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Larhleolynx

join:2012-11-22
Huntsville, ON

1 edit

Trying to help a friend

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Hey there folks,

I've been coming to dslreports for several years for information, but I've never had to ask a direct question, because someone has already asked and its been solved. Today is different though, because a guy a work with is trying to get DSL installed to his apartment. He doesn't want Bell because he is afraid of the download caps. So he wants to get either Primus' unlimited package, or TekSavvy. The problem starts there, he has called both companies and they have informed him that they can't supply him DSL due to line quality. One of the phone support people told him upto his demarc they were reading a solid 6meg connection, but upto the wall jack was quite degraded. I think they said 0.9meg down by 0.64meg up.

I only have basic wiring skills, but I'm pretty certain I can do the work if someone can tell me what is wrong, if anything in the situation. I really appreciate any help that anyone can give in this manner, my friend really does not want to deal with Bell at all.

Here are the pictures:(If I need to take more, it isn't a problem)


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
Your friend is probably being fed a line of BS by the CLECs. There is no "magical" line test that a CLEC can do to give the results you described without a dispatch.
Yes, they can MLT for length, load coils, and resistive faults. They can't test for prem or near prem speeds without #) wiring the circuit and #2) boots on the ground.

Also, if this is a rented apartment, you'll probably need the LL permission to do anything with the wiring.
Other than generally sloppy workmanship, there's really not much to talk about in the pictures. It does look like that NID serves several units, so you should be careful about what you touch. You could very easily knock the neighbors OOS, and they will be pissed.
This is probably the kind of job that is best left to the pros. I would call Bell and establish service with them if they can provide it. He can think about switching after that.

You should probably blur the phone numbers as well.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Larhleolynx
said by Larhleolynx:

One of the phone support people told him upto his demarc they were reading a solid 6meg connection, but upto the wall jack was quite degraded. I think they said 0.9meg down by 0.64meg up.

How did they determine that? Unless he already has a DSL modem, there's no way to make those measurements remotely.


redhat1968

join:2000-10-17
Appleton, WI
reply to Larhleolynx
I have been doing telcom for 18 years and, from what you have said, it is complete BS. I can tell what speed you will get, or close to it, just by doing a line qual on your copper pair. If it is a CLEC, they do not have access to the copper pair until the line is ordered and the LEC ties it down on their frame. If the CLEC will re-use or resell the DSL, they still can't test the line. Even when the LEC , or CLEC after the order was made, test the line remotely, they cannot tell if the loop is bad 20 ft from your demark or 20 feet on your side of the demark without a tech being on site.
--
I cried because I had no shoes, until I saw a man who had no feet..
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Larhleolynx

join:2012-11-22
Huntsville, ON
reply to Larhleolynx
I'm sorry, I was in a rush when I posted this, I should have mentioned a few things. The Landlord is his father and is okay with what his son wants. Neither of them want to deal with Bell if they don't have to, even though the owner has a business phone and DSL. None of the phone lines on the apartment are actually in-use currently. They're all dead lines, or should be.

Onto further details. The building that has that Demarc attached to it, is 2 apartments. But the building is on the same property as the main building which is serviced with a business Bell phone and a business Bell DSL line. As far as I can tell, the main building has its own drop, and its own gnarly looking setup in the basement. Is there any possibility that service by another company could be denied to the apartment building by the Bell business line running to the main building? They're on the same property, but separate units.

Why would my friend be told what he was told by the people on the phone? Is it just a tactic to get him to move on because they don't know how to help him, or just can't help him?


wrong forum

@videotron.ca
reply to Larhleolynx
said by Larhleolynx:

1. So he wants to get either Primus' unlimited package, or TekSavvy. The problem starts there, he has called both companies and they have informed him that they can't supply him DSL due to line quality.

2. One of the phone support people told him upto his demarc they were reading a solid 6meg connection, but upto the wall jack was quite degraded. I think they said 0.9meg down by 0.64meg up.

3. I only have basic wiring skills, but I'm pretty certain I can do the work if someone can tell me what is wrong, if anything in the situation. I really appreciate any help that anyone can give in this manner,

4. my friend really does not want to deal with Bell at all.

1. What they likely did was test some customers they have in that postal code/address area for what speeds they have. So this way they can ball-park the figure.

2. Your friend was lied to. Whoever this company was, take them off your list.

3. The only thing I could recommend is hooking the modem up to the demarc where the service is currently, go into the modem firmware (I assume this is an old bell 6500 modem?) and get the line stats.

These stats will tell you what the "Attentuation" is, Signal to Noise ratrio ("SNR") is, and what upload and download speeds you have currently (ie. the speed profile Bell has you on).

Record these stats for the demarc.

Then repeat the same test while the modem is plugged in the jack where the Bell service is (the speed profile "should" be the same unless there is a line problem dropping the speed lower than what Bell has set on your line).

After you get the two sets of results paste them in this post so that we can determine if there is indeed any line problem where the internet is currently installed. And we can also check if you can get a free speed bump (profile change), and we can also check if there is a line problem that should be fixed for free, and we can also check if your inside wiring is a problem or not (because Bell can charge you 100$ to fix inside wiring).

All these things can be checked for, but only with the modem line stats at these two test pints indicated here.

It is better to get Bell to fix any possible line issues (the ones that should be fixed for free) before changing internet supplier. Because if you change, these 3rd party resellers will indeed ding you 100$ and Bell is known to charge 3rd parties (as seen in the forums) and not even fixing the problem.

Then once the above is sorted out, change to a 3rd party internet provider and save money and have more B/W usage than Bell.

This topic should be moved to the Canadian Broadband forum where others can help you and maybe one of the 3rd party resellers will be decent enough to give you a test account to see what they see on their end.

BTW, which ISP told you #2? I need to know so I can laugh at them.

4. Finally, no one wants to deal with Bell. NO ONE! I don't think there is am ore hated company in all of Canada. But, it's in your best interest to get the stats (this will arm you) and then fight with Bell for the service you are paying for, then change ISP. Otherwise Bell will just charge you for stuff that should be done for free.

Again, This topic should be moved to the Canadian Broadband forum.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Larhleolynx
said by Larhleolynx:

None of the phone lines on the apartment are actually in-use currently. They're all dead lines, or should be.

Then there's absolutely no way to know what speed or level of service his line is capable of. The only way is to order the service, see how it works, and then fix the wiring problems (if there even are any problems). You might find that it works perfectly!

The presence of DSL service to the other building, or even the same building, should not affect his ability to get DSL.


Right Forum

@videotron.ca
reply to Larhleolynx
Forgot to mention:

How to test at the demarc:
If you look at your last picture you will see 3 jacks on the left of the wires. That is where the unit wiring (or house wiring) plugs into. Find the one (out of the three) that is for the unit that currently has Bell net and Bell phone (you mentioned the other units have no dial tone or something). You can find the correct one simply by unplugging it and plugging in a phone to see if you have dial tone.

This is the one where you will hook the modem up to. Then you log into the modem to get the line stats at that point. Then repeat this inside the unit.

If there is a difference between the demarc stats and inside the unit stats then we can tell if there is an inside wiring problem. And we can also tell from both the stats if there is a line problem outside the building that should be fixed by Bell.

You may want to post here with the modem model you have. Others can help show you how to log into the modem to get the stats.


Right Forum

@videotron.ca
reply to Bob4
said by Bob4:

The presence of DSL service to the other building, or even the same building, should not affect his ability to get DSL.

Is it another building? Maybe I misread. I was under the impression it was the same building but a different unit. In which case what one unit see's "should" be about the same the other will see (if bell doesn't play games with the remotes). If a remote is involved, all bets are off


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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Reviews:
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reply to wrong forum

3. The only thing I could recommend is hooking the modem up to the demarc where the service is currently, go into the modem firmware (I assume this is an old bell 6500 modem?) and get the line stats.

These stats will tell you what the "Attentuation" is, Signal to Noise ratrio ("SNR") is, and what upload and download speeds you have currently (ie. the speed profile Bell has you on).

Record these stats for the demarc.

Then repeat the same test while the modem is plugged in the jack where the Bell service is (the speed profile "should" be the same unless there is a line problem dropping the speed lower than what Bell has set on your line).

After you get the two sets of results paste them in this post so that we can determine if there is indeed any line problem where the internet is currently installed. And we can also check if you can get a free speed bump (profile change), and we can also check if there is a line problem that should be fixed for free, and we can also check if your inside wiring is a problem or not (because Bell can charge you 100$ to fix inside wiring).

All these things can be checked for, but only with the modem line stats at these two test pints indicated here.


How is that going to help the OP when there isn't a provisioned circuit yet?
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


jasmo34

join:2008-03-20
London, ON
reply to Larhleolynx
OK, you don't want Bell, but how about this option...
»accessories.dell.com/sna/product···teSearch

Get the G&G kit, with the highest speed possible, and Bell will do all the wiring 'fixes' necessary.

Then cancel the G&G service (in proper timeframe), and arrange service with someone else, like Start or Teksavvy or EBox.

That kit is sometimes on sale for under $10, but even at $19.99, it gives you 3 months of service.

Read the fine print; check the details; this product changes periodically.


eh

@videotron.ca
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

How is that going to help the OP when there isn't a provisioned circuit yet?

It's the only way to ball park what he will get, since he was already lied to. See:
said by wrong forum :

1. What they likely did was test some customers they have in that postal code/address area for what speeds they have. So this way they can ball-park the figure.

2. Your friend was lied to. Whoever this company was, take them off your list.

Also, it's in his best interest to start the first month of DSL service with Bell so everything can be trouble-shooted in the least amount of time with the least amount of costs to him.

With a reseller/wholesaler in Canada it's a 100$ charge to send a tech out (free with Bell in most cases). Then you have to deal with erroneous charges that never should have been charged to the resellers that get passed onto you. Then any sort of trouble-shooting requiring Bell requires 48-hr notification w/ a reseller before Bell even acknowledges a ticket is opened. And if something happens, which is the norm (ie. a no-show tech), then it's another 48-hr wait time to refile a ticket w/ a reseller to have Bell go your way again and likely charge you again.

That is the nature of DSL in Canada.

The test above will ballpark within a meg of what he should get instead of relying on lying companies.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms

It's the only way to ball park what he will get, since he was already lied to.


I don't think you get it. There is no DSL wired yet. Hooking up a DSL modem won't do a damn bit of good. It won't provide any information until the circuit is wired through a DSLAM.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.

Larhleolynx

join:2012-11-22
Huntsville, ON
reply to Larhleolynx
Hello again folks

I'd like to thank everyone for jumping on this for me.

Nunya is correct, there are two buildings, the business building has the business phone and DSL connection on it, and it has its own drop(I checked today). The apartment building that has 2 units in it has its own drop, into the demarc that I've taken a picture of. Neither of the two apartments have phone or internet currently though the phone lines. So there is no way to check what line quality is I assume?(unless maybe they didn't disconnect them when the previous tenants cancelled their subs?) My major confusion is from the phone support people telling my friend that they could not service his apartment, one due to poor line quality and the other just said they couldn't *shrugs*.

Thank you jasmo34 for your idea. I pointed my friend towards that Grab & Go kit, he said he will look into it and see.

At this point I assume there is nothing I can do as there "seems" to be nothing wrong with the demarc or the lines running into the apartment?

As always I appreciate anyone spending time answering!


eh

@videotron.ca
said by Larhleolynx:

My major confusion is from the phone support people telling my friend that they could not service his apartment, one due to poor line quality and the other just said they couldn't *shrugs*.

It's possible for a few reasons. Bell should be able to answer you.


eh

@videotron.ca
reply to nunya
said by nunya:


It's the only way to ball park what he will get, since he was already lied to.


I don't think you get it. There is no DSL wired yet. Hooking up a DSL modem won't do a damn bit of good. It won't provide any information until the circuit is wired through a DSLAM.

His fathers DSL is right next door from what I understand. Sure it's not 100% accurate. But it gives a ballpark, as stated. It's a whole 10-minute thing to do. Yeah you are right, no two wire pairs are the same, and whatever else. But it's a ballpark.

When you call in to a wholesale ISP to find what speeds you will get, the ISP's do the exact same thing more or less. They check customers in the area near the address and see what they have and ballpark it to you on the phone. Sometimes crap happens. Everyone around you has 5-meg and you end up with 1-meg due to whatever. We aren't going for 100% exactness here. Even Bell couldn't do that themselves.

In regards to the G&G kit, this would be the least expensive route to go. But be aware that you have to cancel it 30 days prior to the end of the promo or you will get dinged an extra month at full price.

So if the kit is for 3 months, you have to go through the work as shown above to get your line fixed up within about 1.5 months then call in to cancel at month 2 (and not one day more or you get dinged for charges). Then you can switch to a wholesaler who offers more.

Larhleolynx

join:2012-11-22
Huntsville, ON
reply to Larhleolynx
Ok thanks a lot. On an unrelated note, I purchased a house back at the beginning of September. The building has 3 demarcs on it, and in the basement about 100 feet of very old phone cable, and I think what is called a party line box, all of which was disconnected and just hanging out so I took it down. Plus a splitter from the draconic age I'm sure. Two of the 3 demarcs outside are completely disconnected from what I can tell, and the one that is active is an older unit with no line jack inside it. I'm a Primus customer, is there a way to get that demarc updated to a line jack model without getting dinged for 100 bucks? Thanks!


hm

@videotron.ca
said by Larhleolynx:

is there a way to get that demarc updated to a line jack model without getting dinged for 100 bucks? Thanks!

Only if you have Bell telephone to my understanding.

CRTC made a ruling that demarcs with a test jack are to be installed so customers can test their lines.

So if you call primus to say you have static on your phone line (land line phone, and assuming Primus resells phone) there should be no 100$ ding.

CRTC stated that Bell is not to charge people for telephone related service calls if the customer does not have a demarc w/ test jack.

So in other words, any and all inside wiring repair is free unless Bell installs a demarc w/ test jack.

Been a couple of rulings on this, follow the links... »New CRTC Demarcation decision


Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada
can the clec do a metallic test on the line or can only bell do this?
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