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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Ian

Re: ok a strange topic: Dissolving Grandma. Part Deux

said by Ian:

But I think in what way a person wants their body disposed of ought to be up to them to decide

People who want to dictate their own funeral and burial/cremation/whatever plans are selfish on a level to which I simply cannot comprehend.

Funerals and interment aren't for the person who died. They're for the people left behind.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Gone:

Funerals and interment aren't for the person who died. They're for the people left behind.

Peoples wishes (the dead people) should come first. This is only respect, no?

After a viewing, does it really mater if they are buried in dirt, water, burned or dissolved? Or does it really affect the "closure" of the loved one left behind when the "loved one" didn't see mom's remains disposed of per their own selfish wishes for their own closure instead of the dead ones true wishes? Hmm

Two sides, but I think the dead persons wish (if any, if affordable etc) comes first.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by hm :

Peoples wishes (the dead people) should come first. This is only respect, no?

Respect for what, exactly? You're dead. Gone. Expired. No longer part of this Earth. Maybe you're in heaven, maybe you're in eternal oblivion, but either way you won't care. The only thing that matters are the people left behind, their memories of you and how they want to celebrate your life and continue to remember you while they're still living. Telling them how they can mourn and remember you after you're gone is nothing more than attempting to maintain a certain self-centred arrogance from beyond the grave, and something I refuse to be a part of.

My wishes are quite simple - whatever my loved ones want. If they want to dissolve, flush me down the toilet and then use whatever money I may have left aside for something else, so be it. I'll be dead and gone and won't care, so my "wishes" are of little relevance. What they do is not for me to decide. It's for them. That's what respect is all about, not the other way around.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Gone:

said by hm :

Peoples wishes (the dead people) should come first. This is only respect, no?

Respect for what, exactly?

ok


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

Funerals and interment aren't for the person who died. They're for the people left behind.

So if my loved ones want to sell my dead body to a traveling carnival to mummify and make a ring-toss game out of, that's a-OK, regardless of my own wishes on it?

I think the law is very much on the side of you getting to decide your own arrangements, and if you didn't, for your loved ones to do so. If they think it's a-ok to light on fire, or to flush them down the drain, that's their issue, not mine. It's a discussion for the family involved.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
reply to Gone

I'm with Gone on this one. I don't care if my loved ones dump my body in a ditch when I'm gone. In fact, I encourage it. I have no further use for my body at that point.
--
Tom



hm

@videotron.ca

said by TLS2000:

I'm with Gone on this one. I don't care if my loved ones dump my body in a ditch when I'm gone. In fact, I encourage it. I have no further use for my body at that point.

But, that's what you so wish. So your wishes will be respected.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to TLS2000

said by TLS2000:

I'm with Gone on this one. I don't care if my loved ones dump my body in a ditch when I'm gone. In fact, I encourage it. I have no further use for my body at that point.

That's your belief, and I hope you've let your loved ones know your wishes. This is a case, of people having a diversity of opinion on it.

From the original cited article.

quote:
"We believe this process, which enables a portion of human remains to be flushed down a drain, to be undignified," Patrick McGee, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Manchester, once told USA Today.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

So if my loved ones want to sell my dead body to a traveling carnival to mummify and make a ring-toss game out of, that's a-OK, regardless of my own wishes on it?

I think the bigger question is why do you even care? It's no longer about you. It's about them.

Telling your family what they can and cannot do to remember you after you're long and dead is nothing short of self-serving and, indeed, disrespectful of the people who are left behind. It's them who are remembering you, not you remembering yourself.

Furthermore, legally, you have no right to dictate what happens to you after you die. It is strictly up to your family. The only right you have is to dispose of your assets, and even then there things that can cause your wishes to be overrideen. When it comes to the funeral and internment of the body, your family can to put you into a cannon and shoot you off into outer space there's nothing you can do from beyond the grave to stop them.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

No, it's about the law, and the right of the deceased to have their will executed as desired. Period. The living have no say about it.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by Juggernaut:

No, it's about the law, and the right of the deceased to have their will executed as desired. Period. The living have no say about it.

Wrong. The will only deals with the disposition of assets. You have no legal entitlement to dictate your own funeral plans. You can express your wishes to your family, but they are not bound by them.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

That statement requires a legal citation. I don't buy it.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by Juggernaut:

That statement requires a legal citation. I don't buy it.

From the horses mouth, perhaps?

said by »www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/f···s.aspx#1 :
Who has the legal authority to decide what will happen to the body of a deceased person?

In order of priority it is:

An estate trustee (also called an executor or executrix) who is named in the deceased person's will (or, an administrator appointed by the court)
A spouse
Adult children.
If you are an estate trustee, expect to provide photo ID and proof of your authority (like a will or court order) before you make arrangements.
I am sure other provinces in Canada and even states in the US are similar.

You can name who you want responsible for the funeral and the handling of the will, but you have no legal authority to dictate exactly how they proceed with those plans.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

It's also worth pointing out that by the time a last will is read, the funeral will be long over.

In other words - they get to decide, not you.



Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Gone

The executor or executrix, has a legal obligation to follow the will (desires) of the deceased.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.



Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

So if my loved ones want to sell my dead body to a traveling carnival to mummify and make a ring-toss game out of, that's a-OK, regardless of my own wishes on it?

I think the bigger question is why do you even care? It's no longer about you. It's about them.

Telling your family what they can and cannot do to remember you after you're long and dead is nothing short of self-serving and, indeed, disrespectful of the people who are left behind.

It's them who are remembering you, not you remembering yourself.

Your own personal opinions. And opinions not necessarily shared by others. Suppose you had religious beliefs that were that however "whole" your body was in the weeks, months, or years after death, would dictate how you would be in some sort of after-life? This is actually one of the reasons why people don't wish to donate organs after death. Should your family have the the right to deviate from your religious beliefs?

said by Gone:

Furthermore, legally, you have no right to dictate what happens to you after you die. It is strictly up to your family.

Your knowledge of the law on this is clearly deficient. If in the form of a legal will, you designate what is to happen to your remains, your executor (who may or may not be a family member) is not only responsible for, but is legally-bound to follow your wishes to the letter, so long as your wishes were legal and funded by your estate. As with anything else in a legal will, it would be up to the family to challenge the will in court if they had ideas for disposing of your body at odds with your own.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

Wrong. The will only deals with the disposition of assets. You have no legal entitlement to dictate your own funeral plans. You can express your wishes to your family, but they are not bound by them.

Dunno about that.
I know people who per-arranged and it's all taken care of from the time they drop dead. The persons wishes are adhered to strictly, per contract.

In a second case, w/o the family even knowing, I know another who arranged with a uni to take her body. As soon as it got to the hospital, staff told family, you have 3-hrs that's it. She is in room such and such. I was late coming from Ottawa, they kept her on ice (so to speak) for me an extra hour (they were being kind).

No say.

All you get is a thank you note, cremation done for free, and maybe her ashes if you want them from whatever body part they cremated (who knows where the rest ends up, and some end up in Dog training school in Ottawa for RCMP dogs.. find the head boy).

A legal document like a will is no different. If someone wanted to they could go to court to force your last wishes. Or are you saying a will is not a legal document? Or are you saying how you will your body has no legal standing in Canada or the prov's? Think you may be wrong here. But anyhow, what does it matter. To go against someone wishes is just wrong... unless financial circumstances dictate otherwise, or if you are stuck paying it.

Now most people have no such contract(s) or even a will for that matter. And many people, as exampled above, just don't care either way. In these cases, yeah, do what you want.

But anyhow, I don't think there is a right or wrong (unless going against someone wishes and the financial means are left for their wishes). It's all open choice and money. So in this circumstance there is no right and wrong. Flush, burn, bury, fish-food... all gravy.

So does flushing grandma and maybe having her pass through a water treatment plant to end up in your pot of soup that you're making gross some people out here?


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
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Mississauga, ON
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reply to hm

said by hm :

said by TLS2000:

I'm with Gone on this one. I don't care if my loved ones dump my body in a ditch when I'm gone. In fact, I encourage it. I have no further use for my body at that point.

But, that's what you so wish. So your wishes will be respected.

Or they could spend untold thousands of dollars. My point was it doesn't matter, because I'll be dead. I'd rather that they didn't waste their money on a funeral, but if they feel the need to do so it's their choice.
--
Tom


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Juggernaut

said by Juggernaut:

The executor or executrix, has a legal obligation to follow the will (desires) of the deceased.

... and funeral arrangements are not part of a will, because a will is dealt with weeks - and sometimes months - after a funeral has passed.

You can pick an executor you trust and express your wishes to them, but they have the final say. Like I said, they can shoot you off into space and there's nothing you can do from beyond the grave to stop them.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

Really... I've read my fathers will (he's long gone), and my mothers as well. She's alive right now. I am the executor of her will.

My fathers will was opened by a lawyer upon his death, and his wishes were carried out by the executor. The lawyer made sure his final wishes were carried out to the letter.
--
I'm not anti-social, I just don't like stupid people.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

1 edit
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Your knowledge of the law on this is clearly deficient. If in the form of a legal will, you designate what is to happen to your remains, your executor (who may or may not be a family member) is not only responsible for, but is legally-bound to follow your wishes to the letter, so long as your wishes were legal and funded by your estate. As with anything else in a legal will, it would be up to the family to challenge the will in court if they had ideas for disposing of your body at odds with your own.

Bzzzt wrong. Funeral arrangements are not part of a will. Hell, a will isn't even dealt with until long after a funeral has passed. A will *only* deals with disposition of assets - in other words, you pay for your funeral out of your estate, but beyond that you cannot legally dictate the service or how your remains are dealt with. You can express your wishes to your executor, but they are not legally bound to do exactly what you want. It's an identical situation as with organ donation.

For someone who claims that *my* knowledge of the law is deficient, you may wish to educate yourself on this topic first. Think about it - if funeral arrangements and body disposal were legally binding, what would happen if someone's will contained some sort of funeral or disposal provision that was logistically or financially impossible for the estate to perform? You think any of that would be legally binding? It's not. It's up to the executor. You have no say - end of story.

If the idea of being able to tell people how they are entitled to celebrate your life after you die brings you comfort, so be it. It doesn't mean that they are bound to do what you want, though.

Edit - the custody of minor children are also dealt with in a will, but since we're talking finances I figured that was a given.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Juggernaut

said by Juggernaut:

My fathers will was opened by a lawyer upon his death, and his wishes were carried out by the executor. The lawyer made sure his final wishes were carried out to the letter.

Was his lawyer the executor? That's not unheard of. If his lawyer wasn't, he wouldn't have had any legal authority to dictate anything.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

Your knowledge of the law on this is clearly deficient. If in the form of a legal will, you designate what is to happen to your remains, your executor (who may or may not be a family member) is not only responsible for, but is legally-bound to follow your wishes to the letter, so long as your wishes were legal and funded by your estate. As with anything else in a legal will, it would be up to the family to challenge the will in court if they had ideas for disposing of your body at odds with your own.

Bzzzt wrong. Funeral arrangements are not part of a will. Hell, a will isn't even dealt with until long after a funeral has passed. A will *only* deals with disposition of assets - in other words, you pay for your funeral out of your estate, but beyond that you cannot legally dictate the service or how your remains are dealt with. You can express your wishes to your executor, but they are not legally bound to do exactly what you want. It's an identical situation as with organ donation.

Yes, you're completely, and wholly wrong on this. The very first duties of an executor are to locate and read the will. They then arrange the funeral according to the wishes of the person who wrote the will. If pre-arrangements were made (and they often are) those arrangements will happen. That this happens weeks, months or years before the estate is finally closed, is irrelevant.
said by Gone:

Think about it - if funeral arrangements and body disposal were legally binding, what would happen if someone's will contained some sort of funeral or disposal provision that was logistically or financially impossible for the estate to perform?

I have a suspicion that this doesn't come up much. An executor is bound to do what the will specifies to the best of their abilities. And if that's to bury you in a crystal mausoleum instead of being flushed down the drain, the executor will honour your wishes over those of your loved ones. As they are legally bound to.

Disagree with that? That's fine. Irrelevant, but fine.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

jaberi

join:2010-08-13

Ian, or anyone ...... how long after death is the will open to be settled?..what's the probate thing mean?



koira
Keep Fighting Michael
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Reviews:
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reply to Ian

funeral wishes can be expressed in a will but the problem with this being that the will may not be read until after the funeral. if there are specific wishes its best they be left clearly with someone such as a spouse, and or close friends to ensure the details of the funeral are not missed.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Yes, you're completely, and wholly wrong on this. The very first duties of an executor are to locate and read the will. They then arrange the funeral according to the wishes of the person who wrote the will. If pre-arrangements were made (and they often are) those arrangements will happen. That this happens weeks, months or years before the estate is finally closed, is irrelevant.

It's funny seeing people who swear they are correct actually be quite wrong.

said by »www.cba.org/bc/public_media/wills/178.aspx :
Your first decision as executor may be about funeral arrangements
The funeral is your responsibility, although you’ll want to consider the wishes of the deceased person and their relatives. The funeral parlor will ordinarily order you copies of the death certificate. You may take the funeral bills to the bank where the deceased kept an account. If there’s enough money in the account, the bank will give you a cheque from that account to pay the expenses.
There it is in black and white. Canadian sourced, with the same law in all provinces. The executor has the final say, not you. For the last time - the actual funeral service and the disposal of one's body ARE NOT INCLUDED IN A WILL!

That entire document outlines the rights of an executor. Read it over, you might learn something. Having said that, are we done, or are you going to continue arguing about a topic for which you were and continue to remain incorrect?


Ian
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ON
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reply to jaberi

said by jaberi:

Ian, or anyone ...... how long after death is the will open to be settled?..what's the probate thing mean?

I'm no expert, but I think it's wildly dependent on the complexity of the estate and whether or not anything is contested or not.

For example, if your estate is 100% cash, quickly. If its a web of complex securities and real estate partnerships over 6 continents, years.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to koira

said by koira:

funeral wishes can be expressed in a will but the problem with this being that the will may not be read until after the funeral. if there are specific wishes its best they be left clearly with someone such as a spouse, and or close friends to ensure the details of the funeral are not missed.

Absolutely, but none of that is legally binding.

This is why if you do have some sort of final wishes that you pick your executor very carefully and not only ensure that it is someone you trust, but that they know those wishes. Still, as I said, funeral arrangements aren't for the person who died. They're for the ones left behind. Trying to dictate what they can and cannot do (including who is invited and what not) is taking arrogance to a level beyond anything reasonable.

Ultimately, the issue of funerals is the same as organ donation. No matter how many times you sign an organ donation card, your family can still say no. Just the same, even if you outline your funeral plans in detail the executor of your estate still has the final say.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to koira

said by koira:

funeral wishes can be expressed in a will but the problem with this being that the will may not be read until after the funeral.

The first thing that an executor is supposed to do after the person dies is to locate and read that will. That doesn't mean that they have to instantly track down every person in it and communicate the contents. The second thing is to arrange the funeral.

What you're describing is an occurrence where for some reason the first thing can't happen in a timely fashion and the second thing somehow leapfrogs it. I doubt that is a routine thing. People need to make travel/work arrangements. Instant funerals aren't that common. You're also supposing that the deceased made no prior communication about funeral arrangements prior to their death.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


koira
Keep Fighting Michael
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reply to Ian

said by Ian:

said by jaberi:

Ian, or anyone ...... how long after death is the will open to be settled?..what's the probate thing mean?

I'm no expert, but I think it's wildly dependent on the complexity of the estate and whether or not anything is contested or not.

For example, if your estate is 100% cash, quickly. If its a web of complex securities and real estate partnerships over 6 continents, years.

yes jaberi, the sharing or settlement of a will is a very complicated question. such as if there are others contesting the will, or other legal proceedings there is no time limit for closure. probate is a separate topic, the will can go to probate which is acceptance by the courts taht this is the final will but actual distribution and settlement can be delayed by those who feel they are entitled to a share. each case is different. do some research on line , there is a lot of examples and if you need to get specific consult a lawyer. you can get some initial consultation at little or no cost refer to The Law Society of Upper Canada