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PX Eliezer70
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Proposal to merge NS, NB, PEI.

Conservative Senators from Atlantic Canada are mounting a renewed push for a Maritime Union, proposing the merger of the three East Coast provinces into a single political entity to rescue the region’s stumbling economy.

Stephen Greene of Nova Scotia, John Wallace of New Brunswick and Mike Duffy of Prince Edward Island have put together a detailed proposal for a union of their three provinces to be unveiled this weekend, including an idea for the name of the new province and the mechanics of power and representation.

Mr. Greene is set to deliver a written proposal and speech in Halifax this weekend....

»news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/27···ovinces/

They say the name would be United Maritimes, and I guess that spells UM.

Which is my reaction: um......


FaxCap

join:2002-05-25
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I think it's actually a good idea to merge but United Maritimes???

Even though it has French "roots" I like Acadia.

FaxCap


Thane_Bitter
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reply to PX Eliezer70
No dumb idea goes unexplored.
Expand your moderator at work


nitzguy
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reply to PX Eliezer70

Re: Proposal to merge NS, NB, PEI.

We were going to pull the Turks and Caicos into Canada....this would be a good idea....I didn't quite understand why PEI was its own province anyways....other than physical geography...it didn't make sense otherwise.

Pool resources, I know there may be job cuts, but it'd make more sense from an efficiency standpoint, as you don't need 3 "DMVs" for example, consolidate Health and Education, it makes sense...they have a physical link now with the bridge...

I'm actually surprised it hadn't happenned a while ago.


vue666
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1 recommendation

Atlantica is a name they have proposed in the past... There is also an idea to include Newfoundland & Labrador in the merger... But what benefit would it be for Newfoundland???


ekster
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reply to PX Eliezer70
It doesn't sound like a bad idea... but UM sounds terrible to me. We already have United States and United Mexican States! Not everything needs to be named united...

MaynardKrebs
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reply to vue666
said by vue666:

But what benefit would it be for Newfoundland???

Politically surrounding Quebec?

IamGimli

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reply to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

Pool resources, I know there may be job cuts, but it'd make more sense from an efficiency standpoint, as you don't need 3 "DMVs" for example, consolidate Health and Education, it makes sense...they have a physical link now with the bridge...

The very same arguments can be used to justify getting rid of provinces altogether and centralizing everything nationally. Hell, let's get rid of cities and townships too while we're at it!

I'd call it New Scotia Island.


El Quintron
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reply to ekster
said by ekster:

It doesn't sound like a bad idea... but UM sounds terrible to me. We already have United States and United Mexican States! Not everything needs to be named united...

I doubt maritimers would go for it, if only because Nova Scotia, would probably end up running the show. The have the biggest population and are much more liberal than either NB or PEI for starters.

It's an interesting idea, but you'd have a tough sell on your hands.
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Gone
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said by El Quintron:

I doubt maritimers would go for it, if only because Nova Scotia, would probably end up running the show. The have the biggest population and are much more liberal than either NB or PEI for starters.

You could subdivide internally and allow a limited amount of home rule among what were formerly provinces, while centralizing revenue generation and the big costs like health care, education and infrastructure.

It's actually a pretty good idea, it's just figuring out a way to implement it that would be killer.


Devanchya
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If Maine would join in, it would be a perfect solution

Throw in some of Vermont and New Hampster, or cut some of Quebec out and you have a very good idea
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El Quintron
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reply to Gone
said by Gone:

You could subdivide internally and allow a limited amount of home rule among what were formerly provinces, while centralizing revenue generation and the big costs like health care, education and infrastructure.

It would be a good idea to maintain some regional independence, seeing as the areas are pretty varied in both needs and economic activity.

I'll ask my mom when I talk to her this weekend and see how long the conversation can hold.
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nitzguy
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reply to IamGimli
said by IamGimli:

said by nitzguy:

Pool resources, I know there may be job cuts, but it'd make more sense from an efficiency standpoint, as you don't need 3 "DMVs" for example, consolidate Health and Education, it makes sense...they have a physical link now with the bridge...

The very same arguments can be used to justify getting rid of provinces altogether and centralizing everything nationally. Hell, let's get rid of cities and townships too while we're at it!

I'd call it New Scotia Island.

Wow, pull what I say completely out of context...

I hate when people do that. You have a "province" with a population size of LESS than where I live in Sudbury Ontario...population 165,000...with its own Health care system, education system, roads, etc...

Does that make financial/logical sense? Together the population would add up to about 1.8 million people, just a bit bigger than manitoba and you'd be reducing duplication 3x...we do this in Ontario, maybe not in the centre of the universe, but when the population doesn't justify something, things happen and things get centralized and things get consolidated.

You know what though? Lets get rid of cities, not sure about townships, maybe that's somewhere else but not where I live.

I'm touting the benefits of the system, 1 system of taxation, 1 place to have all of that done, again, duplication removed where there is excess capacity for sure for efficiencies, but again it'd be up to them of course, I was just saying it was a good idea....

PX Eliezer70
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Mergers are always a tough sell.

People are very proud of their identities.

Here in NJ we have lots of small towns that won't merge. For example, the Borough of Deal has 750 people, but has its own police and fire departments etc. There are similar small towns nearby but none want to give up their names or small police departments etc.

Geographically you might think that New Hampshire and Vermont should merge, but the states have very different political cultures.

PX Eliezer70
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reply to Devanchya
said by Devanchya:

Throw in some of Vermont and New Hampster....

I bought a new hampster at the pet store today....


Gone
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reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

Here in NJ we have lots of small towns that won't merge. For example, the Borough of Deal has 750 people, but has its own police and fire departments etc. There are similar small towns nearby but none want to give up their names or small police departments etc.

If that municipality were Ontario, Quebec or BC, it would have been annexed by or amalgamated with another municipality a *long* time ago. I don't understand how municipalities like that are allowed to exist in US states without the state stepping in and forcing some sort of restructuring, especially when many US states are in dire financial straights.

There's been talk of consolidating Buffalo with Erie County for decades. Same with Rochester and Monroe County. Yet, despite all this "talk" there's been zero restructuring at all, not even incremental municipal mergers such as towns merging constituent villages into them. Were this Ontario, they would have been amalgamated the moment it became economically viable.


dennilfloss
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reply to PX Eliezer70
I spent the 80s in Atlantic Canada and I kinda like the idea. Would call it Acadia though.

PX Eliezer70
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reply to Gone
New Jersey's always been a state with very strong home rule traditions....

In 1898 the New York State legislature forced a massive merger of many towns and cities involving 5 counties, ending up with what is now called The City of New York.... It's been a mixed result.

Now, as I understand it there were massive mergers on the island of Montreal, then some of that was rolled back? Montreal governments are harder to figure out than organic chemistry or calculus.


Gone
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Some municipalities demalgamated but it's not true independence as there is infrastructure that is still the responsibility of the City of Montreal and the municipality needs to pay Montreal to maintain it. There's a rather strong movement in Kawartha Lakes, ON to demalgamate into Victoria County and its constituent towns and townships, but as it needs provincial approval it is unlikely it will ever happen.

Still, as complex as Montreal is, it pales in comparison to the duplication and complexity of the multi-level government structure in the State of New York. While the deepest level of municipal government in Ontario is 2 (county/regional and then city/town/village/township), New York has levels that are three levels deep, with "villages" being not only being part of the county, but also part of the town. Ontario had something similar at one time, we called them "Police Villages." We haven't had them since the 50s or 60s.

PX Eliezer70
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I'm impressed that you know of that!

Still, it is all what you are used to....I grew up with that.

Only a small proportion of total NYS population lives in incorporated villages. And although an incorporated village is still a part of a town (what other states call townships) the town does little if anything inside the boundaries of an incorporated village.

Back to Canadian content:

I am wondering how successful the 1999 amalgamation that resulted in today's City of Ottawa, has been.


Gone
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said by PX Eliezer70:

Only a small proportion of total NYS population lives in incorporated villages. And although an incorporated village is still a part of a town (what other states call townships) the town does little if anything inside the boundaries of an incorporated village.

Actually, villages can be part of more than one town

But you'd be surprised. Tonawanda does all of the traffic lights inside Kenmore, but Kenmore has their own police service separate from the Town of Tonawanda Police. But this shouldn't be confused with the City of Tonawanda which is completely separate from the town and has no villages (as a village can't exist inside a town), yet the city is five times smaller than the town and has the same population as the Village of Kenmore. The City of Tonawanda, of course, has a police department of its own. This happens all the while Erie County has a sheriff's department that does law enforcement of its own.

Seriously, the duplication is silly. Just get rid of the villages, they're a waste of money. To which, after one sees some of the silliness that exists in the US, one can't help but think how much more efficient the maritime provinces would be if they formed some sort of union.

PX Eliezer70
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said by Gone:

Actually, villages can be part of more than one town

And a town and an incorporated village can be exactly the same, and have the same government and boundaries. One example is Harrison, New York. By making the whole town an incorporated village, any other villages are pre-empted.

said by Gone:

But you'd be surprised.

I wouldn't be, I grew up with it.

said by Gone:

Seriously, the duplication is silly. Just get rid of the villages, they're a waste of money. To which, after one sees some of the silliness that exists in the US, one can't help but think how much more efficient the maritime provinces would be if they formed some sort of union.

But what you describe is specific to New York State, and even there, to a small part of New York's population. Most New Yorkers live in cities, and even of the ones in the towns, most live outside of incorporated villages.

To some extent there are similar issues in New Jersey and Michigan. Otherwise, local government in the US is reasonably rational.

Along the east coast BTW, town governments dominate in New England, county governments dominate in the south, but towns and counties share power in the mid-Atlantic states.


Gone
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Yeah. Counties exist in nothing more but name in Connecticut. Same in New Brunswick.

Still, what you guys call rational for municipal government is not rational by (most) Canadian standards

MaynardKrebs
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reply to PX Eliezer70
said by PX Eliezer70:

I am wondering how successful the 1999 amalgamation that resulted in today's City of Ottawa, has been.

Care to look at Toronto's forced amalgamation?
We get suburban bozo's like Rob Ford who don't understand the realities of anything other than industrial parks and ranting how people who use transit are evil.

PX Eliezer70
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Well, I hear that he has a hard time getting through the bus doors.


vue666
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But will Halifax, Fredericton or Charlottetown be the capital? Or perhaps select a new capital like Moncton, Truro (aka little TO), Summerside...


Gone
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Moncton would probably work, if not for the fact that it's Moncton.


J E F F
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reply to Devanchya
said by Devanchya:

If Maine would join in, it would be a perfect solution

Throw in some of Vermont and New Hampster, or cut some of Quebec out and you have a very good idea

Not as unlikely as you think.

Northern Quebec goes on it's own...name it Quebec, they want their country, give it to them.
Southern Quebec and Maine merge, name it Mainland Quebec
The Maritimes merge. Call it Acadian.
Newfoundland & Labrador, well, they stay the same.

The Obama doesn't care about the north eastern states anyway, maybe we'll pick-up some other states as well.
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PX Eliezer70
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said by J E F F:

The Obama doesn't care about the north eastern states anyway, maybe we'll pick-up some other states as well.

The six New England states went for Obama, even conservative NH.

OTOH you guys could take Texas. Some people there want to leave anyway. And there is a lot in common between Texas and Alberta....

Hey, what about Saint Pierre and Miquelon? Maybe they can be convinced to join prosperous Canada rather than stay with a France that hardly knows they exist.