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OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to NormanS

Re: Microsoft STALKS YOU Even More Than Supermarkets Do

said by NormanS:

So remind me ... what happens if I let them track me?

They sell your data, get money from that sell and invest that money into that becoming profitable business - tracking people... Do you want that?

It's like getting spam - if you want to get it more, click on links they give you in spam...

In other words - think about what are you doing BEFORE you're doing it. Or others may do it in "your behalf" and you may not like what you're going to get
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
Another vague response. While it is galling to think that I am not getting a cut of the profit from selling my data, just what percentage could I expect? They make money on the aggregate data; my cut would probably be $0.05 per month. And its not like they are stealing nickels out of my pocket.

Spam is a whole subject in its own right, but has no bearing on tracking; other than the spammers can track spam readers ... maybe.

Others will do it on my behalf, and there is precious little I can do to prevent it. I have been forged in e-mail, and in the Usenet. The only way I could have mitigated those forgeries would have been to not use e-mail and not post to the Usenet.

If I had the discipline to successfully impersonate another person, I could probably easily avoid online trackers; or at least deflect them in a direction I desire. But I don't feel like spending my entire online experience in a state of "Condition Red". It is psychologically exhausting; and with one mistake it is, "Game Over".
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
reply to FF4m3

 

said by goalieskates :
Short answer: You wind up in various databases beyond theirs as they monetize their investment, for purposes having nothing to do with advertising. And down the road you face repercussions you can't explain as judgments (which could well be faulty) are made.
Exactly and who would WILLINGLY allow this to happen?

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to NormanS

Re: Microsoft STALKS YOU Even More Than Supermarkets Do

You don't get it, do you?

You're feeding your tracker. Nothing will stop them in their intrusiveness and trashing you in the process, but you...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
said by OZO:

You don't get it, do you?

You're feeding your tracker. Nothing will stop them in their intrusiveness and trashing you in the process, but you...

I think he DOES get it. I don't particularly like Microsoft's business practices either, but the idea that by visiting one of their sites I'm going to get "trashed" is firmly in the tin-foil-reflector-beanie realm.

Like I said, in all likelihood, if someone chooses to browse in a way that MSN or whomever likes, all they're really going to get is targeted ads. If that bothers a person, lots they can do to avoid it. But it might not particularly bother some people. To each their own.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 recommendation

reply to NormanS

Re:  

said by NormanS:

said by goalieskates:

Short answer: You wind up in various databases beyond theirs as they monetize their investment, for purposes having nothing to do with advertising.

Then maybe it shouldn't matter, because my tastes don't match their offerings; so they've wasted their money on my data?

And down the road you face repercussions you can't explain as judgments (which could well be faulty) are made.

I suppose a propensity to visit offshore sites might raise a few eyebrows, but blocking tracking cookies won't mask my surfing habits from the NSA eyes on the Tier 1 carrier networks.

Or more realistically, those databases you wind up in have nothing to do with advertising at all, nor do those repercussions.

Lots of people do profiling, to decide if you're credit-worthy or hireable or deserve a security clearance or any number of other things. The stated purpose for the tracking may be targeted advertising, but the uses for the data aren't limited to that. If you search 400 times over the course of a year or two for related terms, that says something about you, and it doesn't have to be red shoes.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
said by goalieskates:

The stated purpose for the tracking may be targeted advertising, but the uses for the data aren't limited to that.

Good point. Not many can see that...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to goalieskates
said by goalieskates:

Lots of people do profiling, to decide if you're credit-worthy or hireable or deserve a security clearance or any number of other things. The stated purpose for the tracking may be targeted advertising, but the uses for the data aren't limited to that. If you search 400 times over the course of a year or two for related terms, that says something about you, and it doesn't have to be red shoes.

I've had a security clearance (for as long as I needed it; only revoked for lack of need). I have credit. I have even been qualified to buy a surplus U.S. battle rifle.

I have been investigated for a major crime; once. I had evidence contradicting the complainant's claim. You could say that I retained a tracker offered by the complainant, which saved my bacon one year.

I have run some dicey searches; but have not been barred from any government benefit; save one, which is rejected 100% of the time. Cited reason made me, and some others I showed it to, as the cited reason was obviously in error.

So the trackers know I like kawaii neko-mimi musume. How is that going to bite me in the butt; this isn't the eve of 07 DEC 41!

I could spend hours tweaking and adjusting the tracker foiling applications; constantly, self-destructively on edge that somebody might find something to hold against me. But if they are going to connect my online surfing habits with my real world self, they are going to need to hire a gumshoe to track my meatspace persona.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to NormanS
As someone who used to live on page one of the 3 letter agencies tracking lists, I think NormanS is onto something here that well frankly I bought into a long time ago. Who cares what they do, all that really matters is what I do. If someone were to show me a bunch of ads for stuff that I was interested in, great, either I'm still looking, I've bought something and no longer care, or I've decided not to buy it, the point is 'me', and I'm in control regardless of what they show me and I think that is what NormanS is doing. Having to depend on outside sources to control my spending habits etc, is a carved in stone plan for debt overload and failure regardless if you use the internet or not.

When I look at my credit card and bank statements, I've never seen Bill Gates in there without me explicitly buying something from them, or anyone else and so I think that in this connected world that the best place for 'watching stuff' is my statements and frankly my budget (if I don't have the up front whip out cash, I'm not interested in buying, I might be researching to find out what something costs so I can decide if I need it that bad and if so adjusting my savings in my budget accordingly to purchase it at some point in the future when I can pay for it). I think that the current bullsh*t age of debt consumerism is thankfully going bye-bye because well frankly people/countries just can't afford anymore debt and so if ads helps me find the best product for the best price for stuff that I actually need, then its almost a service, otherwise I ignore it (of course a big part about advertising is not getting you to buy something now, but brand familiarization so when you do buy something, you buy their product)

In short I don't lose any sleep over cookies and if I was to go somewhere that I don't want tracked back to my system, well that is what InPrivate browsing, throw away virtual systems, zombie chains, etc are for

Blake

Sheryl Crow nailed it with:

It's not having what you want
It's wanting what you've got
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

2 recommendations

reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

... I've had a security clearance (for as long as I needed it; only revoked for lack of need). I have credit...

Like you, I've been well up on the grid for longer than I can remember... but that was largely by my own choice, for specific reasons of mutual benefit to me and the gum'int, and I prefer to keep it that way.

With respect to businesses and buying preferences, I want my personal privacy respected. When I go into a bricks-and-mortar store to shop, I really don't want a clerk (or anyone else) following me around like a puppy dog, watching closely over my shoulder at everything I browse through and writing it all down on a clipboard to consult with their management about what to try to sell me. If I need help, I'll ask; if I want to be shown the latest whatever, I'll ask; if I want to know whatever might be on sale, I'll ask... otherwise, it's none of their business.

Much of my shopping is from a mental, ongoing list in which I price-shop for bargains on particular products in which I'm currently interested. I'm rarely, if ever, interested in whatever the store clerk (or the store puppy dog) receives a sales bonus for pushing onto customers who show any interest in a particular category of products. And I certainly don't want my shopping interests from today reflected in what gets shoved at me the next time I enter that or some other store in the future. To me, it's all part of preserving my privacy.

Some of us simply want to be left alone to do our own thing, free of manipulation, "tailoring", or interference. So we also avoid cookies, apart from the bare minimum necessary to do some basic site viewing. When did it become a tin-hat issue if people simply want to be largely left alone unless they ask otherwise? I was always taught that's an inherent part of a person's privacy.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Blackbird:

When did it become a tin-hat issue if people simply want to be largely left alone unless they ask otherwise? I was always taught that's an inherent part of a person's privacy.

At the moment, when some have decided to make profit from selling your private info to others... Calling those, who don't want to be sold a tin-hat, is just a marketing trick here.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

When I go into a bricks-and-mortar store to shop, I really don't want a clerk (or anyone else) following me around like a puppy dog, watching closely over my shoulder at everything I browse through and writing it all down on a clipboard to consult with their management about what to try to sell me.

For the record, I use a variety of anti-tracking techniques for the same reasons as yourself.

But to turn that around, 50 years ago you might have had a local butcher. If the guy took note of what you bought, asked you how you liked the steaks next time you were in, and suggested something else to you to sell you, you might have considered that excellent customer service, rather than creepy "tracking". Now, if he sent his kid to follow you to everywhere else you shopped.......yeah....

The problem as I see it is that in an information age, data is absurdly cheap and easy to get. Paying someone to follow you is expensive, a tracking cookie is not. So companies seem to of the opinion that the amount of information they should collect on you is "everything that they possible can". Not surprisingly, some (like myself) would set that bar a lot lower. Or take the practice of asking a person for their Facebook profile info at a job interview, or asking an employee to "friend" the HR lady. I would be appalled if someone suggested to me that that was a good way to run a business. I would veto the idea on two firm principles. 1) I really don't want to know. 2) Even if I did want to know, it's really none of my business.

For another example, I liked the Amazon.com feature of rating books that I had purchased. I found that their author/book selections based on those recommendations improved my reading experience and found me good authors I had never heard of. A somewhat sophisticated algorithm was a better tool to find me more to read than the 16 year-old with a nose-ring punching a clock at Coles books. The problem is when Amazon sells my book reading preferences to another company, for any or no reason.

I think it's getting close to the time that some level of privacy laws are enacted limiting what a company can do with what they learn about you. Long over-due actually. Enforcing it? Yeah, probably not easy.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Blackbird
You are certainly free to handle cookies any way you wish. My question concerned what adverse effects they would have if I did not pursue controlling them.

I have never noticed any site puppy following me around the online store. I don't spend a lot of time in online stores. The ones where I have made purchases presented offers based on tracking others, and probably aggregate my purchase to pitch other prospective buyers; but I don't know who purchased what in the past. And the "you might like this" pitch was as obtrusive as a page 3 newspaper ad.

If you want to play with cookie mitigation software, have at it. But everybody acts on cost/benefit and risk/reward analysis. Nobody has yet shown me how detailed cookie mitigation measures will protect me from harm. I perceive a high cost with little benefit. If folks like Dude111 See Profile and Mele20 See Profile think that makes me some kind of unthinking, uncaring "Sheeple", well ... I am just trying to demonstrate that I have given it some thought, and decided I'd rather watch, Sword Art Online, or play some Last Chaos, than play with cookie mitigation measures which nobody can demonstrate will actually keep me from harm.

Any damned fool with a cell phone can follow me about on public streets, and my only recourse would be to stay indoors, or try to convince some judge to issue a restraining order. The level of perceived threat has to be high for restraining orders and cookie mitigation efforts. I just don't feel sufficiently threatened to be worrying about it.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

2 recommendations

reply to Ian
said by Ian:

... But to turn that around, 50 years ago you might have had a local butcher. If the guy took note of what you bought, asked you how you liked the steaks next time you were in, and suggested something else to you to sell you, you might have considered that excellent customer service, rather than creepy "tracking". ...

In that case, however, I'd have come to know and trust the butcher personally over time, partly because I was transacting with the same, real-live person repeatedly. I've never met a cookie I could get to know nor form any other kind of meaningful relationship with one, other than perhaps a vague dislike. On the other hand, if the first time I was in the butcher's store, he wrote down everything that I glanced at in his meat cases and repeatedly shoved products at me whenever my gaze paused at something, then perhaps went to his window to write down what kind of car I parked outside his door, my first trip to his store would likely have been my last. As it would have been with most other folks from that era.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to OZO
Certainly I'm entitled to my privacy, however if I walk into someone else's store (ie property) or website, then am I still entitled? Same applies to public spaces, be they online or in the real world. Ultimately ones rights end where another's begin and a choice has been made.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
Yes...A choice to NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOUR DATA!!

Quite stupid.....


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Certainly I'm entitled to my privacy, however if I walk into someone else's store (ie property) or website, then am I still entitled? Same applies to public spaces, be they online or in the real world. Ultimately ones rights end where another's begin and a choice has been made.

Blake

But then you have a relationship with that site - not with all the nameless sites they sell your data to. Or the sites they in turn sell it to.

And if I walk into a store - or visit a website - we have a shared space only for the duration of my visit, not forever after. We're not married, for pity's sake.

Plus if I walk into a store and make no purchase, there is absolutely no reason for them to know the first thing about me. I came in, I checked things out, I wasn't interested, and I never went back. It happens all the time. What it would not mean is that I'd want to then hear from other stores selling the same sorts of things. In fact, if they had somehow figured out who I was and passed the info on, I'd have them in court for invasion of privacy and stalking.

I don't buy the "a choice has been made" argument at all.


goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big
reply to Link Logger
dupe

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger
So, if I walk into Macy's over on the other side of this island where I have not been in years, Macy's is entitled to ask for identification at their door, make a photocopy of my driver's license, follow me around the store with cameras taking photos of everything I stop to look at, pick up, etc., taking photos of me in their dressing room so they know what I tried on, etc....this is perfectly fine with you?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Tracking cookies convey that kind of data?
Expand your moderator at work


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
reply to NormanS

 

Basically Norm YES!

They keep track of WHAT SITES YOU VISIT and when you return to the host site that issued the cookie,THEY COLLECT THE INFO!!!! -- Thus building a profile on you!! (THAT THEY CAN SELL TO ANYONE!!!!!!! -- Before you know it,your life isnt yours anymore!!)


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

So, if I walk into Macy's over on the other side of this island where I have not been in years, Macy's is entitled to ask for identification at their door, make a photocopy of my driver's license, follow me around the store with cameras taking photos of everything I stop to look at, pick up, etc., taking photos of me in their dressing room so they know what I tried on, etc....this is perfectly fine with you?

Must be with you as Macy's likely has more then one security camera recording in their store, and there is likely a sign at the door saying as much and yet you made a choice to enter.

Now to really play with your head, chuck in a little facial recognition and screw your license, I've got way more then that. Tie that into flickr and I've got your whole day tracked on the island as you likely appear in the background of more then a few pictures and thanks to those big mega resolution cameras everyone is using I can find you in more pictures then you would want to know about. Ohh do I love technology, there is a good reason why the NASA was given a couple surplus spy satellites are frankly they aren't needed anymore given endless stream of public high resolution pictures of pretty much everywhere on the planet and they are all public so expectations of privacy are null and void.

Blake
I love how Hawaiians talk about the other side of the island like its 10,000 miles away or something
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
How does Macy's security camera correlate my face with my name? Did the State of Hawaii illegally sell my driver's license information to Macy's which Macy's then has some computer try and put with some security camera picture? Macy's even dropped that crap about asking their customers to go to their website and vote for the salesclerk who helped them so they would make more money. That offended folks here (privacy invasion) and they stopped doing that and I don't believe Macy's is spending money and time trying to buy off the State of Hawaii and get folks drivers licenses and correlate that with some security camera pic for what reason anyway? Maybe I am a tourist in Kona for the day and I live in Japan and never plan to come to Hawaii again so I won't be in Macy's again...why would Macy's spend money in this manner? Macy's has security cameras to cut down on shoplifting not to profile everyone who walks in.

I am lost as to how you tie what facial recognition to Flckr? What does that garbage site have to do with anything? I don't visit it. I see anyone take my pic without my permission they will end up dead or at least in the hospital.

Your declaration that privacy is dead is exactly the sort of argument used in Germany before World War II. If you really believe this and are ok with it then you are my enemy. I do not believe privacy is dead. You want me to believe that so I will give up. That is evil on your part.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
No MELE if your careful with your info,PRIVACY IS NOT DEAD!!!!!

Most people willingly give up ANYTHING these days and its quite disgusting!!!!! (They are on facebook,etc)


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

In that case, however, I'd have come to know and trust the butcher personally over time, partly because I was transacting with the same, real-live person repeatedly.

Perhaps, but the family butcher of 1950 and the modern web-site of today sees YOU exactly the same way, as a walking or clicking source of income.

What I find odd is the belief that the tracking done is for nefarious purposes. It certainly might be, depending on where you are surfing, but for most places, it's just people trying to sell you crap, not to steal your identity and ruin your life.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Mele20
Next time you pay for something at Macy's I hope your using cash, as you should look around, note the camera? Its used to ensure the clerk isn't helping themselves to the till, but I tie the sales time into the camera record time, and if you didn't use cash, I've got your name (debit card, credit card) connected to a face and likely more.

Now I take that face and run it through Flickr, for example in the attached photo (16.1MP), don't care about the 2 girls in front, its the girl in the back left, next frame she looked toward the camera, bingo id'ed, complete with date time and GPS location. And you would do what, take their camera away, punch them out, and then I'd have a really good mug shot of you to base future facial recognition from as its a public beach and the picture is publicly posted on Flickr.

Now is this done for everyone, heck no, your country is broke and can't afford to do this (or maybe that is why your country is broke), but is it possible, hell ya. Would it be illegal for joe smoo to do this, not really as the only thing that might be touchy is how they connect the name to the face and there are lots of ways to do that legally as your name and face are hardly private information.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Dude111
said by Dude111:

They keep track of WHAT SITES YOU VISIT and when you return to the host site that issued the cookie,THEY COLLECT THE INFO!!!! -- Thus building a profile on you!! (THAT THEY CAN SELL TO ANYONE!!!!!!! --

I've looked at cookies. I've seen no names, addresses, phone numbers, or the like. Nothing more there than a UPC bar code on a package. So a cookie is little more than a pointer, an index. And, unless I have given up the requisite data (address and phone number to the site), they have ... (allow me to borrow your keyboard a moment) ... ZIP! NADA!! ZILCH!!!

Hatsune Miku has a more corporeal existence than I on most web sites.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdbNIDlZR1A

Before you know it,your life isnt yours anymore!!)

I still go where I want, do what I want; and am willing to bet quatloos that Bing doesn't know me at all.

P.S. That is a live audience, a live band on stage, and not doctored in some studio. See if you can figure out how they did it. Pretty slick trick! Maybe Disney will bring Jessica Rabbit to a live performance near you some year!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
said by NormanS:

I've looked at cookies. I've seen no names, addresses, phone numbers, or the like.

Good that you finally start looking... It's better than trying to bury head in a sand and keep denying that cookies are meaningless and you don't mind if everyone around start tracking you...

Purpose of cookies is to keep an unique ID (or several ID's), that will be send to web servers, when you visit their (and sometimes not only theirs) sites. All data, collected from you (like you mentioned), is kept in databases, running behind web servers, and linked to you using those unique ID's. There is no need to use cookies to save your name or address. It's actually quite simple concept, designed to identify you when you're visiting the web.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12
How much ya wanna bet Norman knows all this already,HE IS JUST TESTING US TO SEE IF WE DO!!

??