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JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to RazzyW8

Premium Member

to RazzyW8

Re: [WIN8] Some Observations about Windows 8

said by RazzyW8 :

said by JohnInSJ:

Well, Metro (don't call it Metro!) is not Start. If you want desktop behavior, put an icon on your desktop, or pin it to the taskbar.

What does it say on top left of the "Metro" screen?

It's not a START MENU on the DESKTOP. Sorry for not spelling that out for the obvious impaired.

RazzyW8
@rr.com

RazzyW8

Anon

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

yes, but the Metro behavior is the default behavior for everything you put there. You want it to act like the desktop, you keep it on the desktop.

Freddy
Premium Member
join:2005-05-17
Arlington, VA

Freddy to RazzyW8

Premium Member

to RazzyW8
RazzyW8,

I don't know why Microsoft made Win8 to include icons on the Start screen for installed desktop programs.

Maybe it's done to help people who don't know how to get to their desktop, or don't want to take the time to get to their desktop (get to work fast).

Maybe it's for people who don't know that their programs have icons on the desktop. Maybe it's for cases where installed programs don't put icons on the desktop. Maybe Microsoft is just covering all its bases. Maybe someone can think of other reasons for putting desktop icons on the Start screen.

When I first set up my Win8 system, I thought I'd use the Start screen for all my desktop programs. I thought the Start screen looked nice and was a great change from the traditional desktop.

However, I soon learned that when I launched a desktop program from the Start screen, Windows kicked me to the desktop anyway. Soon, I decided to remove all my desktop program "tiles" from the Start screen and establish them as icons, as usual, on the traditional desktop. That's the way I'm configured now.

I've put traditional icons on the desktop for any and all programs I normally use, or use occasionally. Most installed programs put icons on the desktop anyway. If not, I can always find the installed program or utility or whatever on the hard drive, right click the executable, and select "Send to desktop as an icon," or similar wording. By this approach, I almost never need the Start menu. I don't miss it at all.

I'm leaving the so called Metro tiles on the Start screen and using the Start screen only for those apps. This works for me.

Freddy
SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium Member
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX

SipSizzurp

Premium Member

said by Freddy:

However, I soon learned that when I launched a desktop program from the Start screen, Windows kicked me to the desktop anyway.

That freaked me out too. If I'm using Metro there is a reason for it, and I would like to stay there. Why couldn't they just run the program and leave you in the environment you found it in ?

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb to RazzyW8

Premium Member

to RazzyW8
said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

My thoughts exactly. "Metro" is Microsoft's new version of the Start Button. Or, better words would be "Start Screen".

If it was not, there would still be a "start button" in Windows 8, and all the arguments and debates that we have all had for the past 9 months would have been moot!

--Brian

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

said by plencnerb:

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

My thoughts exactly. "Metro" is Microsoft's new version of the Start Button. Or, better words would be "Start Screen".

If it was not, there would still be a "start button" in Windows 8, and all the arguments and debates that we have all had for the past 9 months would have been moot!

--Brian

who knows the strategy. On RT, there is a desktop but it only works for office (and powershell... which is funny) so everything is in the windows 8 market UI (or whatever its called) - on the non-RT windows 8, you have a mishmash of environments. So sometimes you're in a more RTish world, sometimes not. There is no start button in W8 because Microsoft would like you to get used to metro apps. But there is a lot of legacy apps out there, and a lot of people who really would freak out if the desktop went away. So you have the Frankenstein monster for now. Eventually it will all get sorted out and we will love it. Surely.

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb to JohnInSJ

Premium Member

to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

said by RazzyW8 :

I am sorry but the Start screen IS for the desktop also. Why is it when you install desktop applications it'll put icons on the start screen? Even Microsoft said this.

yes, but the Metro behavior is the default behavior for everything you put there. You want it to act like the desktop, you keep it on the desktop.

That really is what I think we are all trying to figure out here.

We know that there is no longer a "start menu" in Windows 8 that is comparable to the "start menu" in Windows 7, Vista, or XP. Instead we have "Metro / Start Screen".

The way I see that interface, you have two different types of things you can do in there. You can have "Apps" like "Weather, Sports, Stocks, Music, Bing" and so on. All of those came out of the "App Store". The ones that come pre-installed in Windows 8 are probably free from the App Store. Others you have to pay for.

These "Apps" function as "Live Tiles", meaning (at least to me), their icons are not static. They update, showing new information (updated weather forecast, changing sports scores, breaking news items, etc), and they do that without you clicking on them. That is what makes them new and unique. When you do click on them, you get a full screen view of that application. From what I have seen, if you are in the News app, and want to share what you are reading with friends, you can either tie it to the people app, or the e-mail app with a few simple clicks. Its all very cool and the way computing is going (at least from the mobile side of things). I actually like that a lot from a usability standpoint.

THEN you have in this new interface a section that says "All Apps". Clicking on it you get a 2nd screen of "Icons". They are not "live tiles" like on the first screen, as they are all the same square size, and none of them update. You also have things like "Windows Accessories", "Windows Tools", and so on. Basically, any folder and its associated set of Icons from the following two directory locations shows up on this screen

• C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs
• C:\Users\xxx\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

(xxx = a specific user account).

This is exactly how the "Start Menu" worked in Windows 7. When you clicked on "All Programs" you got a similar list.

There is nothing stopping you from "Pinning" any item from the 2nd "All Apps" screen to the main screen. This makes getting at your most used applications or items very easy.

Microsoft did not limit what could be displayed inside the new Metro / Start Screen GUI. There is no rule that says "Only Applications downloaded and installed from the Microsoft Store are the only ones that can be displayed and run from inside of this interface". As I said above, if there is a folder or icon in one of those two directory locations, it will show up on the 2nd "All Apps" screen in the new Metro / Start Screen UI.

Because of that, Microsoft SHOULD have been able to figure out what is a "Metro App" and what is not, and code the launching of said app to match it. If not, then maybe they should not have allowed "Non Metro Apps" in there to begin with.

--Brian
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Freddy

Premium Member

to Freddy
The problem with the icons on the desktop on Win 8 is that they are GIGANTIC and will quickly cover the desktop area. They cannot be made smaller, that I can find...just as I can't make the systray icons tiny or closer together and they sprawl completely across the taskbar... because there is no Item list anymore in Advanced Display Properties. Plus, my little free DeskSweeper program that has worked on all versions of Windows since Windows 95 installs on Win 8 but won't sweep the desktop icons to hide them when I click the desksweeper icon in the systray. That is so sad.

I don't want to look at the icons ...especially not gigantic ones. I only want to see them on the desktop if I need to click on one. Desksweeper also will not shut the computer down for me anymore or reboot it, etc. I am a traditionalist and I don't believe in throwing the baby away with the dirty bathwater which is what Win 8 does and it is completely a NO-NO on a desktop computer. I have no quarrel with Metro on mobile devices but Microsoft should be shot for putting that on desktop computers.

I am already requesting return authorization on the new computer.
Mele20

Mele20 to JohnInSJ

Premium Member

to JohnInSJ
Don't tell me that anyone who values their privacy will "love" getting applications from the Microsoft store! I won't ever get any from there. I set up a LOCAL user account (over Microsoft's protests) when I first turned on the new Win 8 Pro machine. I have NO intention of ever setting up a Microsoft account.

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

mozerd

MVM

said by Mele20:

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

I'd say that you would be better off switching to Linux.

BTW, excellent Video that explains why Windows 8 is like no other.
»[Info] The Story of the Design of Windows 8 by Jensen Harris

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

The problem with the icons on the desktop on Win 8 is that they are GIGANTIC and will quickly cover the desktop area.

So organize them into folders. Hell, call the one on the desktop "Start". Go crazy and pin that one folder to the taskbar. Gee, look, it's like a Start menu.
JohnInSJ

1 recommendation

JohnInSJ to mozerd

Premium Member

to mozerd
said by mozerd:

said by Mele20:

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

I'd say that you would be better off switching to Linux.

Or going off the grid completely.

RazzyW8
@rr.com

RazzyW8 to Mele20

Anon

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Don't tell me that anyone who values their privacy will "love" getting applications from the Microsoft store! I won't ever get any from there. I set up a LOCAL user account (over Microsoft's protests) when I first turned on the new Win 8 Pro machine. I have NO intention of ever setting up a Microsoft account.

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

You disabled Secure Boot? Why? It's a lot more secure that way. If I have an OEM PC I'd leave secure boot enabled. I recommend every customers to have secure boot if the option is available. Only reason why you should disable Secure Boot if you want to install Windows XP/7 or Linux.

Microsoft gave you a choice for Local account, let it be. Most of us wants the use Microsoft accounts for ease of use. I really like the sync part.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to Mele20

Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Don't tell me that anyone who values their privacy will "love" getting applications from the Microsoft store! I won't ever get any from there. I set up a LOCAL user account (over Microsoft's protests) when I first turned on the new Win 8 Pro machine. I have NO intention of ever setting up a Microsoft account.

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

Isn't that a little over-dramatic? MS doesn't protest to using a local account. They simply give you a couple of options and let you choose which one you want.
Glen T
join:2003-11-03
BC

Glen T

Member

said by 67845017:

said by Mele20:

Don't tell me that anyone who values their privacy will "love" getting applications from the Microsoft store! I won't ever get any from there. I set up a LOCAL user account (over Microsoft's protests) when I first turned on the new Win 8 Pro machine. I have NO intention of ever setting up a Microsoft account.

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

Isn't that a little over-dramatic? MS doesn't protest to using a local account. They simply give you a couple of options and let you choose which one you want.

Except that if you choose to have only a local account, you can't access the MS App Store and most of the included MS apps don't work, making the whole Start window concept superfluous.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

1 edit

67845017 (banned)

Member

I understand, but that wasn't my point.

Edit: You can access the App Store to browse. You just can't download.

RazzyW8
@rr.com

RazzyW8 to Glen T

Anon

to Glen T
said by Glen T:

said by 67845017:

said by Mele20:

Don't tell me that anyone who values their privacy will "love" getting applications from the Microsoft store! I won't ever get any from there. I set up a LOCAL user account (over Microsoft's protests) when I first turned on the new Win 8 Pro machine. I have NO intention of ever setting up a Microsoft account.

I have enough problems with disabling secure boot. I don't need anymore booby traps from Microsoft.

Isn't that a little over-dramatic? MS doesn't protest to using a local account. They simply give you a couple of options and let you choose which one you want.

Except that if you choose to have only a local account, you can't access the MS App Store and most of the included MS apps don't work, making the whole Start window concept superfluous.

You can just add a Microsoft account to store only. While being on local account. It's that simple.
SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium Member
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX

SipSizzurp to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

The problem with the icons on the desktop on Win 8 is that they are GIGANTIC and will quickly cover the desktop area. They cannot be made smaller, ...I don't want to look at the icons ...especially not gigantic ones.

Start watching at the 6 minute marker ;

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· DwWeP9MI
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to RazzyW8

Member

to RazzyW8
Yeah, it's really a non-issue. Unless it's made into one.

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb to Glen T

Premium Member

to Glen T
said by Glen T:

Except that if you choose to have only a local account, you can't access the MS App Store and most of the included MS apps don't work, making the whole Start window concept superfluous.

Really? My test system that I setup, with the instructions that I posted above, had no problem clicking on the "Store" Application, and browsing all of the apps currently available.

Not to mention, I was running the Weather, News, and Bing Apps without any problems. I was able to go into them, view different items, and so on. I changed the Weather app to show the weather for at least 3 different locations.

All that done from a LOCAL account on the system.

--Brian
Glen T
join:2003-11-03
BC

Glen T

Member

Cool. Someday, when I get a couple of hours, I'll read through your setup instructions and give it a try. In the meantime, out the box, with a typical user setup, it doesn't work.

RazzyW8
@rr.com

RazzyW8

Anon

said by Glen T:

Cool. Someday, when I get a couple of hours, I'll read through your setup instructions and give it a try. In the meantime, out the box, with a typical user setup, it doesn't work.

It does work.

Kramer
Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA

Kramer to Mele20

Mod

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

The problem with the icons on the desktop on Win 8 is that they are GIGANTIC and will quickly cover the desktop area. and They cannot be made smaller, that I can find...just as I can't make the systray icons tiny or closer together they sprawl completely across the taskbar...

Are you talking about the Desktop or the Metro Tiles? To change the icon sizes on the desktop simply click one and roll the mouse wheel while holding the control key. You pretty much have an infinite size range there. As far as the Systray icons, why not just hide the ones you don't need?

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb to Glen T

Premium Member

to Glen T
said by Glen T:

Cool. Someday, when I get a couple of hours, I'll read through your setup instructions and give it a try. In the meantime, out the box, with a typical user setup, it doesn't work.

As I said, my setup instructions are quite long, and still a work in progress for me. But by all means, feel free to use whatever part of them you want for your own build process. That's why I'm sharing them!

One thing I am trying to figure out if I need is in regards to the IE setting modifications. I primary use Waterfox for my web browser. Since I rarely use IE, why go through the steps to modify an application that I would never use. So, I may take that part out.

--Brian

Freddy
Premium Member
join:2005-05-17
Arlington, VA

Freddy to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
Click for full size
Mele20,

You said, "The problem with the icons on the desktop on Win 8 is that they are GIGANTIC and will quickly cover the desktop area."

Are you referring to the "desktop" or to the "Start" screen? Above is a picture of my "desktop." The icons are the same size as those on prior Windows systems. The "Tiles" on the "Start" screen are larger.

Freddy

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb

Premium Member

Freddy,

Since Mele20 lives in Hawaii, they won't answer for quite a number of hours. But, I did want to make a comment about screen size that I believe applies to them.

In all of the threads that I have read, I seem to recall that the user runs a very low end resolution (like 1024 x 768, or 800 x 600). I know in my case on Windows 7, my resolution is 1680 x 1050, and when I was testing Windows 8 (on the same hardware), I was running at 1920 x 1080 without any problems.

So, that may be why the icons look "Gigantic" on the desktop, as they are running a very low resolution.

This would also put some reasoning behind the very tiny icons on the taskbar. At that low of a resolution, and with that many icons, they would probably be two or three rows across the bottom of the entire screen if modifications were not made to the icons themselves. To fix that problem in previous versions of the OS, the user modified the icon size and spacing.

This brings me to a question, that of course only Mele20 can answer. Maybe its time to run at "native" resolution (or one closer up then they are now), and see how things look. If things are good, then problem solved. If not, figure out what changes need to be made. I know things have changed as far as what one can change (text size, icon size, spacing, etc) over the course of the versions of Windows, but I wonder if it would be easier to approach it from that way.

--Brian
codydog
join:2001-11-29
Newport, RI

codydog

Member

This may well be the dumbest question, but I am on win7 pro, will upgrading to win8 pro, decrease my latency? This pc has plenty of punch and the Upgrade Ass't says I am all set to upgrade, but would prefer not to learn a new windows just yet. I am running on fios too.

Basically looking to speed up from when I hit a key here to when it hits a server in Chicago.

Thanks

Freddy
Premium Member
join:2005-05-17
Arlington, VA

Freddy to plencnerb

Premium Member

to plencnerb
Ah, resolution. That could explain the problem. I'm using 1920 x 1080, so I actually need to increase the size of images to make viewing easier.

Good point. I didn't think of that.

Freddy
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to Glen T

Member

to Glen T
said by Glen T:

Cool. Someday, when I get a couple of hours, I'll read through your setup instructions and give it a try. In the meantime, out the box, with a typical user setup, it doesn't work for me.

FIFY