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AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX

AT&T Switching me to UVerse without my permission!

I just spent 3 months talking to retention to get my internet service renewed for 6 more months at $24.95:

»How do I talk to AT&T Retention?

and now they want to switch me to UVerse without my permission.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by AngryDallas:

I just spent 3 months talking to retention to get my internet service renewed for 6 more months at $24.95:

and now they want to switch me to UVerse without my permission.

Does your local retailer need your permission to replace an aging, manual POS device with the latest, state-of-the-art device? Does your local OTA TV station need your permission to replace aging, analog transmitters with the latest, state-of-the-art digital transmitters?

AT&T wants to replace aging ADSL equipment, which is getting harder to support because manufactures are producing fewer replacement parts; driving up the cost of maintenance. They are upgrading to newer ADSL2+/VDSL equipment. The decision is not customer based.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
said by NormanS:

AT&T wants to replace aging ADSL equipment, which is getting harder to support because manufactures are producing fewer replacement parts; driving up the cost of maintenance. They are upgrading to newer ADSL2+/VDSL equipment. The decision is not customer based.

New dslams are multimode, and can easily operate in adsl mode.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by public:

New dslams are multimode, and can easily operate in adsl mode.

It seems that they also want to move people away from ATM and PPPoE.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
When I called them, the lady kept telling me it's fiber optics. it's fiber optics.

That's a croak of BS!

It MAY BE fiber optics but from the box on the side of my building to my modem is still a regular crappy copper phone line.

(she said no one needs to come inside my house to do anything)

If it's really fiber optics, they should replace the line from their box to the wall jack with fiber optics and also give me a fiber optics cord to connect from the wall jack to the modem.

public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

said by public:

New dslams are multimode, and can easily operate in adsl mode.

It seems that they also want to move people away from ATM and PPPoE.

Not really. IPDSLAM only replaces ATM with IP between the DSLAM and the upstream. Users still see ATM.

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
ATM? DSLAM? PPOE? IPDSLAM?

Someone explain it to me please?

Thanks!


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
Asynchronous Transfer Mode. Digital Subscriber Line Access Multiplexer. Point-to-Point Protocol over Ethernet (3xP, lower case 'o'). Internet Protocol Digital Subscriber Line Multiplexer.

ATM is a kind of circuit switching. Many DSL providers use it on the DSLAM to aggregation router circuit; where the aggregation router is the first IP hop (the first hop past your CPE with an IP address).

The DSLAM is similar to the DSL modem. Individual copper pairs from each premises are connected to one of several "ports". A DSLAM can be located in COs (Central Offices), or RTs (Remote Terminals). The IPDSLAM brings the IP circuit closer to the customer. Instead of the ATM circuit between the DSLAM and aggregation router, an IP circuit is used.

For AT&T U-verse TV packages, VRADs (Video Ready Access Devices) are specialized RTs housing the equipment for VDSL (Video Digital Subscriber Line) access modules.

PPPoE is a method of authentication. It is commonly used by DSL providers, but not necessary for DSL.

Why the lady kept saying, "It's fiber". In the early, "Dark Ages" of DSL, DSLAMS were often fed by T1 (copper) circuits to the carrier's network. Put too many customers on copper fed DSLAMS, and reliable delivery of the promised speeds will suffer. As SBC, the company upgraded much of its plant to bring fiber to the DSLAMs. While this did bring fiber closer to the customer, and went a long way to mitigate bandwidth exhaustion issues, it is not FTTH.

AT&T U-verse HSI is made available to customers too far from DSLAMs for IPTV (Internet Protocol Television). It can utilize either VDSL, or ADSL2+. Where AT&T used ATM back to the network for ADSL, they are replacing the older ATM circuits with newer all IP circuits called, "PTM"; I think it refers to, "Packet Transfer Mode". They are also replacing PPPoE authentication with 802.1x. This pretty much means the customer cannot connect with generic ADSL2+, or VDSL modems.

I believe they are doing this in an effort to squeeze out the CLECs, because there is no regulatory requirement on AT&T to provide wholesale access to their IPDSLAM network. IOW, it is an anti-competitive measure.

There are some, rare cases where customers have been put back on ADSL when AT&T couldn't get the IPDSLAM connection working reliably. But if the IPDSLAM connection is solid, ADSL is generally not an option for the AT&T customer.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to AngryDallas
said by AngryDallas:

If it's really fiber optics, they should replace the line from their box to the wall jack with fiber optics and also give me a fiber optics cord to connect from the wall jack to the modem.

Not even Verizon (FiOS) and Google are doing this. "FTTH" is fiber to a box on the outside wall of the premises, and Ethernet into the premises. The box, properly called an "Optical Network Terminal" (acronym: ONT), is the modem. The premises is wired with Ethernet (CAT 5e, or CAT 6) to the ONT, and the customer just plugs in a router (but I don't know if it is generic, or proprietary).

In any case, most U-verse is FTTN, with copper to the premises; despite what the AT&T Marketoons believe/say.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
Thank you NormanS.

They said if I switch, they will waive the activation fee and send me a new modem, free of charge, with no monthly modem rental fee and the modem is for me to keep.

Still, after what I went through for 3 months to get my DSL for another 6 months at the discount price, I am afraid to switch.

I fear they are going to double bill me again and then I will have to do the same song and dance over and,

I am also afraid there will be an interruption of service although the lady said there won't be any:

She claims the switch will be painless.


r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·row44

1 edit
I was forced to get uverse.
I had no internet for 3 weeks.
The uverse modems have nothing but problems and connectivity issues.
adsl was rock solid

Unless you need extra speed or tv, just avoid uverse.
Also since switching to uverse youtube has been very slow and buffing slow even though I have twice the speed. Never had a problem on adsl.
There is some kind of packet shaping, qos, or bad routing on uverse that was not on adsl users.

You will get double billed. They use two different call centers/billing systems from uverse and adsl and neither talk to each other which means after they sign up for uverse you have to call another number to cancel the adsl.
Then you will have a uverse and adsl bill for the month.
--
...brought to you by Carl's Jr.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to AngryDallas
Do you know if yours is a CO connection? A changeover within the CO should have minimum downtime. It shouldn't take over 15 minutes to disconnect from the ADSL equipment, and connect to the IPDSLAM equipment. I did not go from ADSL to IPDSLAM, but I did go from AT&T ADSL to Sonic.net, LLC ADSL2+. The change took place within the CO, and I did not even notice much. My modem DSL light went red, so I rebooted the modem. The DSL light started flashing green, then went solid when it locked sync. One moment I was on ADSL, the next on ADSL2+. I did have to change my router; AT&T ADSL uses PPPoE, Sonic.net ADSL2+ uses DHCP. I could use the same modem (in fact, I set up the Sonic.net ADSL2+ modem before the change; it was able to sync to ADSL).

For a U-verse change, I expect you will have to change the modem; but if the transition is as smooth as mine, when the ADSL modem loses sync, pull it out and put in the IPDSLAM modem.

Alas, the IPDSLAM modem is not a pure modem, but a "Residential Gateway". I don't know how to configure it to work with a router; but there are threads in the forum on that subject.

I can't be upbeat about the billing; remember, SBC bought AT&T. So SBC management philosophy permeates the corporation. Billing has always been a sore point for SBC; expect trouble.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
I don't know what a CO connection is.

I was told by that lady that there will be no downtime but knowing AT&T track history on Uverse, from what I read in the Uverse forum of this website, I hope I won't be unlucky like many others.

I am also worried now, again from reading the other people's posts in the Uverse forum, that I will get double billed and then I have to do the same 3 months long song and verse of multiple telephone calls to get it adjusted.

I wonder if I can still call them back and cancel the order but then, they may want to charge me a termination fee and still send me a bill for Uverse.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
CO is Central Office; basically a facility which houses switching equipment, among other stuff. My change was made on CO gear, so I just wanted it out there that my experience did not extend to remote terminals (might, but I don't have that experience).

Unless there is a problem in the plant, the change shouldn't be troublesome.

Billing will be the big headache. SBC could never seem to get it right if the customer added, or deleted services. I felt fairly lucky when the DSL speed upgrade went through without a billing hitch.

If the order has been placed, canceling will not guaranty a billing problem escape. If anything, you will get double billed, cancel or not.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
I called to cancel but they (Migration) are telling me DSL in my area is going away after January.

If I don't get UVerse now, when DSL goes away and I decide to get it, I will have to pay the activation fee, installation fee and the price of the modem.

Right now they are waiving all those fees.

Of course knowing my past experience with AT&T, they maybe just saying that to get me to stay with UVerse.

So I guess I am stuck with UVerse.

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath
What version of U-Verse are they trying to move you to? AT&T has 2 version, IPDSL and U-Verse with TV.

Also in some areas, yes it is Fiber Optic, direct to the home, but its limited areas.

If you don't want to take the U-Verse route and upgrade and are happy with the slower speeds, I would suggest you sign up with a reseller/wholesaller and convert over to them. By doing so, AT&T still has to provide you with the DSL until they can remove that reseller from the network.

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
I am just going from DSL with no home phone service, the Elite 6MB to UVerse Internet only, same 6MB download speed and the upload speed will increase to 1MB from 768kb/sec

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath
Sounds like you're on IPDSL then. And if you don't want to switch then you need to order a phone line from AT&T- a basic metered line would do it and call a reseller/local ISP to do business with and get your 6meg without switching. But you will be required to do a share-line account since ISPs are not allowed to sell dry line DSL any longer.

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX

1 edit
The modem arrived today.

It's a 3600HGV and it's almost as high as my PC tower.

Are you sure this is the right thing?

Shouldn't (with the advances in new technologies) it be getting smaller instead of getting bigger?

naelme

join:2012-12-06
Baton Rouge, LA
reply to AngryDallas
the biggest issue i've seen affecting members is being converted to dslams at ranges beyond dslam max range. or below max attainable bit rates than previous adsl. lines that worked well with dsl not being sufficient for the much more sensitive dslam signal. it can be confusing because ipdslams are infact adsl signal that runs to fiber in the co usualy.

AngryDallas

join:2010-12-06
Dallas, TX
My download and upload speed test is higher than what I signed up for.

Should I tell them?

I don't want them to charge me extra than what I signed up for because my speed is faster BUT at the same time, I'm afraid (knowing AT&T incompetence) if I tell them, they may screw something up and I will end up with less speed than what I signed up for.

CmmTch

join:2002-08-10
High Ridge, MO
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to AngryDallas
I would keep that to myself if I were you, no need to notify anybody you're getting "very good" speeds.

I'm on Uverse HSI (internet only, phone is copper from CO, TV is Direct) and it's great, I was on CO based older DSL and was starting to lose sync every once in a while. The phone still worked fine, so I suspect it was something in the copper from the CO that was causing periodic sync losses. Getting my DSL from the VRAD is much more reliable than it was, faster too, 3M down, 1M up. My RG is the 3600HGV, and with the wireless function on it I didn't have to run lan cable to my wife's office upstairs, her laptop runs great on the wireless from the RG.

All things considered I'm happy I chose to move to Uverse HSI, good luck with yours


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by CmmTch:

I'm on Uverse HSI (internet only, phone is copper from CO, TV is Direct) and it's great, I was on CO based older DSL and was starting to lose sync every once in a while. The phone still worked fine, so I suspect it was something in the copper from the CO that was causing periodic sync losses. Getting my DSL from the VRAD ...

So, you have two pair? Phone to the CO on one pair, and DSL to the VRAD on another pair?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

CmmTch

join:2002-08-10
High Ridge, MO
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
No, I have one pair to my house. The telephone ckt goes CO to SLC5 PG at the R/T, then jumper from the PG to "in" side of card in VRAD, then cable pair to my house connected to "out" side. This uses the same cable pair from the VRAD to my house for both phone and internet. Very similar to how it's wired in the CO for lineshare service, D/T is wired to OE side of the IPDSLAM on the frame, then it's wired from cable pair side of the IPDSLAM to the cable pair leaving the CO.

The VRAD cabinet was put in at the same location where the PG R/T is. It's almost a lineshare ckt except the internet is on fiber from the CO to the VRAD and I believe the PG is fed by copper T1's.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

1 edit
Okay; so VRAD/RT connection. I am just trying to relate that to what I have seen directly. I think my ISP would call your premises RT connected; they offer ADSL2+ service to CO connections, but not to RT connections. They are a CLEC servicing premises in AT&T's California.

My old neighborhood is not served by a traditional RT, just a VRAD. My former premises is a direct connection from the adjacent SAI to the CO.

BTW, I was told in another thread, which now I must hunt down to ensure I even read it right, that VRAD boxes can house ADSL2+ equipment. Can you comment? I ask because I am being challenged on an assertion I made based on what may be faulty recollection on my part.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

CmmTch

join:2002-08-10
High Ridge, MO
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
There was a time when there was only an SAI at that spot, then the PG was installed probably 13 years ago as the area began growing. Then the VRAD installed a couple years ago for Uverse.

Just the name "VRAD" indicates it can provide VDSL, I'm not an outside tech but I would think an IPDSLAM could be installed in that cabinet to provide ADSL2+. I don't know if any actually are though. If Uverse TV is available to a customer then their internet will probably be VDSL.

I'm always leery of saying anything definitive because there will be somebody in a different area that will have what I said they couldn't have


ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
said by CmmTch:

I would think an IPDSLAM could be installed in that cabinet to provide ADSL2+. I don't know if any actually are though.

There most certainly are IPDSLAMs installed in cabinets in the field, some in existing RTs/CEVs, and some in new cabinets, the same cabinets that the VDSL2 VRADs use.

The term "VRAD" usually means either VDSL(2) Ready Access Device or Video Ready Access Device. Video could, in theory, be provided over IPDSLAM (two bonded 18 Mbps circuits would be enough bandwidth for the 32 Mbps profile; two bonded 12 Mbps circuits would almost be enough for the 25 Mbps profile) -- but AFAIK only rumors of rumors of trials ever existed, and no idea if any plans exist to utilize IPDSLAM for Video

CmmTch

join:2002-08-10
High Ridge, MO
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
Said by CmmTch See Profile I'm always leery of saying anything definitive because there will be somebody in a different area that will have what I said they couldn't have

That's exactly what I was talking about, I do know the newer IPDSLAMS are designed to be installed inside or out, but since I don't work outside I don't know if any were installed outside in my area.


ILpt4U
Premium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:9
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
said by CmmTch:

Said by CmmTch See Profile I'm always leery of saying anything definitive because there will be somebody in a different area that will have what I said they couldn't have

That's exactly what I was talking about, I do know the newer IPDSLAMS are designed to be installed inside or out, but since I don't work outside I don't know if any were installed outside in my area.

It is a big company - all sorts of things everywhere... I know exactly the feeling