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teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On

[Rant] Staples.ca - that wasn't easy for me!

staples had purell hand sanitizer 1L refills on sale a few days ago so i decided i would buy 16 of them. they were on sale for $5.16 each.

here's the product in question:
»www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_s···WW&=&=&=

unfortunately, staples delivered me stock which expired october 2012 (almost two months ago). i called customer service and asked if i could get fresh product and was told there was none in stock and there wouldn't be until possibly january. i was then told the product was still good based on a letter staples got from gojo who makes purell. i was told the product is still good for two more years based on this letter. i asked staples customer service to email me this letter so i could see for my self. after carefully reading this letter, the letter did not apply to my product. my product's model number wasn't listed on the letter, only other products were listed. staples was aware that expired product was being shipped out to customers.

customer service will not send me replacement product for the same discount price i paid when they get the product in stock, only a refund. what is the point of looking out for sales at staples? what a waste of time. i've been waiting a year for this stuff to go on sale. because of this experience, from now on, i will be under the impression that when something is on sale at staples, there is something wrong with it.

i spent over 40 minutes on the phone with staples, most of the time on hold, and i didn't even get the issue resolved. i wasted the day waiting for the delivery, the time on the phone with CSR and now i have to wait for someone to call me back. this is not how you treat customers.

all i wanted was to have my purchase exchanged for non expired product.

maybe staples should change their slogan to "it's not going to be easy".



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

return the product and just wash your hands with regular soap when needed...save yourself the $100.



teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On

said by dirtyjeffer:

return the product and just wash your hands with regular soap when needed...save yourself the $100.

not that easy. it's hard to keep my hands clean after washing my hands because i have to push a wheelchair. so i have sanitizer dispensers where i need them. i also carry sanitizer with me in a bottle for use in public restrooms.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

constantly barraging your body with "germs" helps build up your immune system to prevent you from getting sick...while i understand your desire to "stay clean", being too clean is equally as harmful as being filthy pig.



teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On

said by dirtyjeffer:

constantly barraging your body with "germs" helps build up your immune system to prevent you from getting sick...while i understand your desire to "stay clean", being too clean is equally as harmful as being filthy pig.

i understand but before i started these sanitizing procedures, i suffered from chronic bladder infections. i haven't had a bladder infection since i have been sanitizing my hands before catheterization.


koira
Keep Fighting Michael
Premium
join:2004-02-16
reply to teletone

It's basically alcohol isn't it
Does alcohol go bad?
I wouldn't worry about it


jaberi

join:2010-08-13
reply to dirtyjeffer

i recall reading something on some health site, saying hand sanitizers can actually worse than no sanitizer at all.



teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On
reply to koira

said by koira:

It's basically alcohol isn't it
Does alcohol go bad?
I wouldn't worry about it

i contacted the manufacturer and asked how long the product is good for after the expiry date.

if it doesn't go bad, why put an expiry date?


fourboxers
Co-Lead Mod
join:2003-05-04
Toronto, ON
reply to teletone

»www.leonardchu.com/blog/index.ph···n-dates/

and from their site if there is a date of manufacture on the bottle

What is the expiration of the product?
Generally the expiration date is printed on the bottom or back of the package. If there is no expiration date printed on the package, the product is good for 3 years from the date of manufacture.



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to teletone

said by teletone:

if it doesn't go bad, why put an expiry date?

Bottled water has an expiry date.


Stability

@videotron.ca
reply to teletone

All the germ mumbo-jumbo aside, You are right. By doing this staples is false advertizing and misleading the public. In addition to selling a product which is not per label, spec and FDA/Health Canada norms.

When a product such as this is past expiry date (especially a product that is controlled by health Canada) stability testing must be performed by a lab in order to prove-in compliance and suitability, and also degradation. All done in a lab with verifiable and auditable results by regulators. Unless they have some sort of special pass that releases them from any regulations (which is unlikely).

The place to start for you would be your Ontario consumer protection place. In Quebec you can go back against a company for this to honour the pricing/product (or an equivalent), and whatever else (even if on a webpage). No clue about Ontario. But you should find out. Staples already blew you off and played you for a fool, it appears.

Consumer issue aside, maybe you should contact the appropriate agency branch under health Canada about this as well to discuss what has happened to you, the product not being listed, the expiry date, no stability data, and staples ignoring you and continuing to get rid of old and expired anti-bacterial soap/sanitize. They just may open a file on this.



teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On
reply to fourboxers

said by fourboxers:

»www.leonardchu.com/blog/index.ph···n-dates/

and from their site if there is a date of manufacture on the bottle

What is the expiration of the product?
Generally the expiration date is printed on the bottom or back of the package. If there is no expiration date printed on the package, the product is good for 3 years from the date of manufacture.

that's a good read but i'd still be concerned about the degradation of the other contents in the mixture, the moisturizers and vitamin E. also, the packaging its self. can those things decompose into harmful (irritant) substances? also, does the moisturizer become ineffective causing my hands to dry out because of the amount i have to use in a day, every day? will the product get too thin and start dripping out of the pouch?

i once put expired skin cream on my face and my face started to burn within a minute. i had to wash it off. my face turned red and i had to put raw aloevera on my face to stop the burning.


teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On
reply to Stability

said by Stability :

All the germ mumbo-jumbo aside, You are right. By doing this staples is false advertizing and misleading the public. In addition to selling a product which is not per label, spec and FDA/Health Canada norms.

When a product such as this is past expiry date (especially a product that is controlled by health Canada) stability testing must be performed by a lab in order to prove-in compliance and suitability, and also degradation. All done in a lab with verifiable and auditable results by regulators. Unless they have some sort of special pass that releases them from any regulations (which is unlikely).

The place to start for you would be your Ontario consumer protection place. In Quebec you can go back against a company for this to honour the pricing/product (or an equivalent), and whatever else (even if on a webpage). No clue about Ontario. But you should find out. Staples already blew you off and played you for a fool, it appears.

Consumer issue aside, maybe you should contact the appropriate agency branch under health Canada about this as well to discuss what has happened to you, the product not being listed, the expiry date, no stability data, and staples ignoring you and continuing to get rid of old and expired anti-bacterial soap/sanitize. They just may open a file on this.

thank you for the suggestion. exactly the point. staples should not knowingly be selling expired product. to boot, they still have it for sale on their website even though their CSR told me they don't have any good stock. lets see what gojo has to say and then i will contact health canada.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Contact Ellen Roseman at the Toronto Star. She writes about personal finance and consumer issues. You can reach her at eroseman@thestar.ca or www.ellenroseman.com

Staples will probably bend over backwards if she gets involved.
Nothing like a little bad press.......



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to teletone

said by teletone:

not that easy. it's hard to keep my hands clean after washing my hands because i have to push a wheelchair.

Wear gloves?

But yes, you should not have to accept an inferior product.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/


teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On

2 edits

said by shaner:

said by teletone:

not that easy. it's hard to keep my hands clean after washing my hands because i have to push a wheelchair.

Wear gloves?

can't do. if you're suggesting i wear a pair of disposable gloves to perform catheterization, that's 3650 gloves wasted in a year (36.5 boxes).

if you're suggesting i wear the same pair of gloves and take them off to perform catheterization, that doesn't keep my hands clean. the insides of gloves don't stay sterile forever.
Expand your moderator at work


Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario
kudos:1
reply to teletone

Re: [Rant] Staples.ca - that wasn't easy for me!

said by teletone:

said by dirtyjeffer:

constantly barraging your body with "germs" helps build up your immune system to prevent you from getting sick...while i understand your desire to "stay clean", being too clean is equally as harmful as being filthy pig.

i understand but before i started these sanitizing procedures, i suffered from chronic bladder infections. i haven't had a bladder infection since i have been sanitizing my hands before catheterization.

Did you try washing your hands immediately before. . . errrr . scratching?


Agreed

@videotron.ca
reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

Contact Ellen Roseman at the Toronto Star. She writes about personal finance and consumer issues. You can reach her at eroseman@thestar.ca or www.ellenroseman.com

Staples will probably bend over backwards if she gets involved.
Nothing like a little bad press.......

I will also second this one.

Would be a good one to read in her column or blog.

Grappler

join:2002-09-01
Ottawa, ON
reply to teletone

said by teletone:

if you're suggesting i wear a pair of disposable gloves to perform catheterization, that's 3650 gloves wasted in a year (36.5 boxes).

if you're suggesting i wear the same pair of gloves and take them off to perform catheterization, that doesn't keep my hands clean. the insides of gloves don't stay sterile forever.

Reading your numbers you are doing in the range of 7 catheterizations/day, based on a 50 week year, 5 days a week.

Is it then safe to say that with those numbers you are not an independent/contract worker, but work for a health care organization.

It is not your responsibility to provide the gloves or sanitizer, it is up to the organization, based on my past experience with Labour Board Investigations. This also applies to the health and safety of the patients, to ensure that they are not exposed to any cross contamination.

Conversely, if you are under contract, etc and have to provide your own supplies, then this is a legitimate expense.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Grappler:

Is it then safe to say that with those numbers you are not an independent/contract worker, but work for a health care organization.

It is not your responsibility ...snip...

I was thinking it might be a self-catheterizations, which is possible. Otherwise protocol would be latex (or similar) and also a business write off.

he could always find an industrial supplier, show what his minimum yearly order is and what it's for, make arrangements for monthly drop-offs and likely get them at a very good discount. Not as cheap as that purell though.

Also, purell doesn't kill everything off. I would imagine he washes then applies this as a double-safety.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to teletone

you know... just thinking off the top of my head...

In the lab we used to use pure methanol (we had globs of infectious proteins hanging around) to wipe down surfaces after we were done with analysis. Pure methanol wasn't really that effective BTW, but you aren't dealing with blobs of gelatinous proteins. Plus methanol isn't too good to be rubbing your hands with.

Having said that, what is wrong with rubbing alcohol (iso-propanol)? It will have the same protein denaturing effect as the 60% ethanol (which is what purell is) and also kill off pathogens. Actually those sterile disinfecting alcohol wipes in aluminum packages found in hospitals are exactly that, iso-propanol (running alcohol).

You can save yourself more money, have a larger quantity, and avoid the gimmick of purell and the BS "99% germ kill rate". Soap and water gets rid of more than purell.

You could have a few bottles in diff places just like you would like purell.

I say dump purell, make your complaint to everyone possible since you are right about this wrong, and move on to rubbing alcohol.

Do you really need the added perfume on your hands? That alone is an irritant. You don't need it.

Standard disclaimer:
I am not a doctor, seek medical advice first before listening to a lab rat



nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to teletone

said by teletone:

customer service will not send me replacement product for the same discount price i paid when they get the product in stock, only a refund.

Here is your redress...full refund...you get your money back, staples is under no obligation to do anything else, they did exactly what they said they would. If you aren't accepting of the product as they have sold it, then they've refunded your money...

Am I the only one who missed this? Relax, and stop getting so agitated about hand sanitizer, it'll help your blood presure and your overall health in the long run.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by nitzguy:

Am I the only one who missed this?

I guess I missed something. I don't see the ad stating:
"old, past date purell for sale. Save money by buying old product no one wants!"
Where do you see that??

He has a right to have it replaced with a non-past-date product (at least here he would, guess Ontario is different).

What's being sold isn't acceptable unless they clearly state what it is. He should also make a complaint to Ad Standards Canada. Not only is it wrong per the code, it's also a bait and switch.

Code: »www.adstandards.com/en/Standards···ses.aspx, Read it.


teletone

join:2010-06-07
Toronto, On
reply to teletone

just an update: customer service didn't get back to me like they said they would and staples never posted my review. also, gojo didn't reply to my inquiry yet. also, staples is still selling the product on its website despite that CSR told me there would be no unexpired stock until january.



Shrug

@videotron.ca

Do everything people stated to you starting tonight:

1. Ellen Roseman
»www.ellenroseman.com/

2. Health Canada

3. Ad Standards Canada, they break a few codes.
»www.adstandards.com/en/

4. Whatever Consumer protect agency exists in Ontario. And if they will touch this one, aside from a refund that isn't as advertized.

I would do them all and give them grief. Ad Standards Canada will be a slam dunk if what you said is true.

Don't forget to tell all these entities that you were offered a refund, but instead you want the product that is offered. Not this bait and switch to old past-date defective garbage.



horsey

@eastlink.ca
reply to teletone

said by teletone:

just an update: customer service didn't get back to me like they said they would and staples never posted my review. also, gojo didn't reply to my inquiry yet. also, staples is still selling the product on its website despite that CSR told me there would be no unexpired stock until january.

I have found that asking about a MSDS sheet can work wonders.

ALSO if it was my job to do that for you YOU can bet your last dollar that I would bitch to my employer.

It is late on the east coast....BEST of luck.


shrug

@videotron.ca

yeah, but in this case i doubt there will be anything wrong with it. his skin isn't going to fall of. At most alcohol volumes may drop. But, the products effectiveness, *as advertized*, is based on the concentrations of alcohol. The active ingredient. Which is why, among other things, this isn't right. It's also a reason why it has an expiry date, alcohol content may be diminished to the point where their "claims" to the public may no longer hold true.

Normally you would do validation, which i'm sure this company and the previous owners of this product have done. After-all, they tout this product as meeting FDA spec's. FDA specs would require validation data for the expired product. Which again, I would think it would fail since it has an expiry date. If validation data proved it didn't, then they wouldn't need the date. Or, they could increase the date based on the validation data.

Anyhow, this guy has more than enough info to arm himself and make of it what he wishes to make of it.



ruddypict

join:2010-03-24
kudos:2
reply to Shrug

I hear where you are coming from. I'm tired of companies trying to pan off expired products. They keep selling it because some people don't check. If you do catch them, there's no penalty on their end, so why would they stop?

Post it on their Facebook wall, on Twitter or anywhere else where you can get some visibility to the company and to the public. It might get the company moving to rein in the PR damage. Worst case scenario you might raise the awareness of the general public so less people fall for this douchebag tactic.