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nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to McBane

Re: Verizon is using Sandy as an excuse to force people to FiOS

said by McBane:

So nothing00, would you pay 3x or more what your currently paying for FIOS to keep your copper?

I don't want to "keep my copper". I'm not nostalgic about and dreams of it don't keep me warm at night. I could care less about what the underlying technology is as long as the public has a high availability communications network available.

The argument seems to be, "FiOS does cool things therefore we can ditch the life safety requirements for our future critical infrastructure!"

And yes, I do agree burying power and telecommunications lines should be a priority for areas that are prone to storm related outages. And yes, I'm absolutely willing to pay my share to do it.

»mashable.com/2012/11/21/sandy-fcc-outages/


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00
Nothing00,

This is called changing the argument and its various forms. You are debating things that have nothing to do with your original premise.

I see no further reason for anyone to respond to this thread since the points raised have been addressed ad nausem and have so far not been refuted.

Fiber is not new, period. it supplanted copper a long time ago and I would even argue its more prevalent now than copper in dense population areas. You just aren't seeing it as other posters have noted. It beats copper in all cases including your cost version of reliability.

Fiber is HA. Fiber is used everywhere possible due to its superior HA characteristics over copper, just ask the military and banking systems for them copper is the option of last resort.

Fiber requires less power to transmit more data over longer distances than copper could ever possibly hope to. Ever wonder why there aren't anymore trans-oceanic copper lines anymore?

Copper is a dying medium and it will continue to die off as it should.

Further wireless is making many a fiber plant slowly obsolete as well. Just because your Nan doesn't use a cellular phone doesn't negate it as an increasingly reliable and required part of the national infrastructure. Wireless companies have been shoring up their wireless plants to reach HA levels of 99% or better.

Copper is becoming 3rd tier service for people and its becoming 3rd tier in terms of HA as well.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00
said by nothing00:

Show me a Freedom Essentials fiber phone line that's plugged into an electromechanical switch in some CO and I'll agree that the services are truly different and that POTS truly has never evolved.

FiOS Freedom Essentials still uses a class 5 CO switch, such as a 5ESS, DMS-100, GTD5 or EWSD....FE can also use a CS2K Softswitch.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to danclan
said by danclan:

Nothing00,

This is called changing the argument and its various forms. You are debating things that have nothing to do with your original premise.

I see no further reason for anyone to respond to this thread since the points raised have been addressed ad nausem and have so far not been refuted.

Thanks. Since the master has spoken we'll all go away.

Which argument has shifted?

There are two points to my argument:
- FiOS is not high availability - by design as opposed to the technology it replaces
- Verizon has shifted costs of running and maintaining the network to the consumer (for voice)

Your argument on the other hand is "fiber is great and fiber deployments can be highly available so therefore FiOS is too". Bologna! Just because it's fiber, the 10G fiber in my house that my dog occasionally walks over can't be called reliable.

Should be crystal for you. Everything else you wrote isn't very relevant.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to nycdave
said by nycdave:

FiOS Freedom Essentials still uses a class 5 CO switch, such as a 5ESS, DMS-100, GTD5 or EWSD....FE can also use a CS2K Softswitch.

Cool stuff Dave.


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14
nothing00 -- you really are missing it and I dont believe I can do a better job of explaining to you why you are wrong.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

1 edit
said by PhoenixDown:

nothing00 -- you really are missing it and I dont believe I can do a better job of explaining to you why you are wrong.

I guess we're not communicating then. Because there are a few "uber FiOS" posters who are clearly wrong. I haven't seen anything that doesn't agree with the two arguments I highlighted above.

This isn't about fiber vs. copper. There's no comparison and I mistakenly used "copper" earlier to refer to POTS service. People have jumped in comparing these two technologies and confusing them with two completely different deployments. I don't care about POTS per-se. It's the high availability attribute of it that's of most concern and missing in the replacement deployments. (Which the backup is part of.)

And in the link I posted above, others have noticed this as well. The thread started about forcing people from POTS to FiOS (or Freedom Essentials) and the really big difference is that granny, in a 12-hour power outage can't call for help.

Edit: A personal anecdote. In all of the years I had POTS service I experienced about three cumulative days of being unable to use the phone. In all of the years I've had FiOS (SIGNIFICANTLY less!) I've been unable to use the phone for about 21 cumulative days.


Rook008
Miles To Go
Premium
join:2002-02-05
Far Rockaway, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
Being someone who was without power for 18 days because of Sandy, I wish I had waited a week to switch to Fios.
At least I had my old corded phone, because when I went to a neighbor's house and plugged it in, it let me call some people to tell them I was okay.
Thank god for old people who don't want the newest technology.
--
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H. L. Mencken


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
reply to nothing00
We have addressed it, repeatedly.

Just because granny is on fiber and loses power does not automatically mean if granny was on copper she would still have service, that is and will be forever an incorrect assumption and conclusion.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1
And "Lifeline" service is supposed to have moved to cellular anyway. It's why we're giving away a billion dollars in "free" cell phones a year.


Rattler

join:2001-04-13
Havertown, PA
reply to CGMason14
Since I posted, on the first page of this thread ( »Re: Verizon is using Sandy as an excuse to force people to FiOS ), there have been some "interesting" developments in my relative's saga...

In preparation for FiOS installation next Wed, V*, in their infinite wisdom, turned OFF his current phone service. However, his DSL is still active.

He called them about it and in order to get his phone service turned back on, they would have had to cancel his current FiOS order and reenter it but it still would take about 2 days to turn his POTS back on. Because he got such a good price (so he says) for the FiOS "upgrade" he was reluctant to go through the cancellation and reinstatement of the order for fear of losing the "deal" they gave him (probably a lot of grounds for that thought).

I mentioned that he would probably get screwed in other ways before this was over...
--
Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected. -- Red Buttons


CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ
reply to danclan
said by danclan:

Further wireless is making many a fiber plant slowly obsolete as well. Just because your Nan doesn't use a cellular phone doesn't negate it as an increasingly reliable and required part of the national infrastructure. Wireless companies have been shoring up their wireless plants to reach HA levels of 99% or better.

Wireless will never supplant a fiber plant in bandwidth or value, there just isn't enough spectrum to support it. I don't expect to see an uncapped consistent 35/35Mbit LTE connection any time soon. Plus the cell phone voice network pretty much collapsed the day after Sandy hit. Data worked for the most part, but voice service was dead. If the lines to your house didn't get knocked out, you still had POTS.

Whats funny is that I had an actual copper pair (actually 2 since we have 2 lines) direct from the CO prior to switching to FiOS in 2007. That same CO maintained an electromechanical crossbar switch well into the late 90s! It was obvious too, after dialing there was a short pause then a kr-klunk when the call connected and started ringing. The lines were never truly silent either, you could hear faint signaling tones and voices while dialing numbers.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to CGMason14
said by CGMason14:

My grandmother who is on copper (Elizabeth NJ CO) received a note in the mail...


You know, I've heard similar things (even before Sandy) from other people. The one thing they had in common is that they were all elderly. Elderly people are less likely to question the need for a change like this, and probably don't even understand what's involved, or the issues regarding battery backup.

Are you sure this was an official letter from Verizon? Or is it some third-party salesman just trying to up his commissions by making people think they have to switch?

One of the elderly victims I know about is now paying more than they were paying for POTS. Another had no phone service for days after Sandy, while her neighbor with POTS had phone service throughout the storm.

Tell your grandmother not to switch.


CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ
said by Bob4:

said by CGMason14:

My grandmother who is on copper (Elizabeth NJ CO) received a note in the mail...


You know, I've heard similar things (even before Sandy) from other people. The one thing they had in common is that they were all elderly. Elderly people are less likely to question the need for a change like this, and probably don't even understand what's involved, or the issues regarding battery backup.

It was from Verizon, not a 3rd party. I know what you mean about third parties. About a year ago I stopped an overeager FiOS salesman that was going door to door from signing her up for a triple play package... she doesn't even have a computer! I have also heard from folks up in Bergen County that Verizon is constantly calling them to switch to the point of it being harassment.


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
reply to CGMason14
said by CGMason14:

Wireless will never supplant a fiber plant in bandwidth or value, there just isn't enough spectrum to support it. I don't expect to see an uncapped consistent 35/35Mbit LTE connection any time soon. Plus the cell phone voice network pretty much collapsed the day after Sandy hit. Data worked for the most part, but voice service was dead. If the lines to your house didn't get knocked out, you still had POTS.

Whats funny is that I had an actual copper pair (actually 2 since we have 2 lines) direct from the CO prior to switching to FiOS in 2007. That same CO maintained an electromechanical crossbar switch well into the late 90s! It was obvious too, after dialing there was a short pause then a kr-klunk when the call connected and started ringing. The lines were never truly silent either, you could hear faint signaling tones and voices while dialing numbers.

Old school CO....but wireless will eventually take over...it's not going to happen in the next 5 years but 10 years out you should expect there to be fewer people hard wired and decline in wired connections. Its happening already and will continue to accelerate as younger wireless kids age and move out.

Wireless whether we like it or not is the future state of a very large portion of the communications environment Just check out the sheer number of smart phones being purchased in the past 5 years and their growth.

There is AMPLE bandwidth. The issue is really how efficiently its deployed and with what type of radio. The US mobile carriers aren't nearly as efficient as European. I think (hope!) that will improve over the next decade.


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14
It's happening in Japan right now.


bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2
said by PhoenixDown:

It's happening in Japan right now.

What's Happening in Japan ?


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14
Users are leaving fiber to the home for LTE wireless. Front page article.


bigdaddy

join:2009-11-18
kudos:2
Oh Thanks

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to CGMason14
said by CGMason14:

said by alchav:

Companies like Verizon have to use their Resources wisely, and Fiber and FiOS is the Future.

Not if you live in an area that hasn't had FiOS built out. A friend of mine in Piscataway, NJ is still waiting for it even though the CO that serves his house is live and three blocks over has fiber.

My CO has Fios. The people across the street have Fios. But Verizon has decided I am unworthy, and will never, ever be able to get Fios. Verizon would prefer I give my money to Cablevision.

»[Rant] FiOS sign-up event - But not for you!

McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX
We should direct the AT&T U-Verse people to this thread for them to preach how much of a blessing it is to have fiber to the house over LTE and DSL.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to danclan
said by danclan:

We have addressed it, repeatedly.

Just because granny is on fiber and loses power does not automatically mean if granny was on copper she would still have service, that is and will be forever an incorrect assumption and conclusion.

By addressed it you mean people have put forth their opinion as fact and had decided they make decisions for everyone?

Thanks for boiling it down. It does look like we agree on something. There is no 100% reliable network - stuff happens. What we aren't agreeing on is how reliable and available for the end user the nation's critical infrastructure should be.

With all of the inherent improvements that fiber brings that you've cited you somehow feel it's okay for the our future infrastructure to be less reliable than it is today. Between advances in technology and all of the money that we spend on it, shouldn't we instead expect a more reliable network than technology allowed for 50 years ago?

I'd really love to hear your reasoning on why not.


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
Reviews:
·ooma
reply to Bob4
said by Bob4:

said by CGMason14:

said by alchav:

Companies like Verizon have to use their Resources wisely, and Fiber and FiOS is the Future.

Not if you live in an area that hasn't had FiOS built out. A friend of mine in Piscataway, NJ is still waiting for it even though the CO that serves his house is live and three blocks over has fiber.

My CO has Fios. The people across the street have Fios. But Verizon has decided I am unworthy, and will never, ever be able to get Fios. Verizon would prefer I give my money to Cablevision.

There must be a good reason you don't have FiOS, you have to ask a Verizon Field Tech or Supervisor. Then find out how many houses and people in your neighborhood don't have FiOS but want it. If you have a few homes that want FiOS, but don't have it you can go to Verizon in Force and I'm sure they will listen. You have to talk to the right people at Verizon and organize yourselves properly to do this. Verizon is a Company and they want your Business, but what happens is they lay Fiber and no one buys it, so deployment is stopped until they get information that someone wants FiOS.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
said by alchav:

Verizon is a Company and they want your Business,

Obviously not. We (as a neighborhood of 100 units) have contacted Verizon officials (I believe at the Vice President level) and they've said they will not install Fios at our location, even though the neighborhood across the street has it.

So, Cablevision continues to rake-in the big bucks.

chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00
I've got 2 things technologies thats might satisfy you:

#1. Place all POTS lines in liquid nitrogen to make them superconducting. not very practical.

#2. Scientists are working on this holy grail Hypothetical material known as a super conductor at room temperature. brb its in my time machine

Im here not because fios is "cool". Nor am i just slightly passionate about technology. technology is my life. Im here with 3 yrs of physics + double major in computer science and applied mathematics to share with you that fiber is our best viable technology currently available that im aware of. And that in totality it is more reliable. really sorry you went 21 cumulative days without fios phone. sincerely im sorry but it seems theres not much i or anyone else can really do for you. I think you can probably find more useful real world problems to address.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
said by chomper87:

Im here with 3 yrs of physics + double major in computer science and applied mathematics to share with you that fiber is our best viable technology currently available that im aware of.

If it's so great, why has Verizon decided that the vast majority of its customers will never get Fios?

chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink
I cant defend Verizons business descions. I dont work for them - even though they offered me a job, i chose to work elsewhere.

But faced with the tremendous growth and demand in 4G/LTE and the immense profits associated with wireless, thats what Verizon is doing. same as ATT.

Both companies do some questionable things such as lobby for laws to prevent a community or municipal based network.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
In NJ, Verizon lobbied for a state-wide Fios franchise. They got it, then proceeded to NOT wire most of the state.


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

1 recommendation

said by Bob4:

In NJ, Verizon lobbied for a state-wide Fios franchise. They got it, then proceeded to NOT wire most of the state.

To answer both your questions: Wireless. They would rather invest in that than continue to run ground lines and replace the last mile. It makes sense to the customer, IF you can deliver the wireless speeds and service, otherwise its just a cash grab.

I would rather see us as a nation have 100% fiber than the hodge podge of whats in play today. I feel for those who will be stuck with copper/coax for the next 25 more years, and can only hope wireless services truly take off.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Can wireless really provide the TV plus 50/8 Mbps low-latency Internet that the cable company provides?