Topic 'Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!' in forum 'Canadian Chat' - dslreports.com

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Wed, 05 Dec 2012 13:08:19 EDT

booj posted :

It goes even further. The banks will loan you anything if it's insured by the CMHC. I wouldn't be surprised if the taxpayer is left holding the bag for some of the defunct mortgages on these condos.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:52:33 EDT

WallyThacker posted :

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

You'd be surprised. If you walked in off the street with no history what you said would probably be correct. On the other hand, if you have a long-standing relationship with a bank and have a history of turning a profit on your business ventures and asked them for a mortgage to invest in something like this, they probably approve it the very same day.

Here's the truth.

The banks will loan you anything if the loan is secured by tangible property outside of the loan itself.

If you want to teach gay midgets in Kenya how to ice skate down Mt. Everest and have, say, a lien free house, most banks will happily loan you money.

So, every day banks make loans to people who are guaranteed to fail but the bank is guaranteed to recover their loan.

That's how it works.
--
"Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things, and many of them were driven to these crimes by a horrible force, called MUSIC" Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Wed, 05 Dec 2012 06:42:05 EDT

Xstar_Lumini posted :

said by Warez_Zealot:

IMO You should never buy a place before it's constructed. Especially under these circumstances.

That's how it is, if you don't then you will be left without bread because there's 100 guys ebind you that will.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 21:05:33 EDT

Gone posted :

said by Ian:

Or to sign a deal contingent on financing that gives you a way out if you can't get it.

That's pretty much SOP. You need to be a major retard to go into something without that kind of clause.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:40:49 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Warez_Zealot:

IMO You should never buy a place before it's constructed. Especially under these circumstances.

Actually, I think the main lesson here is to arrange financing on a Real Estate deal before you sign papers. Or to sign a deal contingent on financing that gives you a way out if you can't get it. To me this seemed to a case of people coming up with whatever cash they could to put a down payment in, then they signed papers to come up with a balance at a later date. Don't do this. If you can't take the deal to the bank, and to sell THEM on a mortgage before you sign papers making yourself responsible to pay, then don't.

I suspect 99% of the owners of private properties in the tower did it the right way, or they already had the money.

Also, take a look at what's being proposed! Really take a look at it. Was Talon at any point guaranteeing that your room was going to be rented out at $600 a night? Without seeing the paperwork, and assuming that they have lawyers, I'm guessing.......not. So if you can't ride out a period of months or years where your room is either vacant or renting for a lot less, don't do this deal.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:06:05 EDT

Dustyn posted : whoops...wrong thread... :p

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:40:37 EDT

Warez_Zealot posted : IMO You should never buy a place before it's constructed. Especially under these circumstances.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:01:37 EDT

Ian posted :

said by jaberi:

said by cpsycho:

If Trumps name is on it, you better stay away. The guy is a scam artist.

the guy is a businessman....still wondering if he got to be president would he have fixed US economy, anyone care to say?

If Trump got to be President, there would be a fresh coat of cheap gold-paint on some clay bricks in Fort Knox, and some flashy new buildings. At the end of four years, bankruptcy would be declared, and a joint holding company consisting of the Chinese and The Trump Organization would somehow have an ownership interest in whatever assets were left after the firesale.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 22:47:08 EDT

Xstar_Lumini posted :

said by jaberi:

said by cpsycho:

If Trumps name is on it, you better stay away. The guy is a scam artist.

the guy is a businessman....still wondering if he got to be president would he have fixed US economy, anyone care to say?

What makes you think that one snivelling corporate moron would make the U.S. economy better? 50 of them ruin it in 2007, does Leahman Bros and JP Morgan ring a bell to you?

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:48:04 EDT

Gone posted :

said by Ian:

The world? No, but you seem to be trolling me at each and every opportunity, for whatever reason.

Oh brother. Paranoid much? :uhh:

It may come as a shock to you Ian, but you're really not that important to me.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:39:22 EDT

jaberi posted :

said by cpsycho:

If Trumps name is on it, you better stay away. The guy is a scam artist.

the guy is a businessman....still wondering if he got to be president would he have fixed US economy, anyone care to say?

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:17:19 EDT

anon posted :

said by Ian:

Even the Joe-Blow blue-collar investors here should have wondered "Why is that?". The obvious answer was "Because ...

"There's a sucker born every minute".

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:13:17 EDT

cpsycho posted : If Trumps name is on it, you better stay away. The guy is a scam artist.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 19:42:00 EDT

elwoodblues posted : Its not a generalization, it's been noted in the paper that these "investors" can't get a mortgage.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:40:02 EDT

Ian posted :

said by TLS2000:

I don't see him trolling you here. He's correctly engaging in debate about how banks will provide business loans, which you started.

I take exception to being called being pissy, when all I was doing was replying in that vein. Tomato/To-mah-to.

But fair enough. Possible that I'm carrying annoyance from behaviour in numerous other threads here in an unwarranted fashion.

I for one, wasn't engaging in a giant debate over commercial financing. I was talking about the people (i.e. the topic of the thread) with little collateral trying to get a loan to finance a room when the numbers are based off of hotel room rates from an alternate reality. It should be no surprise to anyone that a bank isn't going to give a person a commercial loan with only the property itself as collateral when the income from that property can't even cover the interest on the loan, and that the value of the property itself is likely way over-priced. A bank is going to say... "OK, so this guy defaults, and I have to sell this room. Can I get the $750,000 back in a timely fashion by selling it?" No? OK then, loan denied. Hence here we are.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:31:13 EDT

TLS2000 posted : I don't see him trolling you here. He's correctly engaging in debate about how banks will provide business loans, which you started.
--
Tom

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:28:04 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Gone:

No need to get pissy, Ian. The world isn't out to get you.

The world? No, but you seem to be trolling me at each and every opportunity, for whatever reason.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:25:06 EDT

Gone posted :

said by agtle :

I'm not sure relationship or past business profits would have made a difference. The fact is, the commercial banks, unlike the "investors" in this project, actually examined the numbers and read (and understood) the prospectus, and saw that they were not realistic. Regardless of your relationship with the financial institution, there has to be *some* potential for profits, and the banks saw that the numbers being floated by Talon (gotta love that name!) were ridiculous.

I'd go so far as to say that payola at the local (read: branch) level of the bank might have been involved, but of course there's no proof, nor most likely will there ever be.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:21:01 EDT

Gone posted : Dude, I was just pointing out that your assessment of what a bank would do when presented with a commercial mortgage was one-sided not as cut and dry as your comment made it out to be. That's why exceptions exactly like this occur. If a bank thinks they'll make money on a commercial endevour, they'll give out the money - end of story. Relationships and gut feelings from loan officers are a big part of the process in getting a commercial mortgage. The same logic one would use when thinking about how a mortgage is granted for a house doesn't apply in the commercial world.

No need to get pissy, Ian. The world isn't out to get you.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:17:07 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

Spiffy. Is that what we're talking about here in this thread? Nope.

said by Ian:
when the business plan for that commercial venture is "I want to buy a hotel room. I'll be paying the lending costs from the people that shell out $600 a night to stay in the room."......the banks aren't going to be lining up to do so.

Did you demonstrate any knowledge about what is involved in getting a commercial mortgage before you made a blanket generalization about what a bank would look for before approving something like this? Nope.

No. But I did read the thread and related links well enough to know that the issue here isn't people with long-standing commercial relationships with banks and hotel operations. People who assumed that they could finance the ridiculous deal with pie-in-the-sky room rates that never materialized. It's about people wanting a loan that can't be repaid.

quote:
“One mortgage company asked me, ‘How could I give you a mortgage on a property that is losing money every single day?” said one devastated buyer, a blue-collar worker who borrowed the $175,000 down payment from his immigrant parents and owes $750,000 at month’s end."

How indeed? Reading. Not just for squares. Most of the rooms in the hotel, are, I suspect, well-financed (or paid for outright). This topic is about the exceptions.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:16:49 EDT

anon posted :

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:07:40 EDT

Gone posted :

said by Ian:

Spiffy. Is that what we're talking about here in this thread? Nope.

said by Ian:
when the business plan for that commercial venture is "I want to buy a hotel room. I'll be paying the lending costs from the people that shell out $600 a night to stay in the room."......the banks aren't going to be lining up to do so.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 16:00:07 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Gone:

said by Ian:

Spiffy. Is that what we're talking about here in this thread? Nope.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 15:44:49 EDT

Gone posted :

said by Ian:

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Sat, 01 Dec 2012 01:27:12 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Xstar_Lumini:

So what I was told by a friend is true then? That banks won't give mortgages or lend money for commercial projects? Is this because commercial properties are too much of a risk?

Sure they will. However, when the business plan for that commercial venture is "I want to buy a hotel room. I'll be paying the lending costs from the people that shell out $600 a night to stay in the room."......the banks aren't going to be lining up to do so.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:22:03 EDT

jaberi posted : Trump was vying for presidency, does anyone think he would have turned the economy around?.....according to him US was giving everything away for free, and china was the biggest freeloader.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:50:48 EDT

Xstar_Lumini posted :

said by elwoodblues:

Greed aside, the developers were warned by the OSC not to market it as an "investment", and banks took a pass on the mortgages , seeing they were "commercial" hotel rooms , not condos .

I've been following this and there is enough greed to go around

So what I was told by a friend is true then? That banks won't give mortgages or lend money for commercial projects? Is this because commercial properties are too much of a risk?

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:23:19 EDT

anon posted : Caveat emptor.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:20:04 EDT

elwoodblues posted : Greed aside, the developers were warned by the OSC not to market it as an "investment", and banks took a pass on the mortgages , seeing they were "commercial" hotel rooms , not condos .

I've been following this and there is enough greed to go around
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:47:57 EDT

Kitlope posted : I have zero sympathy for people that get caught trying to flip/profit from property when the market sours. That's part of the risk folks and a lot of times it's simply because the greed glasses are on.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:45:33 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Linklist:

....selling his name, etc.

Which was the case here. Even a cursory, most simplistic, due diligence into these deals would have revealed that Trump was licensing his name, but not investing a dime in the property, personally or through his companies.

Even the Joe-Blow blue-collar investors here should have wondered "Why is that?". The obvious answer was "Because it's a shitty deal and not even Donald Trump is that stupid." But they were blinded by their own greed.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:38:38 EDT

Linklist posted :

said by J E F F:

Even nicer eh? Trump (the person) knows how to separate himself from everything. This is why he has so much money.

True. OPM - Other People's Money. That is how the rich get richer. They don't risk their own money in a project. They get others to risk theirs, while Trump profits from consulting contracts, marketing deals, selling his name, etc.

A lot of these investors had no business at all in investing their money in a risky project(as all Real Estate projects are). I limit my Real Estate investments to REIT mutual funds where my risk is limited strictly to the amount I want to put in to it and where liquidity and diversity of investments limits the size of potential losses. An example: »performance.morningstar.com/fund···re=en-US
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:33:52 EDT

J E F F posted : Even nicer eh? Trump (the person) knows how to separate himself from everything. This is why he has so much money.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:33:37 EDT

Ian posted :

said by J E F F:

Anyone who aligns themselves with that swindler deserve what they get. Sorry, not pity for these people.

Yeah, I'm afraid my own pity meter is running low on this one too....
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:27:50 EDT

Linklist posted :

said by J E F F:

Trump has claimed bankruptcy, how many times? Anyone who aligns themselves with that swindler deserve what they get. Sorry, not pity for these people.

Reading the only link provided in this thread, Trump(other than selling use of his name and being a minority investor himself) isn't a party to the development of this building. So he won't be party to any of the lawsuits and bankruptcy won't involve him. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Inte···ronto%29
»www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor···pid=rss1
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:22:25 EDT

Linklist posted :

said by Xstar_Lumini:

Investors were told and guaranteed that their hotel rooms would easily rent for $600 a night every night...

Guaranteed?? I doubt that. Got any links to a contract or story explaining that.
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:15:30 EDT

J E F F posted : Trump has claimed bankruptcy, how many times? Anyone who aligns themselves with that swindler deserve what they get. Sorry, not pity for these people.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:07:20 EDT

peterboro posted : This sums up these malcontent's situation.

"Most were caught up in the get-rich-quick mentality of Toronto’s booming condo market and intended to flip the units or use them to generate retirement income."

Boo fucking hoo.

»www.thestar.com/business/article···w-regret

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:40:32 EDT

urbanriot posted : Yea, this whole thing is bizarre...

More here for those interested - »www.thestar.com/business/article···w-regret

Re: LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:35:19 EDT

Xstar_Lumini posted : Now Trump Plaza is fighting back!

quote:
Developers of Toronto’s Trump International Hotel & Tower have launched lawsuits against seven investors in an effort to force them to close on deals for condo-hotel suites some claim haven’t turned out to be the Hollywood gold buyers were expecting.

The legal move by Talon International Inc. comes at the same time that a London, Ont. doctor is seeking $750,000 in damages for “misrepresentation,” unless he can get back deposits on the hotel suite he bought in the ill-fated project back in 2009.

The court wrangling is just the latest round of problems to curse the celebrity hotel and condo project at Bay and Adelaide Sts.

Dozens of purchasers of suites in the 65-storey luxury hotel are now trying to get deposits back and renege on final payments averaging over $500,000.

LOL Investors Of Trump Tower In Toronto Got Swindled!

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:28:27 EDT

Xstar_Lumini posted : Many investors are now trying to sue the developers of Trump Tower luxury highrise for "false advertisement". Many units in the highrise are hotel rooms that you could buy yourself and turn a profit if you were able to find someone that will rent the rooms for $600 a night but that's not the case, the rooms only rent for $300 a night because that's what the market is willing to bear, leaving investors in a hole.

The biggest sour grape is that now the city of Toronto has made a new assessment and now wants $30,000 in property tax a year per hotel room. Investors claim that just to pay that tax they have to rent their rooms for 100 straight days at $300 a night. Thrown into the fray is a blue-collar construction worker who took a $175,000 loan from a bank and his parents to put downpayment on a hotel room and now says he simply cannot sustain the $30,000/year property tax on his unit.

To add insult to injury the greatest benefactor is Donald Trump who made huge money out of this project without even investing a penny, he "rented" his trademark name to a russian developer who built the Trump Plaza, and will get life-long royalties on it without even paying a penny in property tax.

Investors were told and guaranteed that their hotel rooms would easily rent for $600 a night every night, making huge profits.