Topic 'URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP' in forum 'Networking' - dslreports.com

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:51:04 EDT

tomdlgns posted :

said by Jurjen:

It's not our own theatre, so we're not sponsoring that. ;-)

ok, well that changes everything.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:46:08 EDT

Jurjen posted : It's not our own theatre, so we're not sponsoring that. ;-)

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:40:08 EDT

tomdlgns posted :

said by Jurjen:

I know, it's a quite the battle for demands vs. no-budget. However, I can see definitely the point of not wanting to invest thousands of $$$ for only 4 days of use. If anyone knows a company that has such equipment available for short-term rental in Montreal, I'm all ears. As for bringing my own equipment: for a few days I don't mind, especially since I'll be the only one handling it.

for 1 time/4 days, i agree, but won't there be other plays/events at this theater where better internet/wifi/equipment would be beneficial for the guests?

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:34:39 EDT

Jurjen posted : I know, it's a quite the battle for demands vs. no-budget. However, I can see definitely the point of not wanting to invest thousands of $$$ for only 4 days of use. If anyone knows a company that has such equipment available for short-term rental in Montreal, I'm all ears. As for bringing my own equipment: for a few days I don't mind, especially since I'll be the only one handling it.

@Clarknova: thanks, such information is very useful. I do have two old P4 machines laying around and several memory banks to give it at least 2GB. Maybe even more, if it's all compatible. Around the corner from me is a PC dump, so even more parts available if needed.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:18:22 EDT

clarknova posted :

said by Jurjen:

I'll go for a powerful pfSense server. Either I'll sacrifice my own quad-core home server for the event or I'll find a proper other powerful computer/server.

For the record, a 500MHz Geode running pfsense has no trouble doing MLPPP on 8x6 DSL lines. I've done it with a Soekris net5501-70. The only frustration I had with the CPU, frankly, was that the php-based webUI was a little slow. You may find 512MB of RAM on the slim side too (you definitely will want more running squid).

My advice would be to settle for an inexpensive processor and put the savings into a couple GB of RAM.
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db

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 13:51:28 EDT

tomdlgns posted : got it. i know each setup/business is different and what i say next is my opinion.

i have been in your situation many time. we want (or NEED) xyz, but we have no money/no budget/do it with what we have.

unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. i wouldnt have a problem bringing in my own equipment (i run pfsense) if it was a temporary setup, but i would never give it there/leave it (not saying you did/would, just stating that, in general).

good for you for trying to make it work (doing what it takes, that is a sign that you care about making it right). but again, at some point those types of businesses/people need to remove 'there is no money for it' out of their excuse book.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:44:55 EDT

Jurjen posted : To get back to the last questions/remarks:

Yes, the theatre already has a connection for the offices, but it's a 5Mbit/800kbit line, so that'll be maxed out in no-time. Not only frustrating for the school kids, but also for the people in the offices that need internet for work as well. I thought I've already mentioned that internet line. That's why we wanted another line.

We're in Canada, so it's practically a third world country when it comes to internet (especially since I grew up in The Netherlands, where so many people in densely populated places already have FTTH).

I think I'll go for MLPPP (at least 4 lines) through an Indie-ISP next time: no weird load-balancing stuff and saves a lot of money.

I'll go for a powerful pfSense server. Either I'll sacrifice my own quad-core home server for the event or I'll find a proper other powerful computer/server.

Again, as mentioned, no budget for professional equipment (unless it's possible to rent, but unlikely to find that).

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:16:32 EDT

tomdlgns posted : unfortunately i dont have anything to add, but i do have a question for the OP or anyone else that has been in this situation, because i am curious after reading this thread.

does this theater have any re-occurring utility bills? water, gas, electric? i am going to say yes.

this is just my opinion, but with the demand of internet and the fact that alot of stuff is done online, it seems that a place like this should have a business rated internet connection as well as some additional business rated networking equipment.

again, i have never worked in a theater or in that industry, just my opinion.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:23:54 EDT

nonymous posted : I guess I am missing something. This theater does not get used often and or has no permanent internet connection. In the original post you mention around $700 for one weeks worth or internet. Where I am at that would go to at least a few months or some more of a business grade internet or if an SLA was not needed 6 months or more of home/ small business none sla use internet with a very decent speed.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 31 Dec 2012 02:06:23 EDT

chpalmer posted :

quote:
Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to debug everyone's open source solution, but if you have the time to fidget with settings for weeks, then by all means build yourself a franken-router out of a Linux PC.

Good thing pfSense isnt Linux eh?

130 users on wireless, like others have pointed out, can bring you to your knees. Since wireless is FCC part 15, think about this- you test and everything is fine. Until the audience shows up with all their smartphones with the hotspot app turned on.

PfSense does MLPPP really well. And quite easily. Since hopefully the OP will hopefully be given more time the next go round, Im throwing in my recommendation for it.

Go ahead and keep rebooting your cheap dsl routers and cable gateways if you want. At least Im not running to my office in the middle of the night anymore.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 11:26:45 EDT

clarknova posted :

said by imanon :

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to debug everyone's open source solution, but if you have the time to fidget with settings for weeks, then by all means build yourself a franken-router out of a Linux PC.

What does this have to do with anything in the thread so far? Save your FUD, anon.
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Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 00:14:04 EDT

HELLFIRE posted : Thanks for that mike1965. I thought I was forgetting an option there :D

Regards

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:31:43 EDT

anon posted : I would suggest a »www.peplink.com for this - used them in many, many schools.

There are THREE pieces of the pie that are equally important...
1) load balance and fail-over the two ISP connections
2) QoS to prevent any one internal device from chewing up the entire pipe
3) persistent connections, especially for HTTPS sites or applications to prevent disconnects

The peplink has a nice web-based menu to control both of these, and it actually works. Special note is the device must be intelligent enough to route HTTPS traffic to the same ISP every time, or you'll get frustrated by random sign-outs/kick back to the login screen.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or energy to debug everyone's open source solution, but if you have the time to fidget with settings for weeks, then by all means build yourself a franken-router out of a Linux PC.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:38:23 EDT

Aranarth posted : Happens to all the.... HEY LOOK A SHINY THING!

...now where was I...

sorry I lost track of time... TIME... :D

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:09:45 EDT

clarknova posted :

said by Aranarth:

Also note in the subject line that the OP is looking for a load balancing without mlppp which (as you noted) this router does not do.

You're right. I lost track of the original question in all the excitement.
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Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 07:22:03 EDT

Aranarth posted : Actually it is not free.

It does require hardware on hand.
If you don't have anything usable you still have to go out and buy some which would work to more than the cost of that router.

Also note in the subject line that the OP is looking for a load balancing without mlppp which (as you noted) this router does not do.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 01:56:33 EDT

clarknova posted :

said by Aranarth:

can load balance up to FOUR wans. $60 plus shipping.

You can't go wrong at that price.

Except that load balancing isn't MLPPP, although they both have their advantages. Fortunately for the OP, pfsense can do both. And on the topic of price, it's tough (impossible, actually) to beat free.
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Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Sun, 02 Dec 2012 09:29:40 EDT

Aranarth posted : This is what I will be using:
»www.amazon.com/TP-link-TL-R470T-···&sr=1-36

Reviews are generally good. (4.5 stars with 11 reviews) can load balance up to FOUR wans. $60 plus shipping.

You can't go wrong at that price.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 23:46:20 EDT

Jurjen posted : Thanks for all the tips.

The show has been completely cancelled in the end. We're dismantling everything tomorrow. Next week's show will continue though.

The Facebook show will probably be rescheduled for April or May. I'm thinking of exploring the MLPPP options further. Probably 4 lines bound together. It will buy some extra time for getting quotes from third party ISPs as well.

At least know we know what the lines are capable of.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 23:06:22 EDT

mike1965 posted : I have a Draytek 2950 dual wan router for sale in the for sale area of the forums

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:23:41 EDT

HELLFIRE posted :

said by Jurjen:

I've asked for ideas to whomever wanted to share them.

My list of recommended dual WAN devices (in no particular order). Price-wise you should
be able to find this stuff for under $1000CDN.

Sonicwall / Dell 100 / 200 series Netgear SRX 5308  Netgear FVS336GV2 DLINK DSR-500(N) Cisco SA5xx series Cisco RV0xx series Cisco 89x / 181x router Peplink Juniper SSG-5 Zywall USG series

By and large failover dual wan is a nobrainer on this list of gear, but if you want round robin,
you'll have to dig into the specs whether it's supported or not.

Since you're in Canada, you may want to check out directdial.com for gear as well. Bought
a few things from them myself and have had no complaints.

Regards

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:35:12 EDT

Jurjen posted : I installed it as Round Robin.

As for the "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". I don't care, I don't force anybody to reply. I've asked for ideas to whomever wanted to share them.

No budget for 2.5k$ solutions. I've already sponsored all the routers out of my own pocket, because the company originally wanted to rely on the crap that normally comes by default from Bell. I didn't want to rely on a single 2Wire or Sagemcom, so I took on the project. I don't want to focus on what is ideal, I want to focus on how to make it work with the means that I can get. From what Bell suggested in their quote, we're already a huge step forward.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:21:00 EDT

HELLFIRE posted :

said by medbuyer:

said by Jurjen:

Like I mentioned: this is all last-minute troubleshooting, because Bell turns out to be unreliable, even to business clients.

"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part"

Seconded, but I digress...

In any case, when you said you wanted to load balance, what exactly did you have in mind? Round Robin,
failover?

The ultimate in control for multi-wan loadbalancing that I've found to date is kit from www.peplink.com, but
for 130 users based on their recommended model is a $2.5K outlay. If this is only "temporary," not sure if that'll fly...

Regards

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:07:38 EDT

Jurjen posted : The company I'm working for is Tangente. We're performing in the Studio Hydro-Quebec in the Monument-National theatre.

For the record (I checked), it's our 32nd season!

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:02:24 EDT

Bink posted : Blessing in disguise! Now you have time to do proper planning!

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:34:07 EDT

medbuyer posted : curious, what's the theater's name?

and maybe production company?

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:24:54 EDT

Jurjen posted : After all the trouble, the city government decided to evacuate the theatre yesterday afternoon and it will stay like this until further notice. -_-'

Last week there was some maintenance in the sewers, which caused a nasty epoxy smell in the dressing rooms and hallways. For a week city employees were measuring and stating it where safe levels and we weren't supposed to worry (despite several colleagues complaining of head aches and dizziness). Now the complaints finally reached the top of the government and now the levels are suddenly not safe anymore.

We'll see when I can actually see this machine in action...

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:16:43 EDT

clarknova posted : I've never used lightsquid or even looked into it. squid can do caching by itself though.

If you want, you could use firewall rules to completely block everything but http and DNS (or even just facebook and DNS). You may want to consider a limiter with a mask to keep every user to 1/.1 Mbps too, then just use the shaper to prioritize ACK. Do what works for you though.
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db

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:47:23 EDT

Jurjen posted :

said by cdru:

said by Jurjen:

we're having 130 kids over to Facebook at the same time.

What does "to Facebook" to really mean? Unless they are posting videos or a ton of pictures, the upstream bandwidth is fairly trivial for posts or comments. Even Facebook games don't require much bandwidth in the up direction.

We don't intend to transfer videos, mainly text, but also pictures.

A big thanks to clarknova. I got pfsense up and running. I'm not getting into VLANs this time. I have a Gbit NIC for the WAN side (on-board) and added two 100Mbit NICs for the WANs. The routers will be linked together, but if they'll be overcharged, I'll add extra NICs to give dedicated lines to the pfsense machine (but if they can handle Gbit ethernet, I suppose that won't be the bottleneck).

I took the advice of installing Squid, since it seems useful. Lightsquid doesn't want to run properly though. Also punched in some QoS (traffic shaping) to almost complete stop everything except HTTP (ack) and DNS traffic.

Tomorrow morning I'm bringing everything to the theatre, tomorrow night general rehearsal with a smaller audience. Time for the test drive!

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:38:45 EDT

cdru posted :

said by Jurjen:

we're having 130 kids over to Facebook at the same time.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:28:09 EDT

clarknova posted : x86 is a broad category that includes most Intel, AMD and VIA CPUs, so your server is likely supported as well.

You can run pfsense with a single NIC if you set up vlans. I have done a few builds this way, including one with 15 virtual interfaces.

Good job on trying Tomato dual WAN. I love Tomato, although I've never tried the dual WAN build, so I have never recommended it.

In your situation I would recommend that you run a squid proxy to use caching to soften the blow to your internet connection. This can be installed as a packaged on pfsense, or on a separate box if you go with Tomato. I don't know how cacheable facebook is, but with all your uses going to the same site, squid should be able to cache at least some of the graphics.

Next thing you might want to think about is some traffic shaping and prioritizing. Considering all your users will be doing more or less the same thing, a simple setup that prioritizes ACK packets and limits each user to a small share of the bandwidth is probably a good idea.

Lastly, don't worry too much about the naysayers on this board. Many of them are consultants, and they are wise to advise their clients to overplan, but in doing so they sometimes neglect to help the DIYers and the desperate. As a small neighbourhood ISP, I can assure you that oversubscription is a necessary and surprisingly effective bandwidth usage model. Cramming 130 users onto a wireless network with modest bandwidth isn't a walk in the park, but with a bit of ingenuity it doesn't have to be your funeral.
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Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:25:31 EDT

medbuyer posted :

said by Jurjen:

said by medbuyer:

production meeting back 2 months ago? our small school play production took 6 months in planning...

Yes, a school play production. We're a professional company that exists already over 20 years, presenting a new piece every week.

your production director still have you to blame if it fails...its like your skills / ability / flexibility vs his / her stubbornness..

i take it your production director isn't that tech savvy...

i'm wondering too how you presented the technical aspect of your production...did you really think that 16/7 vdsl or two bonded dsl connections would suffice?

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:54:04 EDT

Jurjen posted :

said by medbuyer:

production meeting back 2 months ago? our small school play production took 6 months in planning...

Yes, a school play production. We're a professional company that exists already over 20 years, presenting a new piece every week.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:49:06 EDT

medbuyer posted :

said by Jurjen:

Don't worry, the quote was approved a month ago. The production director didn't want to have an unused internet connection laying around, so insisted on installing at the beginning of the week and dismantling at the end of the week, despite my recommendations. Next time for sure she'll have it installed two weeks in advance (we pay for a full month anyway).

FYI: yes, the first production meeting was about 2 months ago.

Thanks for not adding anything.

apparently your recommendations didn't get heeded and now you're on the end of the stick...

and if it fails, your production director have you to blame...

production meeting back 2 months ago? our small school play production took 6 months in planning...

anyway, I see others have suggested pfsense already which I would have recommended as well or dual wan routers but like what others have told you, 130 will crush all of your short planned production....and yes, even with the combined bandwidth...

my .02 cents...

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:31:23 EDT

Jurjen posted :

said by medbuyer:

Bell isn't unreliable [well, kinda] but it was actually you're lack of planning that lead to your situation...a theater production like that would require months of planning...

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:25:17 EDT

medbuyer posted :

said by Jurjen:

Like I mentioned: this is all last-minute troubleshooting, because Bell turns out to be unreliable, even to business clients.

"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part"

Bell isn't unreliable [well, kinda] but it was actually you're lack of planning that lead to your situation...a theater production like that would require months of planning...

130 kids on facebook is like asking for your connection to be hosed in under a few minutes...

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:17:36 EDT

Jurjen posted : Thanks for the suggestion.

During my search last night I too came across pfsense. Good to know that it only works on x86, I was about to (temporarily) sacrifice my quadcore server. But I have an older x86 lying around. Just need to transfer some parts and search for a third NIC. I'll bring this as a back-up, since I've also found a Tomato dual-WAN firmware to install on a router. I've tried to contact another member who did such a project intended for 25 users + a series of IP cams and other devices to ask for experiences.

Also there's a way to tweak DD-WRT for this, but it seems less reliable. Also there's EzPlanet server, but couldn't find experiences on the web.

I'll see if I can install pfsense then.

Bell does offer MLPPP, but they can't schedule in 24h. LTE wasn't offered through the business department. Like I mentioned: this is all last-minute troubleshooting, because Bell turns out to be unreliable, even to business clients.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Tue, 27 Nov 2012 03:18:47 EDT

clarknova posted : If you have x86 hardware (a spare pc, for example), pop a pfsense cd into it and install it to the hard drive. Load balancing is a bit of work to set up, but it sounds like you're used to that.

»doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Multi-WAN_2.0

Also, there are a few providers in Quebec that do MLPPP. Next time call them first. Fixed wireless may be another option, but not with 24 hours to go.
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Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:30:28 EDT

Bink posted : There are many dual/multi-WAN routers available—both in commercial and open source forms. That said, 130 wireless devices will likely crush your few access points. Good luck with your last minute planning.

Re: URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:29:39 EDT

aguen posted : How the heck are you connecting 130 people to the network? Anyway, unless you know somebody that might "rent/loan" you a dual wan router within your tight time window, you're pretty much hosed.

URGENT: load balancing without MLPPP

Mon, 26 Nov 2012 22:18:52 EDT

Jurjen posted : Hello all!

I'm working for a theatre production and we're having 130 kids over to Facebook at the same time. Specifically for this use, we've ordered a 16/7 business VDSL connection with Bell. At the installation today it turns out we're too far from the SLAM to get any VDSL. We now have 16/0.8 ADSL2+

We we're really fixed on getting more upload (we don't care about the download, because that'll always be bigger), so we're feeling very mistreated.

While trying to resolve the issue, we've talked about fiber optic (not available, the cable in the street got destroyed during road works), about MLPPP (Bell forces us to pay 1000$ on top of the 700$ we already paid for one week of internet) and so far they can't come up with anything more then giving a second DSL line.

Since a second line is better then nothing, we're taking it. But is there any way to load balance it? Like I mentioned, we're not getting MLPPP, so it has to be a different technology. I already have a few access points (WRT610N v2). Furthermore, I have an old WRT54GS that can be converted to any firmware.

Any tips/advices?

To make it more interesting: it needs to be ready before Wednesday afternoon and there is no budget (I can spend a few bucks of my own, but don't push it).

Thanks for your attention!