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callous10

join:2005-09-12
toron
reply to TSI Marc

Re: Blog: Recent Developments in Canadian Copyright Law

is teksavvy going to answer, or has the 'fix' already been decided?



TSI Gabe
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Chatham, ON
kudos:7

We currently keep logs for 90 days.

As far as the other questions, I'd rather let Marc answer.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/why-teksavvy···n-canada
--
TSI Gabe - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )


vientito1

join:2009-01-09

How much money will the accuser have to spend before they could stick the bill to us? That's the whole key in the equation.


oink

join:2012-01-21
Montreal, QC

said by vientito1:

How much money will the accuser have to spend before they could stick the bill to us? That's the whole key in the equation.

Not sure about the RoC, but civil courts are already overloaded in QC, they won't be allowed to prosecute, plain and simple. And there's no way any significant part of the budget will be allocated to implement this sort of corporate policing, it would be electoral suicide.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to mlord

said by mlord:

said by callous10:

Teksavvy, please confirm that Teksavvy will be keeping AT MOST 6 months worth of logs but no more than 6 months to comply with the law.

Why so long?
I don't know of any law requiring that TSI keep any logs until after a specific investigation of a specific individual case is launched.

True enough... The new law says they have to keep logs on the offending IP for 6 months after a notice is sent, or for a full year if prosecuting.

quote:

(b) retain records that will allow the identity of the person to whom the electronic location belongs to be determined, and do so for six months beginning on the day on which the notice of claimed infringement is received or, if the claimant commences proceedings relating to the claimed infringement and so notifies the person before the end of those six months, for one year after the day on which the person receives the notice of claimed infringement.
»parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Pub···ile=78#3
41.26.(1)b
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


hm

@videotron.ca

said by resa1983:

True enough... The new law says they have to keep logs on the offending IP for 6 months after a notice is sent, or for a full year if prosecuting.

quote:

(b) retain records that will allow the identity of the person to whom the electronic location belongs to be determined, and do so for six months beginning on the day on which the notice of claimed infringement is received or, if the claimant commences proceedings relating to the claimed infringement and so notifies the person before the end of those six months, for one year after the day on which the person receives the notice of claimed infringement.
»parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Pub···ile=78#3
41.26.(1)b

Yup.
Which is why TSI will be charging. Or should be.
Record retentions & special record retentions with copyright claims will have a dollar value attached to that.

Again, let us use Bell and Rogers as an example here:
Bell and rogers charges 200-300$ respectfully to ID a person based on IP. I didn't see these costs include special record retentions. So there will be a new costs.

Now add the costs of new record retentions for someone who got a copyright claim.

Now add the costs of disposal of said retained records after 6 months or a year.

When Bell, videotron and Rogers went to court it wasn't to protect their customers, it was to ensure the courts new there were costs associated. Thus the hurt locker people had to pay them to get the info, which the court agreed with.

So let's say TSI charges 200$ (100$ less than Rogers) per IP to ID someone. They should also have a cost for these special retention files as well:
1. The court order detailing the IP's
2. A list of the people these IP's belong to
3. Destroy by date

What's the cost of that? Another 100 - 200$ per court file? (depending on how they file and retain this)

And if these copyright cases will be coming in the thousands like what was stated in the media, they are going to have man-hours involved.

Who covers these costs? Will have to be the one demanding the names behind the IP's.

I'd like to hear from Marc or someone else running an ISP if they plan on charging like Bell and Rogers. Makes me wonder if they will show up in court on the first claim they get to make sure the courts know there are costs associated that the copyright troll will have to pay.

So if the copyright trolls have to pay a lump sum of a few hundred per IP, and maybe only win a hundred dollars per IP maybe they will think twice.

Yup pretty interested in how teksavvy or others will be doing this, or covering costs.

The only cost I know of is Bell's et al. And that doesn't include retentions and retention destruction.


hm

@videotron.ca

Just to add in case some people don't believe ISP's have expenses that must be covered by the extortionist copyright troll, in the hurt locker case the court decision when granting the court order stated:
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5999/125/
Late last month the court ordered the three ISPs to disclose the names and addresses of subscribers linked to IP addresses alleged to have copied the movie. The ISPs were given two weeks to respond and are entitled to be reimbursed for their expenses.

We later found out the costs (which I detailed up above for Rogers and Bell). But Record retentions and destruction is now a new cost that the ISP's have to cover.

So once again, I hope TSI sticks it to them money wise before giving peoples info away.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

1 edit
reply to resa1983

Let's parse that a bit more precisely........

They don't have to keep ALL the logs for that whole period of time.... just the data pertaining to a specific instance of alleged infringement.

TSI should purge the records of every other customer on a rolling 6 month basis every day. Logs should be backed up separately from all other TSI data, so that they can be easily deleted without affecting other aspects of TSI's business when they are purged.

In other words, to make it simple,
1) stuff the log data in a SQL database,
2) delete all records on an ex-post basis 6months+1 day later, >183 days old
3) select only those records required to be retained by court order and write them into a separate db (eg "RETAINED"
4) on 1 year +1 day delete data from RETAINED which is >365 days old
5) daily backup both the 6 month + 1 year db's separately
6) get rid of each of the online 6 month + 1 year db backup copies at 183 days +1 and 365 days +1 on a daily basis
7) any tape backups of the log info are similarly overwritten or shredded.
8) Consider writing the backup tapes to bad media
9) write the on-line db's to single disks (nothing in the law says it has to be RAIDed)



hm

@videotron.ca

said by MaynardKrebs:

TSI should purge the records of every other customer on a rolling 6 month basis 3 month basis every day.

2) delete all records on an ex-post basis 6months+1 day later, >183 days old 3 month basis
4) on 1 year +1 day delete data from RETAINED which is >365 days old On a one year or 6 month basis (depending if the IP/person is being prosecuted).

Made some some corrections for you.

Industry standard is 3 months retention.
6 months if they received a court order.
1 year if the person is indeed prosecuted.

Now in addition to this, and if these come en-masse in the thousands (as was stated in the media). They are going to have to deal with people who have to call in and demand record destruction, which is peoples right. Or they will be dragged to privcom or court.

So this creates a burden on TSI's mandatory to have "privacy officer", which I believe is Marc (who is wearing two hats).

I hope they cost this one right.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Thanks for touching up the dates....I was just bashing at the keyboard and didn't think the date stuff through clearly enough.

An ISP doesn't really need to hang onto the IP address very long, if at all, anyway.



hm

@videotron.ca

One of the key points this extortion company stated was that they have collected info on Canadians for over 5 months.

Thing is, they shouldn't be able to get info on anyone via IP data older than 3-months.

So if the guys tells TSI gimme this persons info from 4 months go, or if the court orders TSI to give the info and the info is older than 3 months, TSI shouldn't have anything to give. If they do then I foresee a stink. And a big stink at that.

Only one exception to this would be the people who have static IP's. And from what I recall from a previous post over this past year there seems to be an issue with someone requesting a new static IP. I forget what it is but that topic (or it might have been a review) is in this forum that detailed this.



hm

@videotron.ca

said by hm :

Only one exception to this would be the people who have static IP's. And from what I recall from a previous post over this past year there seems to be an issue with someone requesting a new static IP. I forget what it is but that topic (or it might have been a review) is in this forum that detailed this.

hm I now recall why they didn't want to change static IP's for a person. I believe the person had voip with them and TSI cited it was a "security issue" changing IP's. This, i believe, was due to 911 services (name, address etc) being tied to that IP in case of emergency. Changing it seems to have been an issue.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

Something that bothers me terribly about all of this...

This is the one "Sore spot" I've noticed when talking to TSI both publicly and privately.

TSI is open with just about every single part of their operations, but the second the topic if IP addresses and data/log retention is brought up, the line goes dead. One liner replies are given without any real meat. Yes Gabe's reply was point blank and yes it did semi-answer the question, but it begs me and others to ask "Is that ALL we should know about the subject?"

So you keep logs for 90 days, is that it? What happens after? Are they destroyed completely, or "Archived". Are there exceptions to this rule? (Certain clients causing trouble being watched?) What do these logs contain? Just a date and IP and that's it?

I'm sorry to point the finger back and to sound so demanding or paranoid, but it's just very odd that this is the one subject that you guys shut right up about. Which isn't your style. Not to throw salt on a wound either, but as a reseller, I've had to deal directly with TSI on an "incident" relating to log retention of one of my clients... And to be honest, the process was not pleasant, nor smooth, nor was communications "acceptable" in my mind. (This was a few years ago so things are different now). But the same dead-silent attitude was there.



hm

@videotron.ca

said by voxframe:

What do these logs contain?

I can't speak for TSI, but in regards to this issue the data in question would be association of the IP to the customer in question.

So your current IP and who you are is being retained as a minimum of 3 months.

If you have a static IP, or use TSI voip, then it's retained for a long time. It may even be perpetually associated to TSI's account receivables, who knows. Or in their system which already has data on people that never had their service and who cancelled an order 3 years ago.

In regards their accounts receivable (accounting records which are retained for a minimum of 7 years), keep in mind that they do track usage. But, again, who knows how they setup their accounting (IP Versus usage Versus Bill-to-name & account number).

So no, it isn't 3 months across the board for everyone. Obviously. I don't think they are being very transparent about this, IMO (keep in mind the "security issue" of changing someones static IP). But IP association to the person should be only 3 months for dynamic IP's like Bell and Videotron stated in court that theirs are. But who really knows...


TSI Gabe
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-03
Chatham, ON
kudos:7
reply to voxframe

the only reason why I personally am not giving further details is because I'm not a lawyer and this starts falling in the area that I'd rather not shoot myself in the foot.

I'm not intentionally trying to hide anything.

After 90 days at the moment the logs are simply wiped out. We do however archive your usage data *but* it does not contain your IP address.
--
TSI Gabe - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )


Torabo

join:2009-09-01

said by TSI Gabe:

the only reason why I personally am not giving further details is because I'm not a lawyer and this starts falling in the area that I'd rather not shoot myself in the foot.

I'm not intentionally trying to hide anything.

After 90 days at the moment the logs are simply wiped out. We do however archive your usage data *but* it does not contain your IP address.

Slightly off topic but, is this true for Ontario Cable internet customers as well right now? I would love to be able to ask for my usage data so I can see how much I used over the past year... I accidentally reset my own logs the other day...

dad_of_3

join:2004-05-31
SE Ontario
reply to TSI Marc

So lets say for instance I was engaged in p2p activity that the copyright trolls would flag. And lets say I engaged in this activity for 1 week. Now, at the end of this 1 week lets say I ceased all p2p activity.

Question 1- Does this mean that the trolls only have 90 days to find out who I am?

Question 2 - Will TSI advise me that a request has been made for my information before they give it up, at the same time, or some time after they give it up.

I'm also not clear on what triggers our being notified. Is it a simple request from a troll, or will they only notify when a court order is presented?

Thanks


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TSI Marc

I have an interesting question, and it does blow the topic off on a tangent (Sorry!).

This is a downright scary question, and my apologies to TSI staff as it's something they would probably rather not be asked, nor answer, and I am sure it falls right into the hands of needing legal advice to answer.

Being that we are constantly hearing about this in the new of USA, I wonder how/if it fits in here at all.

Does TSI provide any facility for law enforcement or other etc, to directly "tap" a customer's internet feed for them to monitor/copy/store/whatever. In the USA it's CALEA compliance, and you simply are required by law to have it if you're a provider. In Canada my understanding is it doesn't *need* to be there, but they'd like it to be.

For instance our network is CALEA compliant, (Only because our hardware vendors have it implemented so it's only there by default), but it's never been used, nor honestly would we have any idea how to use it without having to really look into it.

I am assuming TSI would have such an implementation, and that I would find to be far more worrying than any log retention time. I'm pretty sure you guys can't answer the question, and I do apologize for asking it and shining a light on something that you'd probably not want to talk about. But it's a general question that I'm wondering about since we are grazing the topic.

Thanks guys.

Expand your moderator at work

byebye_cable

join:2010-01-14
Scarborough, ON
reply to voxframe

Re: Blog: Recent Developments in Canadian Copyright Law

Is downloading over?



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to voxframe

we don't have anything like that..
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



callous99

@swissinet.com

But since it goes through rogers, they might have that...


Teknohe

join:2010-08-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to byebye_cable

You can still download all you want, just make sure your public IP address isn't the one provided by Teksavvy.


byebye_cable

join:2010-01-14
Scarborough, ON

Thanks - what's the best way of doing this?


mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13

Sign up for, and use, a third-party "VPN" service from a provider not based in the USA or Canada. And use a portal from them which is located in a more user-friendly part of the world.


byebye_cable

join:2010-01-14
Scarborough, ON

Thanks, could you provide a link to a reasonable service?

Would this work with "member" torrent sites where you are expected to maintain a ratio?



Fredtek

join:2009-09-05
reply to TSI Marc

This should not have been translated with google translate in french as it is really awful.

»www.teksavvy.com/fr/why-teksavvy···teur-faq


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Michael Geist just posted a blog about this
»www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6718/125/
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to Fredtek

said by Fredtek:

This should not have been translated with google translate in french as it is really awful.

»www.teksavvy.com/fr/why-teksavvy···teur-faq

We do need a really good translation service that's very quick with turn around.. usually these things happen and there isn't much time so the translation is always something like that...

..and, you really dont want me to translate it myself. my written french is terrible.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to byebye_cable

said by byebye_cable:

Thanks, could you provide a link to a reasonable service? Would this work with "member" torrent sites where you are expected to maintain a ratio?

I've sent you some links for services via IM.