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TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
reply to CGMason14

Re: Verizon is using Sandy as an excuse to force people to FiOS

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.



nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:16
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by TBBroadband:

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.

100% false. FiOS dial tone for copper elimination customers is still 100% regulated POTS service....


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma

said by nycdave:

said by TBBroadband:

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.

100% false. FiOS dial tone for copper elimination customers is still 100% regulated POTS service....

Whether it's regulated or it isn't, Verizon High Service Level remains the same there is no change.

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
reply to nycdave

and in the areas they build out with Fiber- the service is unregulated. by using a fiber backhaul still isn't FiOS- it's the way most areas are still. Hell- AT&T does just that and guess what- its a digital phone product off the VARDs.



alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

said by nothing00:

And Verizon gets to shift a huge amount of their electric bill to the end user! No more paying for the electricity costs to support the network. Every user now gets to power their own ONT.

Totally selfless move by Verizon.

Wow.. That's the best argument against FiOS I've seen yet. You really have Verizon all figured out. Spend billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades to save pennies on their electricity bills.

Come on Man! Don't you guys know how a Central Office works. There is Talk Battery on Copper Lines, a -48V powered by Batteries on an AC Float System, but there is no saving from the Power Company, a Fiber Network still needs Power. The ONT needs AC Power, more than the C.O. could accommodate.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

Wow.. That's the best argument against FiOS I've seen yet. You really have Verizon all figured out. Spend billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades to save pennies on their electricity bills.

They should keep repairing 50-100 year old lines.. or you could, you know, use one less lightbulb somewhere in your house, but you're right. That would totally be screwing you over.

I'm all for FIOS, have it myself and love it. But there's a scale, efficiency and moving responsibility of power and maintenance to the user that people frequently dismiss - like you did. "Gee, it's only 30-watts!" Well, gee, it's only a $3.99 bogus line fee on your bill too. Multiply that by millions of customers and soon you're talking real money. It's the 30 watt bulb that always on. The ONT doesn't even qualify as a vampire device since it is always on and never in a power saving state. (Well, that I've noticed anyway.)

In any case, energy wise, FiOS is far less efficient for providing voice phone service to homes when it comes to power. It's much more efficient to keep lines energized in a limited number of locations than it is to distribute mini (and far less robust - 8 hours tops) backups all over the place. And have the customer maintenance the backup too. I'm sure Verizon will see significant drops in the power required to run this system when consumers foot the electric bill for most of the network. Long term, that's part of the reason it's more efficient [for them]. These are the gifts that keep giving once the buildout is complete.

And yes - I do believe that they should be repairing and replacing copper until there's something else that's AS RELIABLE in EMERGENCY situations as copper is. The whole point of regulations requiring high availability service was for safety of life, not because I was without power for two days, felt lonely and wanted to chat with g-ma. It's because I was without power for two days and my idiot neighbor was using candles for light and NOW THEIR HOUSE IS BURNING. And Verizon has neatly escaped this with FiOS. They've basically said, "we're no longer responsible for providing reliable phone service".

I think FiOS is a GREAT product. Suggesting that it replaces POTS is a bridge too far. We don't have anything nearly as reliable that provides safety of life service.

However, in the aftermath of Sandy people have noticed and are considering performance standards for wireless, etc.

So no, I don't think Verizon is screwing people for requiring some equipment in the home to use the Internet or watch TV. But to suggest that it's a nice and neat replacement for POTS is incredibly unnerving.


HD_Ride
Premium
join:2000-10-18
Jerseyastan
reply to CGMason14

said by CGMason14:

The funny thing is the letter claimed that fiber optics were more reliable during storms! They kind of left out the part that the ONT requires power and only has an eight hour battery backup.

as you know if it is an aerial install storms don’t discriminate, it will be taken out just like anything else in the storm’s path.


PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00

So you believe that Verizon should rebuild BOTH the copper and FiOS plant in areas that it was wiped out?
And if you believe that FiOS should be made as reliable POTS ? Many could argue that that except for the power limitation, FiOS is FAR more reliable than copper.
--
“My horse fights with me and fasts with me because if he is to carry me into battle, he must know my heart and I must know his or we shall never become brothers.
-Plenty Coups, Chief of the Crow”



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to CGMason14

nothing00:

a) Almost everyone who still has a home phone uses a cordless phone. Not many people with old school phones that don't require an outlet for power.

b) You are forgetting that POTS isn't always a pure 100% copper run from the CO. A lot of places, including my house, are mostly fiber (non-fios) and have been for decades. The only "copper" for many of us is the line running down the block and into our house.

c) FIOS (regulated voice or "voip") is far far far far far more reliable in my opinion. I am sure if you ask any tech, they will tell you the same thing.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to PoloDude

said by PoloDude:

So you believe that Verizon should rebuild BOTH the copper and FiOS plant in areas that it was wiped out?

I believe there should be something as reliable as POTS. Be it POTS itself or ...?

said by PoloDude:

And if you believe that FiOS should be made as reliable POTS ? Many could argue that that except for the power limitation, FiOS is FAR more reliable than copper.

This sounds right. It's probably the power limitation that's holding FiOS back from being a suitable replacement.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

2 edits
reply to PhoenixDown

said by PhoenixDown:

nothing00:

a) Almost everyone who still has a home phone uses a cordless phone. Not many people with old school phones that don't require an outlet for power.

Search Amazon for "corded phone". Still plenty of them old school phones being made and purchased.

I'm sure almost everyone does have a cordless phone. Lots of cordless phones have battery backups to help in this situation (but still runs into the limited battery life problem). Regardless of the cordless phone issue I do know of many people who have corded phones specifically because they want a phone that works when the power goes out. (While I do have one of those phones, I don't have POTS so I'm at the mercy of my battery backups.)

said by PhoenixDown:

b) You are forgetting that POTS isn't always a pure 100% copper run from the CO. A lot of places, including my house, are mostly fiber (non-fios) and have been for decades. The only "copper" for many of us is the line running down the block and into our house.

Not really forgetting, just being imprecise. The non-"copper" POTS service still had the same regulatory backup power and availability requirements.

said by PhoenixDown:

c) FIOS (regulated voice or "voip") is far far far far far more reliable in my opinion. I am sure if you ask any tech, they will tell you the same thing.

Sure, now it is. It's a brand new, just installed network designed to last decades. Let's see how it looks after 40 years of use and 20 additional years of neglect.

By virtue of fiber being non-reactive, not subject to electronic interference, corrosion, longer reach and more it'll end up being less costly for Verizon to maintain. (And more expensive for the customer in energy and replacing millions of batteries every year.) Those virtues don't make it more reliable. They make it less costly to maintain a particular service level.

And of course in a power outage FiOS is only as reliable (or predictably unreliable) as your battery backup.

FiOS regulated voice is a pure bait and switch. It's VOIP with a different bill and no service availability requirements.


Eddy120876

join:2009-02-16
Bronx, NY
reply to CGMason14

Hell if thats the case then bring it to the fordham area...I know Sandy will finally do something right by me



kuja

@50.121.177.x
reply to CGMason14

Not everyone keeps their pots service during a power outage. The second my power goes out I lose my dsl because there is no generator at my R/T. Within a day or so the backup battery at the R/T goes dead and my phone is gone until frontier takes the time to bring up a generator. This is considering in my area when the power goes out it's not for 1 or 2 days. It usually out for a minimum of 1 week (Mostly from snow storms cause our local power company doesn't believe in spending money to keep the trees trimmed)


chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink
reply to CGMason14

Yeah my grandma only needs POTS. She doesnt care about TV, or Internet. But where does she live? Blocks away from the beach in south jersey. POTS means nothing for reliability if the Central Office or house is under water.

Even here in FL with the storms, lightning, hurricane I can confidently say ive never had power outages lasting over 4 hrs or however long the battery lasts. And if there was it was during a mandatory evacuation.

As for fiber lasting 40+ yrs. Who knows. We will probably have something better assuming people don't cling to obsolete technology.

You do realize that a Central Office has batteries and generators? So do large businesses and enterprises. By all means go back to the day of horses and candles if u wish. if you are that concerned about the batteries and extra power theres more to worry about than the ONT battery. A damn car engine has a MAXIMUM efficiency of 30%. 70% is just loss. The internal combustion engine thats now about 100+ yrs old hasnt really advanced. Yet you want to make a big fuss about some batteries for the ONT that can do 300Mb / 65Mb bandwidth available from Verizon today. XG-PON Fiber from Verizon already tested at 10Gb a sec.

Computers, electronics, and communications have advanced at nearly an exponential rate. Now that seems like a good thing to me. What if a car's MPG could advance at this pace?



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

This has got to be the worst car analogy ever. You're seriously comparing a motor vehicle to broadband?

I'm hearing "POTS is old fashioned and obsolete, FiOS is much better, you're just a luddite". When it comes to availability POTS kills FiOS. Why? Because it was DESIGNED that way.

And you're going to suggest that we shouldn't even try to have a reliable system because under extreme events the CO can get flooded? Care to take that logic to Japan where they just dealt with Fukishima?

This attitude, "well it's hard/expensive/inconvenient to fix the problem, so we shouldn't even bother trying" has really gotten us into quite a mess.



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to nothing00

said by nothing00:

Sure, now it is. It's a brand new, just installed network designed to last decades. Let's see how it looks after 40 years of use and 20 additional years of neglect.

FiOS regulated voice is a pure bait and switch. It's VOIP with a different bill and no service availability requirements.

1- fiber has been used to provide voice service for decades. The reliability of it in actual working conditions has been proven.

2- regulated voice (over fiber / FIOS) is =not= VoIP. Customers choosing regulated service plug into the same switches as the copper lines.

You keep arguing about how necessary true pots line service is -- but if you read the news topics here, people have been cutting out pots lines for years. If you read posts in this very forum people are screaming that pots is too expensive. Copper prices are at all time high's -- people are dying in thier attempts to steal it. At some point there jus aren't going to be enough customers wanting the service for companies to continue offering it.

The only real arguement you have is who pays the minuscule electric bill for powering the ONT but its a weak arguement as that relates to real world survivability.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

1 recommendation

Fiber is already more reliable, most powerful, flexible and cheaper to run over the long haul than copper is. Fiber has been in use for 30+ years already.

It's a proven reliable and stable technology. You can argue the case that copper might be better in an emergency but that just is not the case any more.

Fiber is the reason your 'Nan in California sounds like she is next door, if you are old enough to remember THE AT&T then you know what I am talking about. There is no interference its housed in the exact same tubing that copper once was. It's glass its natural water and corrosion resistant.

Fiber repairs faster and more cheaply than copper. You have fewer fiber lines to repair during a cut and you don't have guy's tenting up for days on end matching pairs up.

There is no rational argument for copper anymore. The "power" argument is moot at this point with the level of infrastructure that is currently built out.

The cost of your powering the device is next to nothing over the level of service, types and quality of service you now receive.

I don't hear this power argument in the cable forums, they too have to power all their equipment to get phone, T V and internet over one very old coax plant that may or may not have fiber depending on the age and location. They aren't constantly bemoaning that they now have to power all their equipment.

There are MILLIONS of cable and FiOS customers that are quite happy and satisfied with the state and direction of technology that allows them to communicate to the world at large. There would be millions more if the service was built out in their area.

You want to make real change? Petition your local community developers and councils to mandate buried lines for all phone, cable and power infrastructure. You would see drastic reduction in these storm related power issues across the board.


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

You know, I bet if all these POTS supporters were offered a choice of you pay for the service of maintaining the POTS network yourself where no FiOS subscriber money is put into that, the cost would probably be so high that nobody would want to bother.

I know I don't want my FiOS bill increasing to maintain an ancient network architecture that only 10 out of every 1000 people are crazy about because they can use their ebay purchased 10 year old land line corded phones during a power outage.

The need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one. Get over it or move to AT&T turf. I myself moved to Verizon territory specifically for Fiber and never look back to regret my decision. You may also look on the AT&T forums for all their subscribers begging for a FiOS type solution and telling all of us how lucky we are to be in Verizon FiOS territory.



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to PhoenixDown

said by PhoenixDown:

1- fiber has been used to provide voice service for decades. The reliability of it in actual working conditions has been proven.

Okay, we're conflating two different things when we talk about reliability. Let's talk about availability and maintenance. We can agree that fiber costs less to maintenance and we should also be able to agree that POTS has higher availability. The brand new shiny FiOS network is less available by design.

Reliability as it's been used here has meant at least two different things. From how often the customer experiences outages and under what conditions (me) to how often and how much money must go into maintaining the network (others).

said by PhoenixDown:

2- regulated voice (over fiber / FIOS) is =not= VoIP. Customers choosing regulated service plug into the same switches as the copper lines.

And you still end up with an ONT and the inherent unreliability of the network during a power failure. FiOS Digital Voice calls end up going over the same switches as POTS does too most of the time and vice versa. Technically it's a silly distinction since these services are necessarily transparently interoperable. Legally it's a different story.

Show me a Freedom Essentials fiber phone line that's plugged into an electromechanical switch in some CO and I'll agree that the services are truly different and that POTS truly has never evolved.

said by PhoenixDown:

You keep arguing about how necessary true pots line service is -- but if you read the news topics here, people have been cutting out pots lines for years. If you read posts in this very forum people are screaming that pots is too expensive. Copper prices are at all time high's -- people are dying in thier attempts to steal it. At some point there jus aren't going to be enough customers wanting the service for companies to continue offering it.

I'm not arguing that POTS is necessary at all. I'm arguing that without a suitable life safety equivalent we should hang on to it.

Show me the high availability replacement. I'm all for progress.

McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

So nothing00, would you pay 3x or more what your currently paying for FIOS to keep your copper?



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

said by McBane:

So nothing00, would you pay 3x or more what your currently paying for FIOS to keep your copper?

I don't want to "keep my copper". I'm not nostalgic about and dreams of it don't keep me warm at night. I could care less about what the underlying technology is as long as the public has a high availability communications network available.

The argument seems to be, "FiOS does cool things therefore we can ditch the life safety requirements for our future critical infrastructure!"

And yes, I do agree burying power and telecommunications lines should be a priority for areas that are prone to storm related outages. And yes, I'm absolutely willing to pay my share to do it.

»mashable.com/2012/11/21/sandy-fcc-outages/


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00

Nothing00,

This is called changing the argument and its various forms. You are debating things that have nothing to do with your original premise.

I see no further reason for anyone to respond to this thread since the points raised have been addressed ad nausem and have so far not been refuted.

Fiber is not new, period. it supplanted copper a long time ago and I would even argue its more prevalent now than copper in dense population areas. You just aren't seeing it as other posters have noted. It beats copper in all cases including your cost version of reliability.

Fiber is HA. Fiber is used everywhere possible due to its superior HA characteristics over copper, just ask the military and banking systems for them copper is the option of last resort.

Fiber requires less power to transmit more data over longer distances than copper could ever possibly hope to. Ever wonder why there aren't anymore trans-oceanic copper lines anymore?

Copper is a dying medium and it will continue to die off as it should.

Further wireless is making many a fiber plant slowly obsolete as well. Just because your Nan doesn't use a cellular phone doesn't negate it as an increasingly reliable and required part of the national infrastructure. Wireless companies have been shoring up their wireless plants to reach HA levels of 99% or better.

Copper is becoming 3rd tier service for people and its becoming 3rd tier in terms of HA as well.



nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:16
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00

said by nothing00:

Show me a Freedom Essentials fiber phone line that's plugged into an electromechanical switch in some CO and I'll agree that the services are truly different and that POTS truly has never evolved.

FiOS Freedom Essentials still uses a class 5 CO switch, such as a 5ESS, DMS-100, GTD5 or EWSD....FE can also use a CS2K Softswitch.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to danclan

said by danclan:

Nothing00,

This is called changing the argument and its various forms. You are debating things that have nothing to do with your original premise.

I see no further reason for anyone to respond to this thread since the points raised have been addressed ad nausem and have so far not been refuted.

Thanks. Since the master has spoken we'll all go away.

Which argument has shifted?

There are two points to my argument:
- FiOS is not high availability - by design as opposed to the technology it replaces
- Verizon has shifted costs of running and maintaining the network to the consumer (for voice)

Your argument on the other hand is "fiber is great and fiber deployments can be highly available so therefore FiOS is too". Bologna! Just because it's fiber, the 10G fiber in my house that my dog occasionally walks over can't be called reliable.

Should be crystal for you. Everything else you wrote isn't very relevant.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to nycdave

said by nycdave:

FiOS Freedom Essentials still uses a class 5 CO switch, such as a 5ESS, DMS-100, GTD5 or EWSD....FE can also use a CS2K Softswitch.

Cool stuff Dave.


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14

nothing00 -- you really are missing it and I dont believe I can do a better job of explaining to you why you are wrong.



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

1 edit

said by PhoenixDown:

nothing00 -- you really are missing it and I dont believe I can do a better job of explaining to you why you are wrong.

I guess we're not communicating then. Because there are a few "uber FiOS" posters who are clearly wrong. I haven't seen anything that doesn't agree with the two arguments I highlighted above.

This isn't about fiber vs. copper. There's no comparison and I mistakenly used "copper" earlier to refer to POTS service. People have jumped in comparing these two technologies and confusing them with two completely different deployments. I don't care about POTS per-se. It's the high availability attribute of it that's of most concern and missing in the replacement deployments. (Which the backup is part of.)

And in the link I posted above, others have noticed this as well. The thread started about forcing people from POTS to FiOS (or Freedom Essentials) and the really big difference is that granny, in a 12-hour power outage can't call for help.

Edit: A personal anecdote. In all of the years I had POTS service I experienced about three cumulative days of being unable to use the phone. In all of the years I've had FiOS (SIGNIFICANTLY less!) I've been unable to use the phone for about 21 cumulative days.


Rook008
Miles To Go
Premium
join:2002-02-05
Far Rockaway, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Being someone who was without power for 18 days because of Sandy, I wish I had waited a week to switch to Fios.
At least I had my old corded phone, because when I went to a neighbor's house and plugged it in, it let me call some people to tell them I was okay.
Thank god for old people who don't want the newest technology.
--
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H. L. Mencken



danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
reply to nothing00

We have addressed it, repeatedly.

Just because granny is on fiber and loses power does not automatically mean if granny was on copper she would still have service, that is and will be forever an incorrect assumption and conclusion.


knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1

And "Lifeline" service is supposed to have moved to cellular anyway. It's why we're giving away a billion dollars in "free" cell phones a year.