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AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
reply to d4m1r

Re: Blog: Recent Developments in Canadian Copyright Law

said by d4m1r:

1) Props to TSI for sending out an email to everyone, and one in plain english so everyone understands TSI's position and knows their rights.

2) Another props to TSI for taking the stance they have (privacy over corporate interests) and yet again reminding me of why I recommend TSI over Rogers/Bell/etc every time

3) Everyone please keep in mind bittorrent is merely a neutral technology, and a perfectly legal and useful one at that. It saves distribution and bandwidth costs and can even be used to legally download "backup" copies of media you already own. +1 for BT!

I hope TSI's stance doesn't change in the future and while the big 3 might not value my privacy, I certainly do and I'm glad TSI does as well.

+1!
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Nemo888

join:2005-12-25
Canada
reply to TSI Marc

It really didn't say much of anything.

3 Web Corp., Access Communications Co-Operative Ltd., ACN Inc., and Distributel Communications Ltd have been targeted by a US copyright trolling company. November 19 they got a Canadian federal court judge to force the ISP's to reveal the users. About 50 people will be harassed in the trial round.

The fines start at 100$ and 5000$ is the max for all infringing combined. Plaintiff must prove damages so expect them to try to keep it out of court. If a sympathetic judge gives a 100$ judgement they are screwed. Copyright lawyers who can litigate cost over 500$ an hour.

So where is the Teksavvy VPN service?

Expand your moderator at work

Curmudgeon

join:2012-04-09

1 edit
reply to Ott_Cable

infusionsoft.com third party mailer

said by Ott_Cable :

Please note that passing your clients' info to a 3rd party mailer: infusionsoft.com is a violation to privacy.

I agree. I complained about this a few months back concerning a different e-mail. At first they denied using a third party mailer, and when I replied showing them the message headers, I was ignored.

I used the "unsubscribe" link to remove my address from the list. If that doesn't work, I'll just block all mail from infusionsoft.


MJB

join:2012-01-29
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Blog: Recent Developments in Canadian Copyright Law

well u could crack the program yourself (game) and pass it around on a jumpstick.. meaning the game will have to be bought first from a store.



bobby

@teksavvy.com

well, i have a vpn service that changes my ip address to a US one. Would that be a way to get around this BS copy right law?


jubjub107

join:2010-11-28
reply to TSI Marc

Would a seedbox be another option? I haven't been keeping up with the copyright laws in other countries so I'm not sure if it would be.


OHSrob

join:2011-06-08

2 edits
reply to TSI Marc

It's too bad everyone was so quick to have konrad von frankenstein (The previous chairman of the CRTC) kicked out.

Well he might not have understood technical things further then the scope bell wanted him to understand. He did fight for people to have some rights after seeing how much the American Music Industry just exploited Americans.

We could probably all complain about this if he was still there and prevent these copyright lawyers from exploiting our customers over stupid thing's like downloading the latest episode of house. The new guy might be able to help as well.

Konrad Von Frankenstein the reason the music industry can't fine you for $250,000 for downloading the latest Brittany Spears song.

I am having a really hard time understanding why I would have to give out any of my subscriber's information without a subpoena and how anyone in the government could possibly think it is a good idea for any isp to just give subscriber info out to anyone who claims they are an anti-piracy agency.

Does anyone have a link with some more information regarding this law ?

edit: I would seriously hope that I only have to comply with canadian company's for canadian content. If tell me I have to co-operate with foreign nations anti-piracy agency's this is going to be a big sticky mess.
--
www.ontariohighspeed.ca



eh wut

@videotron.ca
reply to d4m1r

said by d4m1r:

2) Another props to TSI for taking the stance they have (privacy over corporate interests) and yet again reminding me of why I recommend TSI over Rogers/Bell/etc every time

What hat did you pull that out of?
No where do they state they will go to court and fight anyone to protect your privacy before handing off your info on court order.

Care to paste it? I must have missed it.


cant wait

@videotron.ca
reply to jubjub107

said by jubjub107:

Would a seedbox be another option? I haven't been keeping up with the copyright laws in other countries so I'm not sure if it would be.

and

said by bobby :

well, i have a vpn service that changes my ip address to a US one. Would that be a way to get around this BS copy right law?

I wouldn't worry about it. The perception is this:

said by d4m1r:

2) Another props to TSI for taking the stance they have (privacy over corporate interests) and yet again reminding me of why I recommend TSI over Rogers/Bell/etc every time

Seems the perception is that TSI will protect you and not give your info out.

I think some people are in for a wake-up call.


El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to OHSrob

said by OHSrob:

I am having a really hard time understanding why I would have to give out any of my subscriber's information without a subpoena and how anyone in the government could possibly think it is a good idea for any isp to just give subscriber info out to anyone who claims they are an anti-piracy agency.

Teksavvy did state in the email that they wouldn't do so without a court order, you could do the same.

If you wanted to dispute the court order, or not comply with it, you might be looking at a more challenging situation.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08

said by El Quintron:

said by OHSrob:

I am having a really hard time understanding why I would have to give out any of my subscriber's information without a subpoena and how anyone in the government could possibly think it is a good idea for any isp to just give subscriber info out to anyone who claims they are an anti-piracy agency.

Teksavvy did state in the email that they wouldn't do so without a court order, you could do the same.

If you wanted to dispute the court order, or not comply with it, you might be looking at a more challenging situation.

Ok wicked I don't mind if there is due process.

I was just worried from what I was reading on the blog that anyone could just email me with an ip ask who it is and expect me to tell them.


etc etc

@videotron.ca

said by OHSrob:

said by El Quintron:

said by OHSrob:

I am having a really hard time understanding why I would have to give out any of my subscriber's information without a subpoena and how anyone in the government could possibly think it is a good idea for any isp to just give subscriber info out to anyone who claims they are an anti-piracy agency.

Teksavvy did state in the email that they wouldn't do so without a court order, you could do the same.

If you wanted to dispute the court order, or not comply with it, you might be looking at a more challenging situation.

Ok wicked I don't mind if there is due process.

I was just worried from what I was reading on the blog that anyone could just email me with an ip ask who it is and expect me to tell them.

-It will go to court.
-You will have the option of fighting for your customers privacy.
-You "should" inform your customers if a request for their info is made before a court order is handed down so they can fight it (fight the release of their info to this 3rd party) to protect themselves if they so wish (which is what Teksavvy says they will do, instead of protecting peoples privacy like some people above think they will do).
-You should have a policy in place that if a court orders disclosure you charge as a minimum X$ to process the request (takes man-hours and resources). Bell et al charge from 200 to 300+ per request (that is, per IP).
-Likely more you can/should do, but that's up to you to figure out and comply with Canadian laws, privacy etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some people actually drag you to court or to privcom if you don't cover the basics...

TSI is doing the bare minimum basics, per their blog, to cover themselves. If you copy them you should be good.

From what I understand, people on a wisp (ie like Gorilla George) will have to ID which person out of the 50 or so sharing the same IP they are exactly to comply not only with this, but some new "security" legislation.

How this would apply to a reseller of someone like TSI, I'm not sure. But don't be surprises to get a $200-300 Bill if you are a reseller and have to involved them. Man-power isn't free. And you shouldn't be giving peoples info out for free. At least make the extortionist pay to make them think twice and to make them realize their fishing expeditions will have a cost to them.

So resellers should be working this out with TSI. 200-300$ to TSI (or whatever their minimum is + your time as the reseller if you are involved). I would like to think that you at least stick it to them money wise before they run off with your customers info.


El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL

said by etc etc :

-You will have the option of fighting for your customers privacy.

I'm certainly not a lawyer by any stretch, but, once you're at the court order stage there isn't a whole lot you can do reaslistically except for confirm the order is valid, if you chose not to comply, you're looking at a court battle.

If one court battle meant you could disregards all subsequent court orders, then there's a remote chance it might be worth it, but more likely you'd have to have a protracted for each and every court order issued.

Not a scenario any business could afford, realistically.

I'm going to put the question to someone who can provide me with credible legal counsel, and with their permission I'll post it back here.

Circumstances permitting of course.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


yeah

@videotron.ca

said by El Quintron:

once you're at the court order stage there isn't a whole lot you can do reaslistically except for confirm the order is valid, if you chose not to comply, you're looking at a court battle.

Yeah, before the court orders it, obviously, the ISP could send legal representation to fight it, at their cost. Which isn't what's going to happen. As you stated, costs are up there. Plus it doesn't make any sense.

Some people in this topic are under the very strange impression, as seen, that TSI is going to protect their privacy ("privacy over corporate interests" or whatever rhetoric they stated).

callous10

join:2005-09-12
toron
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

Teksavvy, please confirm that Teksavvy will be keeping AT MOST 6 months worth of logs but no more than 6 months to comply with the law.

It wouldnt make sense to the teksavvy clients if teksavvy kept logs for 9 months when the law says 6 months


Jinzo

join:2011-06-14
Burlington, ON

Hopefully you get an answer, but I doubt any will be forth coming. Once Mark made the original post they seem to have gone silent on various other policies.

Personally I would like the following answered:
- How long they retain Logs
- How they used to handle copyright infrigement notices
- How they will handle court order notifications for the account holder.

I am guessing it will be ignored, but hey Christmas is right around the corner maybe we will be surprised.


mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 edit
reply to callous10

said by callous10:

Teksavvy, please confirm that Teksavvy will be keeping AT MOST 6 months worth of logs but no more than 6 months to comply with the law.

Why so long?
I don't know of any law requiring that TSI keep any logs until after a specific investigation of a specific individual case is launched.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to MJB

said by MJB:

well u could crack the program yourself (game) and pass it around on a jumpstick.. meaning the game will have to be bought first from a store.

Please stop making me laugh with your foolish posts.


BooMer_Ca

@teksavvy.com
reply to Jinzo

said by Jinzo:

Hopefully you get an answer, but I doubt any will be forth coming. Once Mark made the original post they seem to have gone silent on various other policies.

Personally I would like the following answered:
- How long they retain Logs
- How they used to handle copyright infrigement notices
- How they will handle court order notifications for the account holder.

I am guessing it will be ignored, but hey Christmas is right around the corner maybe we will be surprised.

I agree. I would like answers to these questions aswell

callous10

join:2005-09-12
toron
reply to TSI Marc

is teksavvy going to answer, or has the 'fix' already been decided?



TSI Gabe
Router of Packets
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Gatineau, QC
kudos:7

We currently keep logs for 90 days.

As far as the other questions, I'd rather let Marc answer.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/why-teksavvy···n-canada
--
TSI Gabe - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )


vientito1

join:2009-01-09

How much money will the accuser have to spend before they could stick the bill to us? That's the whole key in the equation.


oink

join:2012-01-21
Montreal, QC

said by vientito1:

How much money will the accuser have to spend before they could stick the bill to us? That's the whole key in the equation.

Not sure about the RoC, but civil courts are already overloaded in QC, they won't be allowed to prosecute, plain and simple. And there's no way any significant part of the budget will be allocated to implement this sort of corporate policing, it would be electoral suicide.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to mlord

said by mlord:

said by callous10:

Teksavvy, please confirm that Teksavvy will be keeping AT MOST 6 months worth of logs but no more than 6 months to comply with the law.

Why so long?
I don't know of any law requiring that TSI keep any logs until after a specific investigation of a specific individual case is launched.

True enough... The new law says they have to keep logs on the offending IP for 6 months after a notice is sent, or for a full year if prosecuting.

quote:

(b) retain records that will allow the identity of the person to whom the electronic location belongs to be determined, and do so for six months beginning on the day on which the notice of claimed infringement is received or, if the claimant commences proceedings relating to the claimed infringement and so notifies the person before the end of those six months, for one year after the day on which the person receives the notice of claimed infringement.
»parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Pub···ile=78#3
41.26.(1)b
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


hm

@videotron.ca

said by resa1983:

True enough... The new law says they have to keep logs on the offending IP for 6 months after a notice is sent, or for a full year if prosecuting.

quote:

(b) retain records that will allow the identity of the person to whom the electronic location belongs to be determined, and do so for six months beginning on the day on which the notice of claimed infringement is received or, if the claimant commences proceedings relating to the claimed infringement and so notifies the person before the end of those six months, for one year after the day on which the person receives the notice of claimed infringement.
»parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Pub···ile=78#3
41.26.(1)b

Yup.
Which is why TSI will be charging. Or should be.
Record retentions & special record retentions with copyright claims will have a dollar value attached to that.

Again, let us use Bell and Rogers as an example here:
Bell and rogers charges 200-300$ respectfully to ID a person based on IP. I didn't see these costs include special record retentions. So there will be a new costs.

Now add the costs of new record retentions for someone who got a copyright claim.

Now add the costs of disposal of said retained records after 6 months or a year.

When Bell, videotron and Rogers went to court it wasn't to protect their customers, it was to ensure the courts new there were costs associated. Thus the hurt locker people had to pay them to get the info, which the court agreed with.

So let's say TSI charges 200$ (100$ less than Rogers) per IP to ID someone. They should also have a cost for these special retention files as well:
1. The court order detailing the IP's
2. A list of the people these IP's belong to
3. Destroy by date

What's the cost of that? Another 100 - 200$ per court file? (depending on how they file and retain this)

And if these copyright cases will be coming in the thousands like what was stated in the media, they are going to have man-hours involved.

Who covers these costs? Will have to be the one demanding the names behind the IP's.

I'd like to hear from Marc or someone else running an ISP if they plan on charging like Bell and Rogers. Makes me wonder if they will show up in court on the first claim they get to make sure the courts know there are costs associated that the copyright troll will have to pay.

So if the copyright trolls have to pay a lump sum of a few hundred per IP, and maybe only win a hundred dollars per IP maybe they will think twice.

Yup pretty interested in how teksavvy or others will be doing this, or covering costs.

The only cost I know of is Bell's et al. And that doesn't include retentions and retention destruction.


hm

@videotron.ca

Just to add in case some people don't believe ISP's have expenses that must be covered by the extortionist copyright troll, in the hurt locker case the court decision when granting the court order stated:
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5999/125/
Late last month the court ordered the three ISPs to disclose the names and addresses of subscribers linked to IP addresses alleged to have copied the movie. The ISPs were given two weeks to respond and are entitled to be reimbursed for their expenses.

We later found out the costs (which I detailed up above for Rogers and Bell). But Record retentions and destruction is now a new cost that the ISP's have to cover.

So once again, I hope TSI sticks it to them money wise before giving peoples info away.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 edit
reply to resa1983

Let's parse that a bit more precisely........

They don't have to keep ALL the logs for that whole period of time.... just the data pertaining to a specific instance of alleged infringement.

TSI should purge the records of every other customer on a rolling 6 month basis every day. Logs should be backed up separately from all other TSI data, so that they can be easily deleted without affecting other aspects of TSI's business when they are purged.

In other words, to make it simple,
1) stuff the log data in a SQL database,
2) delete all records on an ex-post basis 6months+1 day later, >183 days old
3) select only those records required to be retained by court order and write them into a separate db (eg "RETAINED"
4) on 1 year +1 day delete data from RETAINED which is >365 days old
5) daily backup both the 6 month + 1 year db's separately
6) get rid of each of the online 6 month + 1 year db backup copies at 183 days +1 and 365 days +1 on a daily basis
7) any tape backups of the log info are similarly overwritten or shredded.
8) Consider writing the backup tapes to bad media
9) write the on-line db's to single disks (nothing in the law says it has to be RAIDed)



hm

@videotron.ca

said by MaynardKrebs:

TSI should purge the records of every other customer on a rolling 6 month basis 3 month basis every day.

2) delete all records on an ex-post basis 6months+1 day later, >183 days old 3 month basis
4) on 1 year +1 day delete data from RETAINED which is >365 days old On a one year or 6 month basis (depending if the IP/person is being prosecuted).

Made some some corrections for you.

Industry standard is 3 months retention.
6 months if they received a court order.
1 year if the person is indeed prosecuted.

Now in addition to this, and if these come en-masse in the thousands (as was stated in the media). They are going to have to deal with people who have to call in and demand record destruction, which is peoples right. Or they will be dragged to privcom or court.

So this creates a burden on TSI's mandatory to have "privacy officer", which I believe is Marc (who is wearing two hats).

I hope they cost this one right.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Thanks for touching up the dates....I was just bashing at the keyboard and didn't think the date stuff through clearly enough.

An ISP doesn't really need to hang onto the IP address very long, if at all, anyway.