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GroovyPhoenx

join:2006-05-22
Gloucester, ON
reply to tcope

Re: New Windows

Tell your dog to stop licking the windows! LMFAO... Sorry couldn't resist!


DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Martinsburg, WV
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Suddenlink
reply to tcope
We replaced 2 sliding glass doors plus all the house windows. They all were ancient aluminum, no safety glass, double pane, nothing.

What we gained was:
1. No more drafts
2. Reduced traffic noise (we lived 1/4 mile from the Washington Beltway, direct line of sight)
3. Sliding glass doors no longer vibrate to Jake-brakes on passing trucks
4. Didn't have to smell the chimney smoke from neighbors wood stoves
5. Reduced heating/cooling bills

That's the order we thought important.
--
Four more years of cronyism, payoffs, bad energy policy and 60's radicals being in charge. Thanks for ruining our country.

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to pike
said by pike:

As usual, lots of advice in this thread with little or no facts to back it up.

First, be sure to contact your local electric utility before contracting for the energy audit. Many utilities actually provide this service for free, or heavily discounted.

Everything in this forum always devolves in to an ROI debate. If you can afford new windows, and you want them, then buy them. Your energy bills may not go down as much as you had hoped (and actually, maybe they will). But it's impossible to quantify the happiness your wife will experience when she's no longer shivering next to those old drafty windows. You will also be raising the resale value of your property.

As usual, lots of iffy advice. Those 'free' utility energy audits are a joke. They don't use thermal or do a blower door. They don't even use IR temp guns. They come in and LOOK with their eyes. If they can find stuff they write it up in the audit report. You may as well just hand them your money since it's no better then just doing stuff at random to improve your place.

ROI is always going to be in these threads as well. Money makes the world go round. Don't expect that to change in your lifetime.


Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium
join:2001-12-30
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to pike
said by pike:

If you can afford new windows, and you want them, then buy them. Your energy bills may not go down as much as you had hoped (and actually, maybe they will). But it's impossible to quantify the happiness your wife will experience when she's no longer shivering next to those old drafty windows. You will also be raising the resale value of your property.

+1

I replaced my 50 year old windows and storm windows a few years ago and the new ones are prettier, stop drafts and keep the house cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter and with the same thermostat settings my utility bills dropped.
--
Another 4 years of Hope and Change.
The rich will still get richer and the poor get an Obamaphone and Food Stamps. lol


RavonTUS

join:2003-10-15
Lafayette, IN
reply to tcope
Greetings,

Yeah, the free home audits are, well, you get what you pay for.

I had one just last week. The local utilities offer it in Indiana. He asked if my 55 year old house had insulation in the wall, no - duh. He found my water heater set a bit high, I like hot water - duh.

Other than that, he just looked around. I guess it would be OK for a first time home owner or someone just wanting a second opinion.

I did get a 3 boxes of light bulbs, 2 shower heads, and 3ft of pipe insulation. Free stuff ya!

-Ravon

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
That 3' of pipe insulation will save you a fortune!

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to RavonTUS
I think this energy inspection is different. It's basically a general contractor who wants work. As I understand it, they really give the home a once over (inspection insulation, windows, doors, testing inside/outside temps, etc.)

A gas company is not going to make repairs... they probably get some incentive just to have someone go out and inspect.

I called the guy yesterday and left him a message to see if he might be able to come out on Friday. He's not called back yet. Nothing turns me off more than sales people no calling back right away. Just sets a bad tone.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to tcope
Well the guy called this evening. I mentioned why I was calling and asked if he might be able to come out. I did not catch exactly what he was saying but thought he said it did not work like that, I'd need to have a meeting first. Perhaps I heard that wrong though. He talked about what they do. They take a thermal image of the home to find issues. They then seal the home. They can insulate, seal up outlets and installing lighting, install windows and doors, wrap the water heater, change light bulbs, etc. He said they install triple pane windows that were some of the most efficient on the market at a fraction of the cost. He said that they _ guarantee_ a 40% reduction in utility costs. I had an issue with this as I don't know how they can make that guarantee without knowing what I spend on my utilities. As I said before I don't heat or cool the house much and live with it. My electric bill is usually around $60 with a high of $100 in the summer and my gas bill is around $20 and $80 in the winter. Cutting 40% off those simply does not seem possible.

I then asked if I could only have certain things done. He seemed to stumble but stated that they could but then they could not guarantee the 40% savings. I said it sounded like they wanted to do everything... even if it was not needed and perhaps I'd save money but it would end up costing me a lot more. He never really answered that question but did confirm that I could have somethings done and not others if this was what I wanted.

I got the impression that they don't want to invest there resources unless a person seemed serious about doing everything they thought was needed. I can understand that. But I'm betting they want to wrap my water heater. Its in my basement. I hold my hand against it and it's not even warm (house is 63 degrees). I have a feeling that they are going to want to charge me an arm and a leg to wrap it... just to make money. Changing my light bulbs? Come on... I already use some florescent bulbs but not in many areas as they take too long to get to full brightness. I don't need someone else to change my light bulbs... I can do that.

I still set up an appointment for this Friday. He said it will take about 30 minutes. I figure I'll see what he reports and listen to what he says. But I think I also want to have another window/door company come in and get a bid from them.

Oh, he said that they use triple pane windows. I read up on double and triple and from what I could tell, most sites said triple is of course better but they are 10%-15% more expensive. So I was siding with just using double pane.

He did also mention that some rebates/incentives ended in 2012.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by tcope:

He did also mention that some rebates/incentives ended in 2012.

I'd get them to give you that info in writing. There is no federal stuff so it would have to be state or local utility stuff. Most of those aren't expiring in 2012 they are an ongoing program that might change a little each year but the rebates/incentives are there year to year. It sounds like a way to put you under the gun to sign up and get work done yesterday. I wouldn't really trust anything about this company from the free audit to the actual work given what you've said about them in the thread.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!

Jacob Henry

join:2012-11-30
reply to tcope
Sliding windows are available different types of configurations like Single Sliders, Double Sliders, Picture Sliders and Center Sliders and frame systems available with a wide variety of glass packages to meet your design requirements.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to Draiman
Yup, I'm going to ask him what rebates/incentives end on 2012. I spoke to a window company and they tell me that, for the windows, nothing ends in 2012.

I'm also having a window company come out on Saturday to give me a quote and talk to me about the windows. But they don't do doors or insulation. This is the pain I wanted to avoid... I would need to finance the doors and the insulation (if I had someone do the insulation). I'd much prefer to roll it all up into one piece of financing. But I can't do this if different people do the work. But I guess I could always put the doors on a credit card and pay them off withing a month or two and then do the insulation myself.

I'd rather do the insulation myself as the boards installed now are nailed in. I want to screw them in so that they can be removed if needed. Right now I have cable wires running on the outside of the boards. I'd like to drill some small holes in the joists and move the cable lines on the inside of the boards.


Nick_L
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to tcope
There are plusses and minuses to everything, so just to throw out a few comments to help you make a decision:

10 year old (or similar aged) windows will not help your equity much. In home sales there are New windows, then there is everything else.

There are several studies that show that rehabbing existing windows will net almost the same energy savings as new windows, at a small fraction of the cost.

Sometimes replacement windows are easy to install, sometimes it is a mess for the homeowner. Those tiled window stools (sills) may make it a big pain for you.

Replacement parts (such as new torsion closers) are readily available online an locally in bigger cities. The same with the weather stripping. It most likely just slips into a channel in the window sash/frame. You may even find it at the big box stores.

Don't forget to use the "lock". Many people don't realize it, but the real purpose of the "lock" (it's hard to really lock something that is 96% glass) is to bring the two sections of glass together to form a tighter seal against air infiltration.

I'm not sure if you metioned what material the windows were made of but generally metal windows were/are a bad idea, heat transmission wise. Doubly so with aluminum. It might be worth it to upgrade for that reason.

New windows are almost always more attractive (assuming we aren't talking about historic windows).

New windows will generally have a better (read: more efficient) glass "sandwich" than older windows. The amount of money that might save you will vary based on your circumstances.


BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
reply to tcope
I'm in the same boat right now, home built in 1978, original windows, single pane aluminum. My main objective is sound reduction.


Red_Menace
poking around since 1978

join:2001-11-03
Littleton, CO
reply to tcope
They are probably talking about the federal tax incentives that expired at the end of 2011.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to tcope
Well, he first guy came buy and explained everything about the energy efficiency "program" that they offer. I tend to agree with his statement that windows account for very little utility savings. He said this is why they started their program. They do a thermal image of the home and testing. They increase attic insulation to 20". They seal all fixtures that lead to the attic, insulation in the outlets and switches, lots of different things. In doing this they guarantee a 40% savings in utilities. I still don't see how they could guarantee this as every home and every condition would be different.

They replace the windows with triple pane but even he says that this only amounts to a low percentage of savings.

The cost to do the entire home would be $25k. If I signed this evening (I did not), they would discount it 35% to $16k. If I jusy have the windows done it's about $10k.

Since there was such a difference in savings from just the windows at $10k to doing the "program", the utility savings would easily offset the additional $6k.

I have a window guy coming in on Saturday. They only do double pane windows. He told me today that he does not think the rebates given by the gas and electric company will expire this year (the first guy said that they would and he says website info is out there stating it ends 12/2012).

Think I did not like about doing the "program"... we never talked about the _type_ of windows I want. I guess it's one choice and only one choice. I certainly would like to know _exactly_ what I'm buying before I got it. I did not like that he could quote me a price without knowing exactly what they would be doing. The 35% "discount" scared me a little. Obviously that is a market up as they could not afford to loose that amount. That is a pretty big mark up.

He also spent a lot of time hiding the cost in the form of payments less utility savings (such as taking the monthly cost over 20 years, subtracting the "40% savings" and giving me my months cost based on that. They also offered all kinds of weird incentives such as $1000 in food, 1 free trip, etc (I know all of that really costs in some way).

The window guy comes Saturday and I'll see what he has to say. I don't think I want to spend $25k or $16k. From what I understand, new windows should run around $8k. I think I might do the insulation on my own or perhaps even hire a handy man person who'd probably cost me about $300 plus materials (around $500).

I also want thinks like tinting on my front windows (I have it now) and don't know if the "program" company even does stuff like this. They seemed solely interested in doing their "program".

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to tcope
So the 2nd guy came out from a window company. _Really_ liked what this guy had to say. He was very helpful in doing things such as giving me his thoughts on colors, recommendations (pro/cons) on going with different models/types of windows, etc.

His price was $8,000 which I felt was very reasonable.

I asked about double vs triple pane. He said about the only time they sell a triple pane is to people in the mountains or if someone in a house complains about how cold it is sitting next to a window. They can go with a triple code of Low E and this is about the same (I think this was an upgrade that was free).

I liked that he gave me the pros/cons and/or why some people wanted certain things and others did not. Allowed me to make an informed decision on many things. They do not do doors but he is going to have a guy call me that he knows does good work. I pick out the door and get gets it and installs. I get the hardware myself and he installs that. I like this idea as then I don't need to pay a general... only the person installing the door.

This company _only_ replaces windows in existing homes. They don't do commercial and don't do new windows. They manufacture their own windows so they measure each one down to 1/8" so they fit perfectly.

Oh, and 60 month interest free financing so I'm paying $131/month. No reason to pay more as it's interest free (and I won't have any problem paying that off on 60 months).


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
reply to tcope
That's good news. I hope it works out for you. Let us know after you have them done.


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
reply to tcope
I started replacing my windows (house built 1972) a little more then a year ago. Did ten of them then. I was having vinyl siding put on and wanted to eliminate as much painting as possible. I started with 3 of the 4 sides of my second story. I think new windows would be a fantastic move. The older Windows need to be painted every 5 years and probably re-glazed every 10-15 years. Re-glazing is no fun. You will probably save the price of the new windows in about 15 years, just considering the painting costs. It will also help the resale value or in this day and age, resale ability. We had the contractor for the siding do them, but I wish I had just used Windows World. They would have been about 50 bucks cheaper ea. and a large company would have stood behind them. For everything but sliding doors Windows World charges $189/Window. A builder friend of mine recommends Windows World and used them for his home which part of was built in the early 1800s.
»www.windowworld.com/affordable-r···dows.php



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by Kramer:

I started replacing my windows (house built 1972) a little more then a year ago. Did ten of them then. I was having vinyl siding put on and wanted to eliminate as much painting as possible. I started with 3 of the 4 sides of my second story. I think new windows would be a fantastic move. The older Windows need to be painted every 5 years and probably re-glazed every 10-15 years. Re-glazing is no fun. You will probably save the price of the new windows in about 15 years, just considering the painting costs. It will also help the resale value or in this day and age, resale ability. We had the contractor for the siding do them, but I wish I had just used Windows World. They would have been about 50 bucks cheaper ea. and a large company would have stood behind them. For everything but sliding doors Windows World charges $189/Window. A builder friend of mine recommends Windows World and used them for his home which part of was built in the early 1800s.
»www.windowworld.com/affordable-r···dows.php

The Window World here in Hampton Roads Va claims to guarantee them for life even if your kid throws a baseball through it. Can't verify that though.


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2

1 edit
The builder told me the same thing. You can replace the sashes easily yourself. With the windows I have which aren't from Windows World, they either pivot horizontally for cleaning or with a little more movement come completely out. I think the WW windows are the same.

Edit: Oh yes. Cleaning 2nd and 3rd story Windows can be an expensive proposition for many when they aren't easy to do. Almost all new windows make cleaning quite easy for the owner. I think the energy savings are minor, but all the other savings added to the energy savings are quite consequential.

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
reply to Kramer
The company I went with is local and makes their own windows. They also install them themselves, which I like. They offer a lifetime guarentee (I'm sure only for defects). If any issues, I can just call them to correct. I haver 13 windows (some small, some a little larger) so they are about $500 each installed. This seems a little high but this includes labor and tax. From what friends have mentioned and from what I see online, this is about aveage for vinyl windows. I don't know if there is such thing as a "standard" replacement window... this company builds each one themselves based on actual measurements.

I have 2 windows in my basement that are single pane. I'm sure that cold air was sinking into the window wells and just pouring in threw those windows.

I think my utilities will stay about the same but I think the comfort level will improve. In the summer my electric bill is not more then $120 and usually $60-$80. In the winter my gas bill might go to $80 but is usually around $20. Of course it's normal that I have the AC at 78 in the summer and around 60 in the winter.

The "program" guy that came in was "questioning" my electric bill being at $120. I guess that is because even using that number, his calculations showed it would take 20 years to pay for their cost. He told me he thought my bill was actually probably around $220. . I just could not see paying $25,000 for their "program". I did install CFL in most fixtures (went with a few hybrids), I'm working on replacing two doors and will also insulate the over hang of the first floor.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to tcope
$500 a window is on the high side for normal replacement windows. I installed top of the line Harvey Acoustical windows for about that price. They should be in the $350-400 ballpark. That's out the door prices. Maybe there is some extra labor for the basement windows or something. I'd try to get them down another 10% if nothing else.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
reply to tcope
I paid $500 per Pella windows (E-rated, argon filled, aluminum clad wood) installed so your quote is kinda high for local, vinyl.
(ofcourse, I only had two rooms to remodel so YMMV)

(Op) I dislike vinyl and don't recommend it unless you don't care to live there awhile..
--
Splat

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2
As I understand, vinyl is pretty much the standard now. There is wood and fiberglass but fiberglass is more expensive and wood needs a lot of maintainence.
Expand your moderator at work

tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

Re: New Windows

Recently when it was about 30 degrees outside I shot temps. The wall around the windows were 63 degrees. The windows themselves were 53 degrees and the aluminum frames were 45 degrees. This does not include the cold air leaking in openings as well. I think the new windows will actually make a big difference in my case.

I went with all sliding windows, even in the basement as the R value should be the same. This way they also unlock from the tracks for easy cleaning.

Thing that kills me is that it take "6-8 weeks from start to finish". The guy who came out a few days ago to do the final measurements tells me it would probably be around the end of Jan. before they would be installed. I'd have hoped it would have only been a couple more weeks at the most. But this gives me more time to knock out the nasty tile stools. After they install the windows I'll go in and replace the stools with wood ones.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to tcope
Yea Winter is the worst time to do replacement windows since the lead time is normally double or triple the normal because of increased demand. I prefer to do replacements in the middle of Summer since no one is thinking about them so it moves fast.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to cableties
said by cableties:

I paid $500 per Pella windows (E-rated, argon filled, aluminum clad wood) installed so your quote is kinda high for local, vinyl.
(ofcourse, I only had two rooms to remodel so YMMV)

(Op) I dislike vinyl and don't recommend it unless you don't care to live there awhile..

That's a great price for Pella windows! They get over $1000 apiece for them around here. Like you I dislike vinyl windows, I think they look cheap and not being able to paint the inside certainly limits your decorating choices!

There is a relatively new material for making windows, cellular PVC. It doesn't rot or deteriorate like wood but it can be painted easily unlike vinyl. Another advantage for manufacturers is that the same tools used for manufacturing wood windows can be used for it. Pricing is more than vinyl but less than fiberglass. We've had them about a year and are very very satisfied!

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to tcope
Our house in So Central Texas has double-pane, gas-filled, aluminum single-hung windows throughout, and several of them have leaked such that they've fogged between panes. Naturally, these are in the fixed panes which would be a b*tch to get out owing to the fact that they are rocked-in (masonry-surrounded). A builder I talked to about these said that replacing them was a matter of actually cutting the old window out of its original metal frame (which of course was nailed to the 2x6 stud walls, then taped-around, and finally a rock wall was set around them).

Does anyone know about this process? I'm curious as to how it's done, e.g. do they just use a recip saw, or maybe an angle grinder to cut-out the old windows, then how to insert/secure the new? Can't seem to find any discussions/pics of this online anywhere.

I also want opinions on the value of gas-filled windows; every gas-filled window home I've ever lived in has suffered failures re: fogging eventually.