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Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

Is Haswell the Last Interchangeable Intel Client Processor?

quote:
The processor-motherboard combination as PC enthusiasts know it could end, with Intel LGA1150 processors under the "Haswell" micro-architecture, likely to becoming the last client processors to ship in the retail channel (processor-in-box). Future Intel client processors, codenamed "Broadwell" could ship only in BGA (ball-grid array) packages, with existing motherboard vendors selling their products with processors permanently soldered onto them. The information comes from Japanese PC Watch, which cites sources in the PC industry.
»www.techpowerup.com/176133/Is-Ha···or-.html

Chrno

join:2003-12-11

This can get very messy with all the different SKUs from Intel and the mainboard manufacturers. There can be a lot of subSKUs for a single mainboard model. Would make sense if Intel were to reduce the number of SKUs to say 1 or 2 processors for the i3, i5 and i7.

On the bright side, no more bent pins. You have no idea how many bent pin cases we have to deal with.



signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
reply to Octavean

This sucks. It will force people to buy high end processors with high end boards, instead of having an upgrade path. This is like MS's bone headed moves with Win8.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

This reminds me a little of the Intel Next Unit of Computing (NUC) approach.

»www.legitreviews.com/article/2083/1/

To be perfectly honest I don’t much like the idea of it but people had to know that changes were abound when the industry started to trend towards mobile computing. Before long we may be lucky to have any desktop options at all or will have to pay handsomely for it.

The last few systems I built for myself were based on new motherboard and CPU combos. It didn’t bother me that Intel kept changing the number of pins for the socket because I always bought the pair (motherboard / CPU). Not one of my recent systems have had a CPU upgrade ranging from Core 2 Quad Q6600, Core i7 920, Core i7 860, Core i5 2500K and Core i7 3930K.

I would have a little less of a problem with it if it were like the K series whereby you pay a little more to get the “option”. In this case the option would be of having the CPU and motherboard separate.

I don't see the point in bringing Windows 8 in this because it seems totally unrelated to me other then possibly the trend to mobile computing,.....

I can tell you this though, I wanted to see the industry continue in a CPU megahertz race (initially) rather then adding more cores / threads. AMD won me over with their Athlon 64 X2 series though. The industry doesn’t always go in the direction we would like to see it go in but that doesn’t necessarily mean we wont be pleased with the outcome over time.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to Octavean

Intel can do that, but will the mobo manufacturer go along with it?



pnjunction
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Toronto, ON
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I wonder if Intel will move to take over motherboards like they did chipsets.



CylonRed
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join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to me1212

said by me1212:

Intel can do that, but will the mobo manufacturer go along with it?

They don't have any other choice do they?

MB manufacturer - "We refuse to do this."

Intel " We will either do it ourselves or find manufactures that will."

Intel is far bigger than any MB manufacturer...
--
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"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain


koitsu
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join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
reply to Octavean

Friend of mine gave me this news item as well:

»semiaccurate.com/2012/11/26/inte···with-it/



PhoenixDown
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Reviews:
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reply to Octavean

On the one hand, I can't say I am surprised but on the other -- there is a definite market for people looking for people wanting to build their own systems, I guess its just not a big enough for Intel to really care about at the end of the day.

I guess AMD could try and make a come back by filling that void. Either that or maybe we'll see enthusiasts move lock stock and barrel to ARM processors.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to CylonRed

True, but if enough do it intel may think twice. But I think I recall seeing that the highend stuff will still remain the same for a while.

Honestly as long as they dont remove overclocking I wont be too bothered. Still, really makes me consider AMD.



El Quintron
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reply to Octavean

This came up in the Gaming Tech thread as well; looks like some of it got lost in translation:

»hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1···39357539

In a nutshell; broadwell is going to be notebook/tablet only and higher clocked Haswells are coming during the Broadwell era.

Not really sure who to believe at this point.
--
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me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Oh, is that all? I guess thats not so bad. Broadwell is just the die shrink for haswell, so no big loss IF thats really all it is.



El Quintron
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said by me1212:

Oh, is that all? I guess thats not so bad. Broadwell is just the die shrink for haswell, so no big loss IF thats really all it is.

I'm hoping that was the case, I was really annoyed when I started reading about this in gaming tech.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Me too. Really I'm not surprised. With as little was improved from sandy > ivy(other than pcie 3.0) if haswell > broadwell is like that(I expect it to be even less, plus both with have pcie 3.0) then yeah desktops not getting broadwell is not big deal.

Plus maybe amd will finally do something right in 2014, a pipe dream I know.



signmeuptoo
Bless you Howie
Premium
join:2001-11-22
NanoParticle
kudos:5
reply to Octavean

Well I have to say, my case is a bit of a challenge. When I build a system, I do what we often advise people to NOT do, and that is build piecemeal as I get the case to do so. I have NEVER bought a complete system's worth of parts for myself, ever. I've always bought the CPU at a different time from the mainboard. Just reality, and because I go from crises to crises (some involving my loved ones), and simply cannot save up, I can only spend like a French hooker, when I've got it before I lose it... Mind you, I'm still on a Phenom II whereas many of you have nice Intel setups. Please don't take this as me complaining, because quite frankly, my system does most of what I need it to. Really for me, more power would simply be good as far as BOINC and F@H. I just hope that this doesn't mean overall higher prices.

OTOH, troubleshooting will be much simpler, if it ain't RAM or SMPS, send the board in!

The companies that make the equipment to repair system boards will profit from this move.
--
Join Teams Helix and Discovery. Rest in Peace, Leonard David Smith, my best friend, you are missed badly! Rest in peace, Pop, glad our last years were good. Please pray for Colin, he has ependymoma, a brain cancer, donate to a children's Hospital.



Cthen

join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

This came up in the Gaming Tech thread as well; looks like some of it got lost in translation:

»hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1···39357539

In a nutshell; broadwell is going to be notebook/tablet only and higher clocked Haswells are coming during the Broadwell era.

Not really sure who to believe at this point.

Not sure what to believe either as this one has come across the Gaming Tech thread as well:

»www.neowin.net/news/intel-broadw···-chipset
--
"I like to refer to myself as an Adult Film Efficienato." - Stuart Bondek


ccallana
Huh?
Premium,VIP
join:2000-08-03
Folsom, CA
reply to Octavean

There are sockets out there that can handle BGA packages, although they are *really* expensive.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out though....



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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That would really suck. While CPU upgrade may not be as common as it used to be, the last new system I bought from Dell came with a cheap dual core Pentium (D925?) while the optional core 2 quad would've more than doubled the price. Just looked on eBay, and the Q6600/6700 CPUs are priced very reasonably, and one of them should roughly double the performance of that system. (SC440)
--
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Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
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join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Octavean

Having thought about this for a while, my reaction is "nice try, AMD."



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Octavean

quote:
Intel to Provide Socketed CPUs for "The Foreseeable Future"

Provided Intel's idea of the "foreseeable future" doesn't end at 2014, PC enthusiasts can breathe a sigh of relief as it came out with a statement saying it is committed to socketed CPU platforms. "Intel remains committed to the growing desktop enthusiast and channel markets, and will continue to offer socketed parts in the LGA package for the foreseeable future for our customers and the Enthusiast DIY market," said Intel spokesperson Daniel Snyder, adding "However, Intel cannot comment on specific long-term product roadmap plans at this time, but will disclose more details later per our normal communication process."

»www.techpowerup.com/176721/Intel···ot-.html

Aranarth

join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI
Reviews:
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reply to Octavean

Some of you probably don't remember this but BGA and other similar surface mount packages have been used in the past by both intel and AMD.

Back in the 486 and late 386 era they were taking cpu's meant for laptops which were surface mount and then mating them with a board to give you a pins and using that in regular main boards. The reason for this was that the laptop cpu's were lower power and cheaper than the regular desktop processors. Companies that were making laptops and desktops could then place a single order for cpu's and get a nice discount.

While timing are much closer these days than back then there is really nothing to say they could not do this again. You would of course need an adapter to make sure that heat sinks mated properly with it but that is just a bit of design and enginering.



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to Octavean


Wouldn't a cpu attached to the motherboard allow for more growth?
To me there would be more benefit from soldered cpu's instead of plug-in. Sure it stops you having options you want to some extent, but there would have to be a general 'low, 'medium' and 'high end' type builds available surely.

To me a good analogy is like the points version of car to electronic fuel injection? Sure the points have benefits for me if I'm a mechanic and if I break down, but the EFI just plain blows away the points in power, efficiency etc. Wouldn't this be a similar trend?

The only concern I can see is it airs that concern for enthusiasts whereby every companies trend is towards tablet type computers - not everyone wants that, me included.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Octavean

I suspect that Intel heard the rampant complaints about their frequent socket changes and they decided to put an end to it once and for all,….

Just kidding,…

However, if I evaluate my past 4 or 5 builds I can say with complete honesty that I haven’t wanted or haven’t bothered to upgrade the CPU. This is one of the reasons I haven’t had an issue with Intel’s sock changes:

Core i7 3930K / Asus P9X79 Deluxe LGA2011
Core i5 2500K / Asus P8P67 Pro LGA1155
Core i7 860 / Asus P7P55D Pro LGA1156
Core i7 920 / Asus P6T Deluxe LGA1366

I have an Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 that had a Gigabyte motherboard that started to malfunction so I replaced it with a cheap Asus LGA775 board.

Statistically I suspect that the vast majority of computers will never receive such an upgrade and for the most part it simply wouldn’t matter.

For what its worth I was considering buying an Intel Next Unit of Computing barebones,..

Still I would like to see Intel keep the LGA socket or something similar around for quite some time.



pnjunction
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join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

Agree although we could still be upgrading CPUs if chipsets were sticking around for a while, the reality (for now) is that each new chipset is bringing architecture changes and features that make a decent case for dropping the old ones.

I was a bit miffed at the fast abandonment of LGA1156 but LGA1155 did have changes to the clocking that removed the ~4 GHz ceiling.

I think the main downside to losing sockets would be repair ability. Our desktops would start looking like laptops were you chuck the whole 'logic board' and replace it if anything goes wrong with either mobo or CPU.

However this would be offset somewhat by the savings from removing the socket, those things are pretty expensive. They can also be a failure point, as we saw a few years with some of them having poor contact and burning out under high load.

My gut feeling is that if this was analyzed with a simple formula like (solder benefit) = (cost of socket)-(prob of failure)*(extra cost of repair)+(prob of socket failure)*(cost of socket failure) the soldered solution might easily come out ahead of the socket on a large scale.

Of course this ignores some things like the the cost of extra SKUs for mobo+CPU combos. In theory if we have M mobos and N CPUs we would have to go from M+N SKUs to M*N SKUs, with the manufacturing to support them). That is assuming we keep the same amount of choices, which is unlikely. Chances are we would lose some, such as the option to stick a higher end CPU in a cheaper motherboard (often a good value choice if you don't need the high end features or overclocking), because companies typically don't see the value in such choices (ie. if they take them away we'll still have to buy whatever they have left...).



El Quintron
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Your analysis is right on the money... my biggest issue with this is that I feel it'll take away motherboard choice (I'm assuming most people will be shopping for a CPU in this case and not a mobo) because I'm assuming the lower end choices won't have extra features that the manufacturer feels a "value" customer would be looking for.
--
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Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to pnjunction

I think the LGA socket design put the burden of failure on the socket and thus on the motherboard. I suspect motherboard manufacturers disliked this approach but had no real effect on the consumer. For Intel it meant no more bent pins so it was a win-win for them.

This BGA proposition adds a considerable increase in cost with respect to the bill of material (BOM) necessary for any given desktop motherboard.

I agree it would probably effect the variety of motherboards which could make it somewhat difficult for manufacturers to differentiate their products and would limit choice.



pnjunction
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reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

Your analysis is right on the money... my biggest issue with this is that I feel it'll take away motherboard choice (I'm assuming most people will be shopping for a CPU in this case and not a mobo) because I'm assuming the lower end choices won't have extra features that the manufacturer feels a "value" customer would be looking for.

Yeah the sad thing is that some choices that have value to the consumer have negative value to the suppliers.

For example sticking a $250 CPU in to a decent quality $100 mobo (because you don't need the features of the $200 mobo) might serve many people well. However if you don't have a choice you might be forced to buy a $450 combo. Actually a win for the seller...


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to pnjunction

said by pnjunction:

That is assuming we keep the same amount of choices, which is unlikely. Chances are we would lose some, such as the option to stick a higher end CPU in a cheaper motherboard (often a good value choice if you don't need the high end features or overclocking), because companies typically don't see the value in such choices (ie. if they take them away we'll still have to buy whatever they have left...).

After reading this and subsequent replies it seems the value in present selections will be affected in the new format. Very good point you have made. If there is a low end board matched to a high end cpu it will be more because of the seller skimping on a quality board to hope make some extra profit.

said by pnjunction:

For example sticking a $250 CPU in to a decent quality $100 mobo (because you don't need the features of the $200 mobo) might serve many people well. However if you don't have a choice you might be forced to buy a $450 combo. Actually a win for the seller...

That sort of estimate on the value, dollar wise, does help put a perspective on the subject. You can almost envisage the cpu's that over clock will not be on a general purpose build unless via OEM. You could almost see the same motherboard for mid and high range and just a simple bios difference to enable extra features of the motherboard (except for the really serious high end options). They are doing this to some extent already.

Having 3 x motherboards instead of 5 to select from with a manufacturer will bring down costs for the supply and theory would suggest we end up with better quality selections due to the extra cash from manufacture for R&D; however you rarely see this bonus from a deal like this end up in the buyers hands, it is sucked up in covering share holders.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



Anonymous_
Anonymous
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reply to Octavean

said by Octavean:

quote:
The processor-motherboard combination as PC enthusiasts know it could end, with Intel LGA1150 processors under the "Haswell" micro-architecture, likely to becoming the last client processors to ship in the retail channel (processor-in-box). Future Intel client processors, codenamed "Broadwell" could ship only in BGA (ball-grid array) packages, with existing motherboard vendors selling their products with processors permanently soldered onto them. The information comes from Japanese PC Watch, which cites sources in the PC industry.
»www.techpowerup.com/176133/Is-Ha···or-.html

BGA sucks

just ask any owner with a Nvidia GPU, ATI GPU, PS3 ,xbox 360.

We can only hope the the BGA is made WITH REAL LEAD solder
--
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pnjunction
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join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
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said by Anonymous_:

BGA sucks

just ask any owner with a Nvidia GPU, ATI GPU, PS3 ,xbox 360.

This is an interesting opinion. You've listed some failures, but just what alternatives do you think there are for packaging and soldering chips with 500+ pins?

There are billions of properly designed and mounted BGA chips in the wild right now working perfectly. It is also great for smaller chips such as RAM and NAND, they use it almost exclusively these days.