Geist is talking about.

Let's look at the economics of it.

Bell and Rogers charge ~$200+ just to give your info away. This isn't coming down in price. Examples of this can be found in the hurt locker lawsuit and some other lawsuits with the states. And also found on Geists site.

THe demand letter isn't going to be for 25$ when they have to pay for:
1) this Canpire company costs
2) Some sort of lawyer to bring this to court to get peoples info from IP's
3) The 200$+ to Bell and Rogers per IP
4) Notarized/Legal demand letters
5) the Costs to the Company who hired Canpire to go after you
6) The stamp on the letter.

Geist makes it sound as if you will be charged 100$ if it goes to court. This is just an example of the proportionate fines you can get... *if* you were on welfare.

The Demand letter isn't going to be for 100$ when Bell alone charges 200$ for your info. Does that even make sense?

And if you aren't on welfare to get a free lawyer and you have to pay your own lawyer, Will the lawyer be free like Geist is implying? Will CIPPIC represent each person for free? How much is the lawyer? 3$?

Sorry. This isn't going to be 100$ like what is written there. I think he's playing this down.

I'm no lawyer, clearly, but there is no way someone is getting away with this for 100$. Unless they are on welfare.

Do you honestly think a company is going to pay 500$ minimum, so they can sue you for 100$?


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to NameAnon

said by NameAnon :

What I would like to know is how is it possible to sue a person today based on a law that did not exist when the supposed breach happened. In other words, laws are not retroactive. So, if a person downloaded something before the law came into effect, shouldn't this person be immune from such law?

There never was a law that made you "immune".

Also, if we look at the hurt locker lawsuit, Bell, Rogers, Cogeco, videotron et all seems to keep all IP related info (telling who the IP belong to) for a minimum of 3-months. That is why the hurt locker case was expedited in a real hurry. Practically same day.

I'm not sure if the new laws forces IP's to keep records for a year, or just an "infringers" info for one year. ONe of the indie owners here can answer that.

But up until a month ago, records for IP traceability was limited to 3 months from what we can tell from the hurt locker lawsuit.

So no immunity. Not sure about the big telco's record retentions now. Something must have changed if they are going back 5-months yet hurt locker shows 3 months was the limit.

analog andy

join:2005-01-03
Surrey, BC
reply to hm

um and hm have the same FUD posting style. Probably a Canpire employee who apparently knows more then a real lawyer.

LOL on the news it stated Canpire is located in a secret warehouse location. What have they got to worry about? If you're a legitimate business you shouldn't need to hide your location.

Canipre website »canipre.com/contact.html



Um n hm

@videotron.ca

said by analog andy:

um and hm have the same FUD posting style. Probably a Canpire employee who apparently knows more then a real lawyer.

Yes. I work for CRIAA and I'm the one who set up Canpire. Cat is out of the bag now. I am just testing everyone to put fear in you. Please click on my ads at Canpire. I get 3-cents a click.

BTW, if we read the comments on Geists blog, you will see people saying the same. This isn't going to cost some 100$. Only way possible is if you are on welfare.

Samgee

join:2010-08-02
canada
kudos:2
reply to hm

said by hm :

Do you honestly think a company is going to pay 500$ minimum, so they can sue you for 100$?

No company in their right mind would do that, and I think that's the point.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Samgee:

said by hm :

Do you honestly think a company is going to pay 500$ minimum, so they can sue you for 100$?

No company in their right mind would do that, and I think that's the point.

Well I guess those are the chances Canpire and whatever law firm behind them are going to take.

I know if I got a call or letter from these people I would say I am on welfare with 9 kids. Make them think twice about going after you. This is the only thing I can think of as a way to intimidate them back. By making them think you are a losing candidate to sue.

A game of chicken.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Content

said by Content :

Canadian BitTorrent Users Targeted for the First Time by Canadian Studio
»copyrightenforcement.ca/canadian···-studio/

Yesterday morning, the Federal Court in Montreal ordered the disclosure of the names and addresses of approximately 50 individuals who alleged illegally copied and distributed copyrighted materials belonging to Canadian Film Producer, NGN Prima Productions.

This is the first time a Canadian studio has sought damages in a Canadian court against Canadian BitTorrent users.

View … Court Order, NGN vs Does

As written, the order will compel Canadian ISPs to release identifying information for the customers associated with the infringing IP addresses.
... continues...

Anyone have the 50 IP's in question?

In addition, this Canadian studio has launched lawsuits in both Boston and Florida.

Montreal Court Order:
»copyrightenforcement.ca/wp-conte···real.pdf

Info on the Boston and Florida cases:
»copyrightenforcement.ca/canadian···sharing/

This now marks the first time a Canadian company is pulling American tactics.

1 as a hacker knowing the law i have one question HOW DO YOU obtain info on someone without a warrant
NO really if you scanned or used DPI tech its against the law and inadmissible without a warrant....

2 if you provided it in a swarm that is a privacy breach,

3 if you merely were in the swarm that is no different then a scan technically to find ips using a protocol ergo using the app to locate people using a protocol and port(s)

1 and 3 are definitely illegal....

oh and 5 grand cap ....also most they can take off a disability check is 50 a month
and the 5 grand is for everything you infringe....and as they only get 50 a month taking 8.3 years.....enjoy .....
im saying i have a copy of everything if ever busted then ill just go get it later....
hahahaha
oh welfare is half disability ....that amount too....

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to fishing rod

said by fishing rod :

said by msharif:

I haven't been following canadian ip or copyright law. Can I get a link?

www.google.ca?

What the New Copyright Law Means For You
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6695/135/

Canadian Copyright Reform In Force: Expanded User Rights Now the Law
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6692/125/

Government To Delay Implementation of Bill C-11's Internet Provider Rules
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6686/125/

use google to find more?

now go visit the charter of rights and freedoms and see how section 2 , 7 , 8 and 12 are violated because i pay a levy and then get penalized....and before you start yammering about music only look up what the darn word media means ....its more hen just music.Funny how lawyers try and cut the angle to just music....

also laws cannot be made in canada the govt has no wish or the cops cant or say they wont enforce as the RCMP said....
that means you have another charter challenge that the law is unenforceable because the govt itself is refusing to enforce it.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to random

said by random :

If they have around 1 million distinct IP addresses record, then 1 out of 30 person in Canada can be sued/ransomed.

Stats Can average Canadian household size is around 2.5 which means it is about 1 in 12 households!
»www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau···-eng.htm

So next time when there is someone knocking the door with a big envelope at the door, it is more likely to be a lawyer than someone from publishers clearing house.

i say go for it the most you get fomr me is 50 a month
thats the most a person with a disability can pay to anyone including the govt or a creditor

no skin off my back and its for everything you infringe so once you pay it and its worded this way , go ahead and carry on you're paying for the judgement of law....

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to funny

said by funny:

said by fishing rod :

said by msharif:

I haven't been following canadian ip or copyright law. Can I get a link?

www.google.ca?

What the New Copyright Law Means For You
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6695/135/

Canadian Copyright Reform In Force: Expanded User Rights Now the Law
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6692/125/

Government To Delay Implementation of Bill C-11's Internet Provider Rules
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6686/125/

use google to find more?

now go visit the charter of rights and freedoms and see how section 2 , 7 , 8 and 12 are violated because i pay a levy and then get penalized....and before you start yammering about music only look up what the darn word media means ....its more hen just music.Funny how lawyers try and cut the angle to just music....

also laws cannot be made in canada the govt has no wish or the cops cant or say they wont enforce as the RCMP said....
that means you have another charter challenge that the law is unenforceable because the govt itself is refusing to enforce it.

OH and i traced the DNS of the website to a california host....
which means that the website says montreal BUT its located in the USA....
there fore its in the usa....by our laws...will be fun to see tax revenues drop like rocks as the rich fat cats drag money out of everyone and harper gets screwed to balance his precious budget now...he dont get there are 21 million net accounts in canada and nearly 8-10 million pirates....
lets say they get 1 million times 5 grand = 5 billion
thats 5 billion times 13% that font get into govts hands
600 million poofed GOOD work dumbass conservatives what's next ending health care all together so some jerk can sit on his ass for 80 years....

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:1
reply to analog andy

said by analog andy:

said by IamGimli:

said by analog andy:

Show me the bi-law or Canadian law that says its illegal for me to keep my WiFI router open. I haven't read the details but I'm pretty sure they still need a warrant for the ISP to give out the personal details of the IP holder.

It's not illegal to leave your wifi open but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility with regards to the use of the internet connection which you (and only you) are under contract with your ISP for.

That's between me and my ISP and not the authorities or the media companies.

Then you need to read the law again because the illegal acts you commit using your ISPs services very much are a concern of copyright holders and the justice system.

Moreover your ISP is obligated by law to cooperate with any legal proceeding as soon as evidence of their service being used to break the law is presented to them.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

Nothing to worry about though:

quote:
The law generally tries to target genuinely "bad actors", while leaving individuals alone. For example, the law now includes a cap of $5,000 for all non-commercial infringement (commercial infringement can result in liability of $20,000 per infringement). The change reduces the likelihood of lawsuits against individuals for non-commercial activities, including unauthorized downloading or mistaken reliance on fair dealing.
They'd need to take a NON-COMMERCIAL user (in other words, these kids downloading movies illegally) to court, maximum value is $5,000 for ALL (keyword) infringements. Now, if it is for commercial (someone selling copied version of the latest Twilight) purposes, then it would be $20,000 PER (keyword) infringement.

I do believe that sending a lawyer at $300 (at least) an hour to a courthouse to spend a day at court (total daily cost of at least $2,000 -- roughly 1/2 court day ($1,200) plus $800 for travel time and costs) hardly seems worth it.

Of course, users now can just find better ways to download content or simply turn off the sharing portion of their torrenting.

two caveats
those on OAS, welfare max they can pay a creditor is 25/month
disability its 50$ a month
so 16.6 years to recover your 5 grand for the first two and 8.3 years for the disability person

me thinks this will back fire as every single one of those should get donations and force them to trial and make em cost it hard
the max i can get is 5 grand so if i cost you ten grand that eats at other judgements buy others and if you think this business model will work then your in for fail if this idea catches on....

what are the odds that one or two or 10 of those 80 being sued are in any of these categories? PROLLY pretty good
every welfare person that costs them 10 grand to go to trial means 2 they have to get 10 grand cash off of....
disability same htng as they dont see the value for a long long time....
i hope i die before hte payments are done too....haha

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to russel

said by russel :

said by um :

8. Judge says ok your not guilty. You are out of pocket by now a minimum of 6 grand. Minimum. Which is about 3-grand more than what they demanded to begin with.

9. or you are found guilty. So now you paid your lawyer, the expert plus the 5,000$ fine allowed by law. That is about 11,000$, minimum. More if you have to pay their legal costs, if that's applicable here, which it might likely be since you refused to settle to begin with. So now that's around 11,000$ plus their high priced lawyers and their experts and whatever else. Who knows. Who cares at this point.

So if you win the court case you still have to pay fees? I'm not so sure about that one. Judges can (and usually do) award all the court costs to the loser. It's a well known disincentive for bringing court cases forward.

Also, nobody can force you to pay in the event you lose. Sure they might harass you for years to come, and try to ruin your credit report, but there's no way they can actually force you to pay; for example if someone is retired and living off their public pension, you simply can't force them to pay -- the only time it's possible is if you owe money to CRA or another govt department.

ill use donations for a lawyer and make the maffia er mpaa and friends come to court

ill make sure i get around 6-8 grand and make it a 2-3 day affair thus making sure they have to pay there lawyers 6-8 grand then get a judgemnet fo 5 grand and then realize that they can only get 50 a month from me ..i'll also admit to forgetting where i stashed my 30 terabytes of the rest of the net stuff i dled but they cna jsut add everything thats out there and ill go get a copy later....
after all once you guilty of it once can you be sued for it again
because after all its for all infringing material well i admit then i downloaded every thing up and i have a pending list of all things i will download and ill get the court laughing its ass off.

then ill make sure everyone incourt knows that 50 a month is all i am legally bound to pay per month
have a nice day and thanks for all hte fish
its kinda like a net levy.......

Samgee

join:2010-08-02
canada
kudos:2
reply to Content

I don't think any of the companies want this tested in court, since not only are they taking the chance that their costs will be higher than the decision rewarded, there's a chance this could be taken to the supreme court and have it decided that an IP address can not be connected to an individual. They just have too much to lose.


funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

Then you need to read the law again because the illegal acts you commit using your ISPs services very much are a concern of copyright holders and the justice system.

Moreover your ISP is obligated by law to cooperate with any legal proceeding as soon as evidence of their service being used to break the law is presented to them.

sue me then i dont care i can afford the 50 a month im legally bound to pay....
will be grand come election time when all the disabled vote the govt out and remove the law....as well as the rest of us...

84% didnt want this law and now you are gonna see wrath about it...if i were a musician id stay indoors same with actors..you aint popular shits now....bring bodyguards and hide not to mention the tax losses that are gonna start occurring ....with us so wired and so into it all you really get a sad sad feeling that this isnt about musicians its about americans just screwing us...and after all the company has been traced back to california the person listed is american and NOT canadian....and its all american ...at least if your gonna do this have it be a canuck but they cant find a canuck i bet that wants to do it.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Samgee

said by Samgee:

I don't think any of the companies want this tested in court, since not only are they taking the chance that their costs will be higher than the decision rewarded, there's a chance this could be taken to the supreme court and have it decided that an IP address can not be connected to an individual. They just have too much to lose.

not to mention the aspect of gathering data on a private citizen without a warrant ...and they aren't even allowed to use a warrant for search and seizure thus a charter violation could also be said against the unreasonable search and seizure.....

the levy section and then fining me is if you read the charter like saying go ahead cross at the green light we will charge you 26.7 cents but after you cross the street were gonna fine and take you stressfully through a court process for 5000 dollars....that too is one aspect that if one has a real tight lawyer could make some waves on harpers lil hollywood wet dream.