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plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

[WIN8] Some Observations about Windows 8

I've been doing some testing with Windows 8 Pro x64 on a 2nd hard drive.

So far, I've put together some notes and install steps for myself (67 steps to be exact! ). The reason I have not moved to it yet is I'm still waiting for McAfee to release Patch 3 for Virus Scan Enterprise Version 8.8. From what I have read, that won't be till early Q1 2013.

In any case, I do have a few observations that I wanted to share with the group.

• None of the "Metro Apps" (Weather, Bing, Store, etc) work when you are logged in as the local administrator account. When you try to launch them, you get a nice dialog box telling you that they don't work. You either have to use a different local account, or a Microsoft live account.

• It appears you can only open one instance of the Control Panel at a time. In Windows 7, if I clicked the icon for Control Panel from the start menu, and then clicked on "System and Security", I could go back and click the icon again for Control Panel, and get a new instance. With that instance, I could then click on "Hardware and Sound", and have both open at the same time. If I try to do that in Windows 8, it just takes me to the current window. Does anyone know why it works this way?

• If you create a shortcut to Internet Explorer (target of the shortcut being C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe), and place it on your desktop, it will of course launch IE as one would expect. However, if you place that shortcut into "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs", and then try to launch it from inside of Metro, it will launch IE inside of Metro (not take you back out of Metro, and run it from there). As another test, I created a sub-directory called "Internet Items" at "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs", and put two things in it. A shortcut to Waterfox, and the IE shortcut. Upon launching Metro, the IE shortcut was "removed", leaving just Waterfox under the "Internet Items" heading. However, if I went and looked at the actual directory, the IE shortcut was still there. It appears to me that Windows 8 is converting the IE shortcut to an "App", as it does place a tile for "Internet Explorer" on the left-hand side of the "All Apps" screen in the same place that other Metro Apps would be listed. As with other Apps, you cannot run this from the local administrator account.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed these things or not, which is why I wanted to point them out.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail



Cudni
La Merma - Vigilado
Premium,MVM
join:2003-12-20
Someshire
kudos:13

Maybe your metro apps are blocked by whatever security software your are using as they certainly work under any account

Cudni



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

Click for full size
Main Metro Screen
Click for full size
Launching Travel App
Click for full size
Launching News App
The only security software I have running on Windows 8 is Windows Defender, and I have not made any changes to it.

The above 3 pictures show what I'm talking about. The first is what my main metro screen looks like. As you can see, I'm logged in using the local Administrator account.

The next two show what happens when I try to run the Travel and News App.

The text in the dialog box reads

quote:
This app can't open
News can't be opened using the Built-in Administrator account. Sign in with a different account and try again.

The same is true with the Store app, and Internet Explorer. I don't have them pinned to the main page, but when I go to all apps, and try to click on either one of them, I get the same message.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


Cudni
La Merma - Vigilado
Premium,MVM
join:2003-12-20
Someshire
kudos:13
reply to plencnerb

see
»social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums···4688542e

Cudni



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

Thanks!

I only mentioned it because I did not know if it was by design or not. After reading the page you referenced, I can understand why Microsoft set it up that way, as it would be a security risk for the system.

I enabled the built-in administrator account as that is where I install all my applications. My normal day-to-day tasks are run from a local account, and of course, does not have that problem.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by plencnerb:

I enabled the built-in administrator account as that is where I install all my applications.

Why not just create a user account with admin privileges, and use that to do any admin work? You don't ever need to use the built in Administrator account. Why do people still treat windows like it was windowsXP?
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

Just a force of habit I guess. I've always used the local administrator account to do the initial setup (install drivers, service packs, the first set of applications, modify global settings like power options, and so on.)

Once everything was done, I would then use another local account for my day to day work. While I should probably be running that account as a non-admin, I have not made the switch yet. Nothing stopping me from doing so, just have not done it.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail



RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

• None of the "Metro Apps" (Weather, Bing, Store, etc) work when you are logged in as the local administrator account. When you try to launch them, you get a nice dialog box telling you that they don't work. You either have to use a different local account, or a Microsoft live account.

Of course, Metro apps are sandboxed apps, they should not be run as Administrator. It is as intended for much better security reason.

• It appears you can only open one instance of the Control Panel at a time. In Windows 7, if I clicked the icon for Control Panel from the start menu, and then clicked on "System and Security", I could go back and click the icon again for Control Panel, and get a new instance. With that instance, I could then click on "Hardware and Sound", and have both open at the same time. If I try to do that in Windows 8, it just takes me to the current window. Does anyone know why it works this way?

Strange, it opens a new control panel after I chose System and Security. How do you load the Control Panel? From Start screen? The way I go to Control Panel is RIGHT click the start corner and choose Control Panel when the menu shows up

• If you create a shortcut to Internet Explorer (target of the shortcut being C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe), and place it on your desktop, it will of course launch IE as one would expect. However, if you place that shortcut into "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs", and then try to launch it from inside of Metro, it will launch IE inside of Metro (not take you back out of Metro, and run it from there). As another test, I created a sub-directory called "Internet Items" at "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs", and put two things in it. A shortcut to Waterfox, and the IE shortcut. Upon launching Metro, the IE shortcut was "removed", leaving just Waterfox under the "Internet Items" heading. However, if I went and looked at the actual directory, the IE shortcut was still there. It appears to me that Windows 8 is converting the IE shortcut to an "App", as it does place a tile for "Internet Explorer" on the left-hand side of the "All Apps" screen in the same place that other Metro Apps would be listed. As with other Apps, you cannot run this from the local administrator account.

Go to Internet Option then click on Program Tab and you should see the option there


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

Just a force of habit I guess. I've always used the local administrator account to do the initial setup (install drivers, service packs, the first set of applications, modify global settings like power options, and so on.)

Once everything was done, I would then use another local account for my day to day work. While I should probably be running that account as a non-admin, I have not made the switch yet. Nothing stopping me from doing so, just have not done it.

--Brian

Huh I use a single same account (MS account or local) to install software, drivers, and stuff. It's a waste of time otherwise.


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to RazzyW8

said by RazzyW8 :

Of course, Metro apps are sandboxed apps, they should not be run as Administrator. It is as intended for much better security reason.

Yes, noticed that thanks to Cudni See Profile's link.

said by RazzyW8 :

Strange, it opens a new control panel after I chose System and Security. How do you load the Control Panel? From Start screen? The way I go to Control Panel is RIGHT click the start corner and choose Control Panel when the menu shows up

I did try the method you use to open Control Panel, and I get the same results as you.

I then did some more research on this issue. It appears to be related to how Metro opens applications, and is not limited to Control Panel. I tested this with Waterfox, Notepad, Calculator, and Microsoft Word 2010.

From a shortcut on the desktop, I get the functionally I would expect (can click on the shortcut multiple times resulting in multiple instances of the application running).

However, if I do that from inside of Metro (item pinned to start, or on the "All Apps" screen), the functionally is different. If an application is not running, a new instance will be created. If an application is already running, a new instance won't be created. Instead, focus will be given to the running instance.

I wonder if there is a way to fix that, or if that was by design?

said by RazzyW8 :

Go to Internet Option then click on Program Tab and you should see the option there

That fixed it! I had to modify the options for how IE opens to be "Always in Internet Explorer on the desktop". Once I did that, I could click on the shortcut inside of Metro on the "All Apps" screen, and it then takes me out of Metro, and runs the IE "in desktop mode".

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to RazzyW8

said by RazzyW8 :

said by plencnerb:

Just a force of habit I guess. I've always used the local administrator account to do the initial setup (install drivers, service packs, the first set of applications, modify global settings like power options, and so on.)

Once everything was done, I would then use another local account for my day to day work. While I should probably be running that account as a non-admin, I have not made the switch yet. Nothing stopping me from doing so, just have not done it.

--Brian

Huh I use a single same account (MS account or local) to install software, drivers, and stuff. It's a waste of time otherwise.

+1 Certainly the easiest and most convenient way!


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

I wonder if there is a way to fix that, or if that was by design?

By design. »blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsappdev/a···uot.aspx
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2

I read the link, and I agree with what they are saying for the actual Metro Apps (Travel, Bing, Weather, Sports, and so on).

However, I'm talking about Non-Metro Apps. I installed Microsoft Office 2010, which for me included Word, Excel, and Powerpoint. That is not a Metro App, as it runs in "Desktop" mode.

Take the following example, using Microsoft Word.

In Windows 7, I open an existing word document by double-clicking on the document in the "Documents" Library. After working on the document for 30 minutes or so, I want to work on a new Word Document.

So, I click the start button, and click on the icon for Microsoft Word, and I get a new instance of Word, and a blank document. I then work on that new document, and also edit the 2nd document as well.

However, if I try the same in Windows 8, and try to open word the 2nd time from inside of Metro (as that is where all the icons are located for all installed applications), I won't be able to do that.

Yes, I know I can click on the "New" button inside of Word, and it will open a new document. Yes, I know I can create Icons on my desktop or pin them to the taskbar, and get the results that I want. Its just interesting that Microsoft "took away" functionally so to speak when it comes to launching applications. In Windows 7, it did not matter where you launched Word from (Icon on desktop, pinned to taskbar, icon on start menu, or the EXE directly), the behavior was the same.

Now in Windows 8, if one wants to embrace and use Metro (and not have icons on their desktop, or pinned to the taskbar), the specific functionally that existed in Windows 7 is gone.

Its just interesting that Metro is not able to tell the difference between a metro application, and a non-metro application when it comes to how they are launched.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


RazzyW8

@rr.com
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

said by RazzyW8 :

Of course, Metro apps are sandboxed apps, they should not be run as Administrator. It is as intended for much better security reason.

Yes, noticed that thanks to Cudni See Profile's link.

said by RazzyW8 :

Strange, it opens a new control panel after I chose System and Security. How do you load the Control Panel? From Start screen? The way I go to Control Panel is RIGHT click the start corner and choose Control Panel when the menu shows up

I did try the method you use to open Control Panel, and I get the same results as you.

I then did some more research on this issue. It appears to be related to how Metro opens applications, and is not limited to Control Panel. I tested this with Waterfox, Notepad, Calculator, and Microsoft Word 2010.

From a shortcut on the desktop, I get the functionally I would expect (can click on the shortcut multiple times resulting in multiple instances of the application running).

However, if I do that from inside of Metro (item pinned to start, or on the "All Apps" screen), the functionally is different. If an application is not running, a new instance will be created. If an application is already running, a new instance won't be created. Instead, focus will be given to the running instance.

I wonder if there is a way to fix that, or if that was by design?

said by RazzyW8 :

Go to Internet Option then click on Program Tab and you should see the option there

That fixed it! I had to modify the options for how IE opens to be "Always in Internet Explorer on the desktop". Once I did that, I could click on the shortcut inside of Metro on the "All Apps" screen, and it then takes me out of Metro, and runs the IE "in desktop mode".

--Brian

Hold down shift key and click.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

Its just interesting that Metro is not able to tell the difference between a metro application, and a non-metro application when it comes to how they are launched.

--Brian

You're in an app, and you go back to the start screen to open the app a second time? This is faster than using New in the app?

Metro behavior is to reuse the app even if its a desktop app by default.

To get the behavior you want, right click the icon in Metro, and select "Open new Window"
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to RazzyW8

said by RazzyW8 :

Hold down shift key and click.

Or that
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

You're in an app, and you go back to the start screen to open the app a second time? This is faster than using New in the app?

Metro behavior is to reuse the app even if its a desktop app by default.

To get the behavior you want, right click the icon in Metro, and select "Open new Window"

Its not something I use a lot, and I will switch to use the "New" functionally inside of the app itself. Its not that big of a deal, I just wanted to point out a difference between how the functionally of the "Start Menu" in Windows 7 in reference to icons and launching programs is now different in "Start Screen, AKA Metro" in Windows 8.

Right-clicking on the icon in Metro and then clicking on "Open In New Window" works as it should. Also, RazzyW8's suggestion to "Hold down shift key and click" works just as good.

Thanks for letting me know. I did not know that was one of the many changes that Metro brings. Now I know!

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

Well, Metro (don't call it Metro!) is not Start. If you want desktop behavior, put an icon on your desktop, or pin it to the taskbar.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us



RazzyW8

@rr.com

said by JohnInSJ:

Well, Metro (don't call it Metro!) is not Start. If you want desktop behavior, put an icon on your desktop, or pin it to the taskbar.

What does it say on top left of the "Metro" screen?


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by RazzyW8 :

said by JohnInSJ:

Well, Metro (don't call it Metro!) is not Start. If you want desktop behavior, put an icon on your desktop, or pin it to the taskbar.

What does it say on top left of the "Metro" screen?

It's not a START MENU on the DESKTOP. Sorry for not spelling that out for the obvious impaired.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


RazzyW8

@rr.com

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by plencnerb:

I enabled the built-in administrator account as that is where I install all my applications.

Why not just create a user account with admin privileges, and use that to do any admin work? You don't ever need to use the built in Administrator account. Why do people still treat windows like it was windowsXP?

Who ever used XP like that?


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by DarkLogix:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by plencnerb:

I enabled the built-in administrator account as that is where I install all my applications.

Why not just create a user account with admin privileges, and use that to do any admin work? You don't ever need to use the built in Administrator account. Why do people still treat windows like it was windowsXP?

Who ever used XP like that?

Running as the built-in Admin account? ~ 95%
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to RazzyW8

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

yes, but the Metro behavior is the default behavior for everything you put there. You want it to act like the desktop, you keep it on the desktop.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Freddy
Premium
join:2005-05-17
Arlington, VA
kudos:2
reply to RazzyW8

RazzyW8,

I don't know why Microsoft made Win8 to include icons on the Start screen for installed desktop programs.

Maybe it's done to help people who don't know how to get to their desktop, or don't want to take the time to get to their desktop (get to work fast).

Maybe it's for people who don't know that their programs have icons on the desktop. Maybe it's for cases where installed programs don't put icons on the desktop. Maybe Microsoft is just covering all its bases. Maybe someone can think of other reasons for putting desktop icons on the Start screen.

When I first set up my Win8 system, I thought I'd use the Start screen for all my desktop programs. I thought the Start screen looked nice and was a great change from the traditional desktop.

However, I soon learned that when I launched a desktop program from the Start screen, Windows kicked me to the desktop anyway. Soon, I decided to remove all my desktop program "tiles" from the Start screen and establish them as icons, as usual, on the traditional desktop. That's the way I'm configured now.

I've put traditional icons on the desktop for any and all programs I normally use, or use occasionally. Most installed programs put icons on the desktop anyway. If not, I can always find the installed program or utility or whatever on the hard drive, right click the executable, and select "Send to desktop as an icon," or similar wording. By this approach, I almost never need the Start menu. I don't miss it at all.

I'm leaving the so called Metro tiles on the Start screen and using the Start screen only for those apps. This works for me.

Freddy


SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX
kudos:4

said by Freddy:

However, I soon learned that when I launched a desktop program from the Start screen, Windows kicked me to the desktop anyway.

That freaked me out too. If I'm using Metro there is a reason for it, and I would like to stay there. Why couldn't they just run the program and leave you in the environment you found it in ?


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2
reply to RazzyW8

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

My thoughts exactly. "Metro" is Microsoft's new version of the Start Button. Or, better words would be "Start Screen".

If it was not, there would still be a "start button" in Windows 8, and all the arguments and debates that we have all had for the past 9 months would have been moot!

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2
reply to DarkLogix

said by DarkLogix:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by plencnerb:

I enabled the built-in administrator account as that is where I install all my applications.

Why not just create a user account with admin privileges, and use that to do any admin work? You don't ever need to use the built in Administrator account. Why do people still treat windows like it was windowsXP?

Who ever used XP like that?

At the company I used to work for, we did just that. Our install process for the corporate image involved using the local administrator account to do the following

• Install Drivers
• Install initial set of Hotfixes and any service packs
• Join Machine to the company domain
• Configure OS (set time zone, power options, Internet options, DNS, DHCP, and so on)
• Install Applications

When we moved to Windows 7, we did the same thing, after we enabled the administrator account.

I do it that way at home, as I was the one at my company who worked on the image builds. I liked how well it worked that I just continue to do it that way. Could I have just installed Windows XP (or Vista, or Windows 7, or Windows 8) at home, use the one account that I setup on install, and go from there? Of course I could. I did not really need to go though all the extra steps that I did when I was building a desktop or laptop image for a company. I just do, because I liked how well it worked, I had the process down, so why change?

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to plencnerb

said by plencnerb:

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

My thoughts exactly. "Metro" is Microsoft's new version of the Start Button. Or, better words would be "Start Screen".

If it was not, there would still be a "start button" in Windows 8, and all the arguments and debates that we have all had for the past 9 months would have been moot!

--Brian

who knows the strategy. On RT, there is a desktop but it only works for office (and powershell... which is funny) so everything is in the windows 8 market UI (or whatever its called) - on the non-RT windows 8, you have a mishmash of environments. So sometimes you're in a more RTish world, sometimes not. There is no start button in W8 because Microsoft would like you to get used to metro apps. But there is a lot of legacy apps out there, and a lot of people who really would freak out if the desktop went away. So you have the Frankenstein monster for now. Eventually it will all get sorted out and we will love it. Surely.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:2
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

yes, but the Metro behavior is the default behavior for everything you put there. You want it to act like the desktop, you keep it on the desktop.

That really is what I think we are all trying to figure out here.

We know that there is no longer a "start menu" in Windows 8 that is comparable to the "start menu" in Windows 7, Vista, or XP. Instead we have "Metro / Start Screen".

The way I see that interface, you have two different types of things you can do in there. You can have "Apps" like "Weather, Sports, Stocks, Music, Bing" and so on. All of those came out of the "App Store". The ones that come pre-installed in Windows 8 are probably free from the App Store. Others you have to pay for.

These "Apps" function as "Live Tiles", meaning (at least to me), their icons are not static. They update, showing new information (updated weather forecast, changing sports scores, breaking news items, etc), and they do that without you clicking on them. That is what makes them new and unique. When you do click on them, you get a full screen view of that application. From what I have seen, if you are in the News app, and want to share what you are reading with friends, you can either tie it to the people app, or the e-mail app with a few simple clicks. Its all very cool and the way computing is going (at least from the mobile side of things). I actually like that a lot from a usability standpoint.

THEN you have in this new interface a section that says "All Apps". Clicking on it you get a 2nd screen of "Icons". They are not "live tiles" like on the first screen, as they are all the same square size, and none of them update. You also have things like "Windows Accessories", "Windows Tools", and so on. Basically, any folder and its associated set of Icons from the following two directory locations shows up on this screen

• C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
• C:\Users\xxx\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

(xxx = a specific user account).

This is exactly how the "Start Menu" worked in Windows 7. When you clicked on "All Programs" you got a similar list.

There is nothing stopping you from "Pinning" any item from the 2nd "All Apps" screen to the main screen. This makes getting at your most used applications or items very easy.

Microsoft did not limit what could be displayed inside the new Metro / Start Screen GUI. There is no rule that says "Only Applications downloaded and installed from the Microsoft Store are the only ones that can be displayed and run from inside of this interface". As I said above, if there is a folder or icon in one of those two directory locations, it will show up on the 2nd "All Apps" screen in the new Metro / Start Screen UI.

Because of that, Microsoft SHOULD have been able to figure out what is a "Metro App" and what is not, and code the launching of said app to match it. If not, then maybe they should not have allowed "Non Metro Apps" in there to begin with.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail