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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
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reply to PX Eliezer7

Re: Proposal to merge NS, NB, PEI.

said by PX Eliezer7:

Here in NJ we have lots of small towns that won't merge. For example, the Borough of Deal has 750 people, but has its own police and fire departments etc. There are similar small towns nearby but none want to give up their names or small police departments etc.

If that municipality were Ontario, Quebec or BC, it would have been annexed by or amalgamated with another municipality a *long* time ago. I don't understand how municipalities like that are allowed to exist in US states without the state stepping in and forcing some sort of restructuring, especially when many US states are in dire financial straights.

There's been talk of consolidating Buffalo with Erie County for decades. Same with Rochester and Monroe County. Yet, despite all this "talk" there's been zero restructuring at all, not even incremental municipal mergers such as towns merging constituent villages into them. Were this Ontario, they would have been amalgamated the moment it became economically viable.

PX Eliezer7
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New Jersey's always been a state with very strong home rule traditions....

In 1898 the New York State legislature forced a massive merger of many towns and cities involving 5 counties, ending up with what is now called The City of New York.... It's been a mixed result.

Now, as I understand it there were massive mergers on the island of Montreal, then some of that was rolled back? Montreal governments are harder to figure out than organic chemistry or calculus.



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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Some municipalities demalgamated but it's not true independence as there is infrastructure that is still the responsibility of the City of Montreal and the municipality needs to pay Montreal to maintain it. There's a rather strong movement in Kawartha Lakes, ON to demalgamate into Victoria County and its constituent towns and townships, but as it needs provincial approval it is unlikely it will ever happen.

Still, as complex as Montreal is, it pales in comparison to the duplication and complexity of the multi-level government structure in the State of New York. While the deepest level of municipal government in Ontario is 2 (county/regional and then city/town/village/township), New York has levels that are three levels deep, with "villages" being not only being part of the county, but also part of the town. Ontario had something similar at one time, we called them "Police Villages." We haven't had them since the 50s or 60s.


PX Eliezer7
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I'm impressed that you know of that!

Still, it is all what you are used to....I grew up with that.

Only a small proportion of total NYS population lives in incorporated villages. And although an incorporated village is still a part of a town (what other states call townships) the town does little if anything inside the boundaries of an incorporated village.

Back to Canadian content:

I am wondering how successful the 1999 amalgamation that resulted in today's City of Ottawa, has been.



Gone
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said by PX Eliezer7:

Only a small proportion of total NYS population lives in incorporated villages. And although an incorporated village is still a part of a town (what other states call townships) the town does little if anything inside the boundaries of an incorporated village.

Actually, villages can be part of more than one town

But you'd be surprised. Tonawanda does all of the traffic lights inside Kenmore, but Kenmore has their own police service separate from the Town of Tonawanda Police. But this shouldn't be confused with the City of Tonawanda which is completely separate from the town and has no villages (as a village can't exist inside a town), yet the city is five times smaller than the town and has the same population as the Village of Kenmore. The City of Tonawanda, of course, has a police department of its own. This happens all the while Erie County has a sheriff's department that does law enforcement of its own.

Seriously, the duplication is silly. Just get rid of the villages, they're a waste of money. To which, after one sees some of the silliness that exists in the US, one can't help but think how much more efficient the maritime provinces would be if they formed some sort of union.

PX Eliezer7
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said by Gone:

Actually, villages can be part of more than one town

And a town and an incorporated village can be exactly the same, and have the same government and boundaries. One example is Harrison, New York. By making the whole town an incorporated village, any other villages are pre-empted.

said by Gone:

But you'd be surprised.

I wouldn't be, I grew up with it.

said by Gone:

Seriously, the duplication is silly. Just get rid of the villages, they're a waste of money. To which, after one sees some of the silliness that exists in the US, one can't help but think how much more efficient the maritime provinces would be if they formed some sort of union.

But what you describe is specific to New York State, and even there, to a small part of New York's population. Most New Yorkers live in cities, and even of the ones in the towns, most live outside of incorporated villages.

To some extent there are similar issues in New Jersey and Michigan. Otherwise, local government in the US is reasonably rational.

Along the east coast BTW, town governments dominate in New England, county governments dominate in the south, but towns and counties share power in the mid-Atlantic states.


Gone
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Yeah. Counties exist in nothing more but name in Connecticut. Same in New Brunswick.

Still, what you guys call rational for municipal government is not rational by (most) Canadian standards


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

I am wondering how successful the 1999 amalgamation that resulted in today's City of Ottawa, has been.

Care to look at Toronto's forced amalgamation?
We get suburban bozo's like Rob Ford who don't understand the realities of anything other than industrial parks and ranting how people who use transit are evil.

PX Eliezer7
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Well, I hear that he has a hard time getting through the bus doors.



vue666
I love Lanny Barbie
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But will Halifax, Fredericton or Charlottetown be the capital? Or perhaps select a new capital like Moncton, Truro (aka little TO), Summerside...



Gone
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Moncton would probably work, if not for the fact that it's Moncton.