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hm

@videotron.ca
reply to rocca

Re: NEW Wholesale residential high-speed access services150;CBB

said by rocca:

Ie, if the CBB rates don't go down significantly when the decision comes out then you're more likely to see the rates of indies go up instead as they move to the aggregated platforms.

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

There is Videotron and Bell as well. Videotron is already aggregated and now has a decent price decrease.

Videotron usage rates have to go down. They most certainly can't increase. I expect the same to happen in regards to cogeco.

No clue about Rogers or Bell.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by hm :

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

There is Videotron and Bell as well. Videotron is already aggregated and now has a decent price decrease.

No I mean everyone.

These are service charge changes. In the big picture it's a drop in the bucket. Ie, a $200 savings for a change order on a service costing hundreds of thousands of dollars per month is pretty insignificant.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great decision for the points it covered - ie standard 10G interfaces available, more reasonable ordering intervals, service charges that are not totally insane - all important process related stuff. Hopefully it's a sign of good things to come, but the elephant in the room is still there, jumping and screaming madly. The critical decision of course is the CBB block rate and I'm glad the CRTC is taking it seriously and giving it time to try and get it right, it's crucial they do, but it sure hurts paying the current prices in the mean-time.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to hm
said by hm :

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality.

grunze510

join:2009-02-14
Cote Saint-Luc, QC
kudos:1
said by Gone:

said by hm :

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality.

I'm not about to look on the CRTC's excuse of a website for the capacity-based prices, so I'm taking some rough guesses here.

I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s).
Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen).


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by grunze510:

I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s).
Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen).

They're probably operating on the assumption that if they ask for something double what they have now, the CRTC keeping the rates what they were in 2011-703 (instead of cutting them in half or more, which is the likely outcome) will be a win.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by hm :

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality.

Well that exactly what I was getting at (as shown if you quote the whole thing and not selectively cherry-pick).

He is speaking strictly of Ontario cable. Not the whole reality of cable everywhere. Quebec cable is already aggregated so there is no price increase for this. It's only Rogers and Cogeco.

In regards to the price he is stating that is to come out, again an increase would happen with Rogers and perhaps cogeco (assuming their numbers they filed are honest...). Again, in the case of videotron it can't increase. They are already on the border of resellers not wanting to resell them since their price is so high as is. It takes only a couple of "free" speed upgrades to force TPIA providers to *have* to increase costs to their customers themselves to cover usage costs while videotron wouldn't have to.

In the case of Rogers and Cogeco, yeah there are possible price increases. With Videotron it just isn't going to happen. There already isn't lots of room to maneuver w/o eating into their profits (see grunze510 posted rates). Maybe Ebox and TSI-Marc can comment on this.

However, I am thinking prices will decrease across the board for all of them. As the CRTC already pointed out, all the players are gaming the system with inflated costs and made up labour costs (ie 70% overboard!) that does not reflect reality, and no one can argue their costs since no one was allowed to see them. Thus the tiny bit of transparency we are seeing in these last 3 decisions which are pointing out how they played the CRTC, the iisp's, and of course everyone in Canada using a reseller.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to grunze510
said by grunze510:

said by Gone:

said by hm :

You are speaking solely for Rogers and Cogeco I take it. People exist outside those realms

No, he's talking about CBB rates, which have yet to be decided. His realm is reality.

I'm not about to look on the CRTC's excuse of a website for the capacity-based prices, so I'm taking some rough guesses here.

I think Rogers is currently charging $1200/100Mbit/s ($12000/Gbit/s), Videotron is charging $1900/100Mbit/s ($19000/Gbit/s), Bell charges about $2200/100Mbit/s ($22000/Gbit/s), and Cogeco charges about $2800/100Mbit/s ($28000/Gbit/s).
Now, with that in mind, and if I remember right, didn't Videotron later file asking to charge an insane $4500/100Mbit/s ($45000/Gbit/s)? I don't know about Robellco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for double their current rates. I'm hoping for the best (but don't know if it'll happen).

Those are the interim rates.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to hm
said by hm :

Well that exactly what I was getting at (as shown if you quote the whole thing and not selectively cherry-pick).

I don't think you do, particularly since Rogers and Cogeco are already aggregated and rocca's ISP is running on those aggregated links right now in Ontario. Anything that would apply to the context of Videotron's aggregate network as far as pricing goes would just as equally apply to Rogers' and Cogeco's aggregate networks as well.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by Gone:

said by hm :

Well that exactly what I was getting at (as shown if you quote the whole thing and not selectively cherry-pick).

I don't think you do, particularly since Rogers and Cogeco are already aggregated and rocca's ISP is running on those aggregated links right now in Ontario. Anything that would apply to the context of Videotron's aggregate network as far as pricing goes would just as equally apply to Rogers' and Cogeco's aggregate networks as well.

Rogers did not have aggregated. It was mandated to do this over time. And now they are ready for it after X-years in the works. Cogeco, no clue, they are broken up in diff territories and prov's with diff points of interconnect the last time I looked. Does Start also Service Quebec Cogeco territory though a single point of interconnection? Because this was also something asked to do. Does one point of interconnect give Start the whole of cogeco's Quebec and Ontario foot print? Last I read, the answer was no. Unless this has now been addressed.

Rocca can maybe answer that one.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by hm :

Rogers did not have aggregated. It was mandated to do this over time. And now they are ready for it after X-years in the works.

So what? They have a functional aggregated POI available now. What's your point?

said by hm :

Cogeco, no clue, they are broken up in diff territories and prov's with diff points of interconnect the last time I looked.

There's only two interconnects - Burlington for Ontario and Trois-Rivieres for Quebec. This isn't "broken up" - the Burlington POI aggregates roughly 20-30 POIs in Ontario and Trois-Rivieresaround ten or so in Quebec. Cogeco Ontario and Cogeco Quebec are functionally separated, just like Rogers Ontario and Rogers Atlantic Canada are.

said by hm :

Does Start also Service Quebec Cogeco territory though a single point of interconnection? Because this was also something asked to do. Does one point of interconnect give Start the whole of cogeco's Quebec and Ontario foot print? Last I read, the answer was no. Unless this has now been addressed.

No, and it never will. Seeing as how Videotron doesn't serve anywhere except for Quebec and the very immediate Francophone near-periphery in Ontario and New Brunswick, we have zero way of knowing if they would have designed their network any differently and if they would have functional separation, though from what I remember - and this is going back at least 15 years or so now - when they had operations in Alberta and Manitoba, they *were* functionally separated from Quebec and if we were to translate this into a similar parallel today in is more than logical that they would have regional aggregate POIs for Alberta, Manitoba and Quebec like Rogers has for Ontario and Atlantic and Cogeco has for Ontario and Quebec. Ultimately we'll never know, and any comments you make on this particular issue would be nothing more than speculation seeing as how they only function in one province today.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to hm
said by hm :

Does one point of interconnect give Start the whole of cogeco's Quebec and Ontario foot print? Last I read, the answer was no. Unless this has now been addressed.

No, Cogeco has two POI's, one in Ontario and one in Quebec. To connect to their entire footprint you'd have to connect to both POI's.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to hm
said by hm :

However, I am thinking prices will decrease across the board for all of them. As the CRTC already pointed out, all the players are gaming the system with inflated costs and made up labour costs (ie 70% overboard!) that does not reflect reality, and no one can argue their costs since no one was allowed to see them.

If you're talking about the CBB block capacity rate, then yes, we're expecting them to go down too but that was my point. If IISP's have to keep paying $15,000-$30,000/Gbps for capacity and backhaul then I think it's more likely to see prices increase for consumers in the near future. If the prices come down 50% then I think you'll see the current retail prices stay where they are. Alternatively, if the CRTC comes back at $2/Mbps like MTS then yes at that type of reduction it could be a game changer and see a reduction in prices for consumers, but I don't think that's too likely even though it'd be considerably closer to the actual transport costs compared to where they are today.

geokilla

join:2010-10-04
North York, ON
Guys guys. "Idiots" read this forum too. Can someone summarize this in idiot terms?

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
said by geokilla:

Guys guys. "Idiots" read this forum too. Can someone summarize this in idiot terms?

Have lots of lube handy, just in case.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to geokilla
said by geokilla:

Guys guys. "Idiots" read this forum too. Can someone summarize this in idiot terms?

Summary:

Nothing.
Nothing affects the end user. Except resellers get a small price decrease and they can remain in business so that you have a choice of buying their services at the same (or more) cost.

If we review what was said here, the next cost review (the big one) will have no impact on the end user who are over-paying as well. The so called indi's stated they will keep any money, and not reduce costs.

So this is your answer for these releases, and for the next big cost decrease coming. You are to remain happy that prices won't go down and just be happy you can buy a bell reseller.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by hm :

If we review what was said here, the next cost review (the big one) will have no impact on the end user who are over-paying as well. The so called indi's stated they will keep any money, and not reduce costs.
So this is your answer for these releases, and for the next big cost decrease coming. You are to remain happy that prices won't go down and just be happy you can buy a bell reseller.

BZZZT wrong again. The indies will not be "keeping" any money. Instead, if you read what one here has said, they've priced their services based on the expected cost adjustments in the CBB R&V. There's no money to "keep" when you're already operating at a loss.


shrug

@videotron.ca
said by Gone:

BZZZT wrong again.

Once again I would ask that you try and understand what was said, what was actually written, and maybe trying to understand it all.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

BZZZT wrong again. The indies will not be "keeping" any money. Instead, if you read what one here has said, they've priced their services based on the expected cost adjustments in the CBB R&V. There's no money to "keep" when you're already operating at a loss.

I don't think the "indies" are operating at a loss right now. The issue is that as average usage patterns increase, under the current pricing, the margins will get squeezed to a point where indies will either have to stop offering unlimited or raise prices. If they don't then they WILL be operating at a loss. At current growth patterns, give it 2-3 years maximum.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to shrug
said by shrug :

Once again I would ask that you try and understand what was said, what was actually written, and maybe trying to understand it all.

I understand exactly what you said as worded exactly by you. If it was your intention to convey a different point, I would recommend that you gain a better grasp of the English language.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to hm
said by hm :

so that you have a choice of buying their services at the same (or more) cost.

Same or more compared to what? The IISP's current prices? The incumbent prices?