 DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
Whole house water helpI've been meaning to address a whole house low volume issue for a while. I figured I'd pass it by you guys first before I get in a plumber so I know what I'm talking about. I've checked the pressure on every level of the house and it's 50-55 psi. I called the city and they said the pressure I'm getting from them is the best they can do. The main line coming from the city is 3/4" then it goes into the meter and the main house line is 1/2" copper. From what I've been able to find out that's part of the problem but there's no easy way to replace that line so I need other options. I'm thinking a pressure tank with pump might be the ticket but again I'm only going off what I can find on Google. Any help would be great then I'll call in a plumber to check it out and do the work. |
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 jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ |
jjoshua
Premium Member
2012-Dec-3 10:54 am
You have normal water pressure. What's the actual problem? |
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 cdruGo Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN |
to Draiman
The pressure tank and pump would only help for small uses of water. How much a small use would be is going to vary based on the pressure tank size. A shower for instance is likely to go through that capacity for modest sized tanks quickly and then you're right back to where you started. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
to jjoshua
said by jjoshua:You have normal water pressure. What's the actual problem?
Volume is the issue but it seems you need to increase pressure to increase volume. Most of the stuff I see online says you want around 70 psi so being at 50ish means there's room for improvement. |
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1 recommendation |
to cdru
said by cdru:The pressure tank and pump would only help for small uses of water. How much a small use would be is going to vary based on the pressure tank size. A shower for instance is likely to go through that capacity for modest sized tanks quickly and then you're right back to where you started.
The pressure and volume would be dependent on the capacity of the pump not the pressure tank. It would be no different than a well pump set up. The tank is just to keep the pump from cutting on every time water is drawn dropping the pressure If the pump is sized right you can pull all the water you want at the pressure you want. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
Just stumbled onto a pressure tank manufactures site. You can use a tank without a pump as well. The cities pressure fills the tank. Given the pressure is like 55ish psi from the city that might be a possibility as well.
That said I called a plumber to come out and look at it tonight. |
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1 recommendation |
to Draiman
said by Draiman:said by jjoshua:You have normal water pressure. What's the actual problem?
Volume is the issue but it seems you need to increase pressure to increase volume. Most of the stuff I see online says you want around 70 psi so being at 50ish means there's room for improvement. What is their reasoning for the 70 psi? Nobody on a well system has that kind of pressure. I do just fine with my 50 psi. I used to have 55 psi but my pump is wearing so I had to lower the pressure switch. |
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jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
1 recommendation |
to Draiman
Where and when are you seeing low volume? |
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 garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI |
to Draiman
Yes, a booster pump and tank would probably help, but it'd likely be simpler and less expensive to just replace that 1/2" main (which is way under-sized) with 3/4 or 1". PEX isn't expensive and is easy enough to DIY. |
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jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ |
to Draiman
said by Draiman:Just stumbled onto a pressure tank manufactures site. You can use a tank without a pump as well. The cities pressure fills the tank. Given the pressure is like 55ish psi from the city that might be a possibility as well.
That said I called a plumber to come out and look at it tonight.
That only makes sense if you don't have a constant pressure source. You do. It would only help in conjunction with a pressure booster pump. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:Yes, a booster pump and tank would probably help, but it'd likely be simpler and less expensive to just replace that 1/2" main (which is way under-sized) with 3/4 or 1". PEX isn't expensive and is easy enough to DIY.
As I said that's not possible. It's a fully finished basement and there is built in cabinets around the main with no access to replace unless you cut/rip the cabinets out. |
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| Draiman |
to jjoshua
said by jjoshua:Where and when are you seeing low volume?
Pressure/volume stays the same no matter what we do. Even with 2 showers going it's the same as just the kitchen sink running. It's not horrible if you install low flow stuff but still sub-par on the best day. It takes 1 minute 40 seconds to fill up the humidifier container. It use to take ~60 seconds at the old place. I believe the contain is like 3 gallons. Just looking to improve that from 1 minute 40 seconds to as close to 60 seconds as I can. If I could boost the water by even 30% that would be perfect. |
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to Draiman
said by Draiman:said by garys_2k:Yes, a booster pump and tank would probably help, but it'd likely be simpler and less expensive to just replace that 1/2" main (which is way under-sized) with 3/4 or 1". PEX isn't expensive and is easy enough to DIY.
As I said that's not possible. It's a fully finished basement and there is built in cabinets around the main with no access to replace unless you cut/rip the cabinets out. Then surface mount the new 3/4 trunk pipe. Pipe friction is killing you. Keep the trunk as 3/4 or 1 inch until you reach the riser pipes that go off to individual rooms. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
2 edits |
This looks like a good tank or some other brand of Pre-Charged Pressure Tank. » www.flotecpump.com/Resid ··· 110.aspx40ish gallons is plenty for a shower with water saver heads. Looking at the manual for this tank it might be an option to install two of these type tanks. It says that doubles the drawdown. |
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to Draiman
50 to 55 lb pressure is considered to be fairly normal household water pressure. If as you say the pressure stay the same even with multiple fixtures open then I am not fully understanding why you think you have an issue.
Some of the suggestions, like adding a booster pump or increasing pipe size really wont help. Pumps can only work with the water available. If the city is supplying water at a set rate a pump can only provide a boost in pressure if for say the horizontal runs creates lower pressure in certain areas of the house. But you have already stated that pressure is constant. |
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jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ |
to Draiman
According to this calculator, 50PSI through a 1/2 pipe should give you much more water than you're currently getting. » www.uiweb.uidaho.edu/ext ··· Hose.htm1/2" hose, 50PSI, 200' = 3GPM. Any chance that your pipe is internally restricted somewhere? |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
said by jjoshua:Any chance that your pipe is internally restricted somewhere? Possibly but no where I can see. I've check the main from the city and it's open all the way. There is no reduction value I can see. All the sinks are open all the way and new low flow aerators were installed last year. It could be in the pipes somewhere I guess the profession will have to look at it and see. If nothing else it looks like we need to increase the pressure to 60-70 psi to get a higher gpm flow. |
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Yes there is a restriction, the low flow aerators really suck. In this house and my previous residence the master bath was located on the opposite side of the house as the water heater. It took forever to get hot water. I replaced the aerators in my previous residence with full flow aerators and that mitigated the problem. I do not have the same luxury in this house. I cannot find a full flow aerator for the bathroom sinks in this house. It can take up to one minute to fill a gallon jug in the kitchen. You might check and find out what the rating is on the flow restriction on your aerators. They can vary from 0.2 GPM to 1.5 GPM. Check with the manufacture of your faucets to find out what aerator options that you have. |
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to Draiman
Check if you have a half-closed valve somewhere. Main valve? Valves at the meter?
I have a PRV set at 50psi, 3/4 main. I'm getting 7gpm at the outside faucets.
What volume are you getting? Did you try to measure? Fill a bucket with water using gallon jugs for reference, mark the level, see how long it takes to fill from outside faucet to the same level to get the real flow rate. |
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garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI |
to Draiman
Yes, see how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket at the laundry sink and at the outside faucet farthest from the meter. Then, repeat with both faucets running. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:Yes there is a restriction, the low flow aerators really suck. In this house and my previous residence the master bath was located on the opposite side of the house as the water heater. It took forever to get hot water. I replaced the aerators in my previous residence with full flow aerators and that mitigated the problem. I do not have the same luxury in this house. I cannot find a full flow aerator for the bathroom sinks in this house. It can take up to one minute to fill a gallon jug in the kitchen. You might check and find out what the rating is on the flow restriction on your aerators. They can vary from 0.2 GPM to 1.5 GPM. Check with the manufacture of your faucets to find out what aerator options that you have.
They are .5 gpm in the bathroom sinks & 1.5 gpm showerheads. The kitchen sink is a normal Moen that says 3.0 gpm on it. |
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said by patcat88:said by Draiman:said by garys_2k:Yes, a booster pump and tank would probably help, but it'd likely be simpler and less expensive to just replace that 1/2" main (which is way under-sized) with 3/4 or 1". PEX isn't expensive and is easy enough to DIY.
As I said that's not possible. It's a fully finished basement and there is built in cabinets around the main with no access to replace unless you cut/rip the cabinets out. Then surface mount the new 3/4 trunk pipe. Pipe friction is killing you. Keep the trunk as 3/4 or 1 inch until you reach the riser pipes that go off to individual rooms. Replying to a PM. Take the shelves out, cut out the back of the cabinet. Nobody can see there are cut marks if the cabinet doors are closed. Or take the cabinets down. Need a few guys to do it but its easy. Once the back of the cabinet is cut (dont cut structural boards that make up the cabinet), the backsplash drywall can be cut too, and then 3 to 4 pieces of pipe with couplers, from the floor to the ceiling. Or use PEX and snake it behind the cabinets. Why are there cabinets above the meter? Is the meter hidden in the cabinet? Your cabinets are probably a plumbing code violation anyway if they make the meter inaccessible. You never know who (FD, cops, renter, house sitter, guest) has to turn the water off in an emergency. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
The meter is in the corner in a cabinet coming out of the floor. There is a small hole in the back where it then goes behind the cabinets and through the cabinets about 10-12 feet then into a fixed wood panel ceiling. It also passes through a closet but it's exposed there. Removing the cabinets is out per the wife. She just went through months of construction from an addition and refuses to deal with more of that anytime soon. That said there isn't thousands of dollars in the budget for this more like $750 tops. |
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| Draiman |
I just looked up the humidifier info online. It's 2.1 gallons and it takes 1 minute 40 seconds to fill up in the kitchen sink. I'll try it in the basement sink that's only a few feet from the main line tonight. Online calculator says that like 1.2 gpm. » www.1728.org/flow.htm |
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garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI |
garys_2k
Premium Member
2012-Dec-3 1:26 pm
The kitchen sink may have a flow restriction in it, hopefully the laundry tub or outside faucet won't. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
said by garys_2k:The kitchen sink may have a flow restriction in it, hopefully the laundry tub or outside faucet won't.
I'll test a few spots tonight. |
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Bob4Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey |
to Draiman
said by Draiman:They are .5 gpm in the bathroom sinks & 1.5 gpm showerheads. No wonder you have a flow problem. I replaced my aerators with 2.2 GPM ones. I'm not sure if you said, but you have copper pipes? Best bet is to put 3/4" pipes from the water meter to at least the point where the pipe splits to feed the water heater. That's my arrangement. |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC |
Just looked up the kitchen sink faucet and Moen says it's 2.2 gpm. The humidifier container is 2.1 gallons so it should be 1 minute to fill up. I'll try to remove the aerator tonight. I'll also turn the hot and cold again to make sure they are open all the way. I only use straight cold for testing though. |
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Draiman
1 edit |
to Bob4
said by Bob4:said by Draiman:They are .5 gpm in the bathroom sinks & 1.5 gpm showerheads. No wonder you have a flow problem. I replaced my aerators with 2.2 GPM ones. I'm not sure if you said, but you have copper pipes? Best bet is to put 3/4" pipes from the water meter to at least the point where the pipe splits to feed the water heater. That's my arrangement. They couldn't handle 1.5 gpms so to increase the pressure you have to restrict the volume. It's basic stuff. The volume is still an issue that's only a band aid fix. I'd like to reinstall the 1.5 gpm aerators but the volume needs to improve first......hence the post. Yes it's copper as stated in the first post.  |
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 Ken
MVM
join:2003-06-16
Markle, IN
1 recommendation |
Ken
MVM
2012-Dec-3 2:44 pm
You said the main lines are copper, are the stub outs copper as well? I've seen many cases where the entire home is done in copper but the 6" stub outs coming out of the wall are galvanized steel. Over time they fill up with deposits and almost completely close off. I've seen this on the galvanized piece connecting the copper hot line to the water heater as well. |
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