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HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Gone

Re: [Rant] New Laptop with Win8 - do not like!

said by Gone:

That's why Start8 is worth even penny of the $5 it costs (that is, if you want to be legitimate, anyway. There's ways around that ).

Yeah, I'll save the $5 and stay with Windows 7...

I just hope MS comes to their senses and will enable an option or something to disable that metro crap for someone who just wants to use the desktop as it was intended.
--



Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
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join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to TOPDAWG

If it worked (which it sure as frack does not), its like MS Bob, it is a program which does nothing except to open up other programs. Most of the time you end up on the desktop anyways - why bother with it at all.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

1 recommendation

reply to Thane_Bitter

Start8 does support group policy management.

I can't comment much on ClassicShell. All I can say is that Start8 allows you to replicate the Windows 7 start menu *EXACTLY*, and most of the bugs have been fixed by v1.03a or the latest beta (v1.09). It also allows you to boot to the desktop, and disable all the Win8 hotpoints. With Start8, you can pretend Metro doesn't exist 99% of the time. The only time I have to go into Metro is for the few settings that were moved from regular control panels to the Metro settings.

Start8 for $5 is an extremely good value considering how much it improves the usability of Windows 8.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by Guspaz:

All I can say is that Start8 allows you to replicate the Windows 7 start menu *EXACTLY*

Wow, it's tough to argue with you, that using 'exactly' with stars in capital letters is a bit of a stretch as there are nuanced differences... but it's pretty damned close to original! Impressively so.

I just threw it on to evaluate how much better it is than the last time I used it and it actually works now for me. I'd say it's closer to Windows 7 start menu than Classic Shell... but since Classic Shell is free and does the same thing it's a tough call. I do prefer how classic shell has a separate menu for 'programs' and 'metro apps' whereas Start8 it's a submenu but that's a quibbling difference.

So basically it comes down to Classic Shell if you want a good, free solution or Start8 if you want to pay a few bucks for exactly the same looking menu you had in Windows 7.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Thane_Bitter

said by Thane_Bitter:

Actually no I don't, never had it, you are among the minority though I don't think there was much of a difference between it and Windows 7.

I love XP...but I'll take vista...Still have an XP machine rockin it...it does my output to a TV when I'm doing stuff like Netflix and rogers on demand when I watched Blue Jays games...other than that it has no purpose, but it works, and works well for whats under the hood, 2gb ram, aging Core2DuoE6600...from like 2008...it does what I need it to do, so I'll keep it running...


Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to urbanriot

ClassicShell being free is definitely a bonus in its favour, but it doesn't seem to have options to boot-to-desktop or disable hotspots in Win8. IMO those are useful things to.

In fact there are some features in ClassicShell that I'm interested in other than the start menu, so it may be worth combining the two; Start8 for the start menu and metro/hotspot things, and ClassicShell for stuff like the explorer status bars (if they work in Win8).

I really miss in Win8 the ability to tell the resolution of an image from Explorer. I can't figure out how to get that info short of the file's properties dialog, which is tedious if you have a bunch of files to check.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



urbanriot
Premium
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Canada
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by Guspaz:

ClassicShell being free is definitely a bonus in its favour, but it doesn't seem to have options to boot-to-desktop or disable hotspots in Win8. IMO those are useful things to.

!? ... yes it does. ClassicShell has waaay more options than Start8 has and one of them is 'skip metro' and 'disable active areas'.


Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

said by urbanriot:

!? ... yes it does. ClassicShell has waaay more options than Start8 has and one of them is 'skip metro' and 'disable active areas'.

Well, they're not mentioned on the ClassicShell website on either the "Features" page or "FAQ" page, so it's not an unreasonable assumption to make.

I only found it when I dug into the changelog.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot

I simply don't like the way Classic Shell looks. Start8 seems to have done a better job at replicating the new Windows 8 desktop UI and what a proper start menu might have looked like than anything else I've seen.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Thane_Bitter

ClassicShell supports skinning, I think. That said, there are a variety of different appearance options for Start8. You can get a complete replication of Win7, a flat-shaded replication of Win7, a flat square replication of Win7, or a metro-in-a-menu option (which I guess is what you're talking about).

BTW, for those who try Start8 and miss the classic Windows 7 start menu image, Start8 ships with a few extra images that aren't built-in. If you click "browse" for the image, you can pick from the extra images. There are a few that replicate the Win7 look.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



TOPDAWG
Premium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON
kudos:3
reply to Thane_Bitter

So anyone using 8 with the Start8 is the OS really much faster then 7? someone give me a key to 8 so I don't mind spending 5 bucks on Start8.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by TOPDAWG:

So anyone using 8 with the Start8 is the OS really much faster then 7? someone give me a key to 8 so I don't mind spending 5 bucks on Start8.

Yes it is faster, albeit I've run into some weird quirks with stuttering audio and video. Not sure if it's driver related, but I've also read about some input latency issues that people were bitching about during the previews.

alexpb1

join:2005-06-23
Barrie, ON
reply to Thane_Bitter

If you get a program to disable that metro start menu, I find Windows 8 to be excellent. To make a good OS and then go and ruin it by forcing everyone to use that stupid metro UI is mind boggling.

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft includes the start menu option in the future in a service pack update or something. Too many people dislike the change.



Thane_Bitter
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·Bell Sympatico

said by alexpb1:

If you get a program to disable that metro start menu, I find Windows 8 to be excellent. To make a good OS and then go and ruin it by forcing everyone to use that stupid metro UI is mind boggling.

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft includes the start menu option in the future in a service pack update or something. Too many people dislike the change.

Not sure it disabling it is a good idea; it seems that some of the functions (configuration, settings, etc) are split between the old system and the new one. It is like they just gave up when they started to code it and left bits here and there - neither is completely whole or functional. Overall I found Sever 2012 to be much more user friendly and logical to operate.

It would be nice if they did, however MS seems to be avoiding issuing service packs, there is more money in "refreshing it" as a new product.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Thane_Bitter

I missed the window of opportunity to order a new system with Win 7 but fortunately I have several spare Win 7 Pro licenses and the only concern is appropriate driver support for the new hardware. If there is a problem installing 7 on a new system, it's going right back.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Thane_Bitter

said by Thane_Bitter:

Not sure it disabling it is a good idea; it seems that some of the functions (configuration, settings, etc) are split between the old system and the new one. It is like they just gave up when they started to code it and left bits here and there - neither is completely whole or functional. Overall I found Sever 2012 to be much more user friendly and logical to operate.

It would be nice if they did, however MS seems to be avoiding issuing service packs, there is more money in "refreshing it" as a new product.

Start8 allows you to leave your right Windows key bound to the "Metro" start screen, or CTRL-Start. Either one lets you still get into Metro in a pinch.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to alexpb1

The Start Menu will not be included in a future service pack because the desktop is eventually going away altogether, making a Start Menu unnecessary.

There may however, be a version of the Start Menu in the modern UI where all apps will eventually be launched from.

While desktops will continue have a place in the market, its heydey is over. The future is convergence and mobile/convertible.

»www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2412734,00.asp
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
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reply to Thane_Bitter

It's possible, but the market has not yet indicated that convergence of desktops and tablets is what it actually wants. There has been a lot of resistance to Win8, leading to slow sales, and even then some of those sales are people who use primarily desktop apps (or even use something like Start8).

Surface Pro seems to be suffering, because most people aren't sure why they would want it instead of a similarly priced ultrabook. Surface RT is a decent product, but sales have sucked, and it doesn't really compete with desktops/laptops so much as it competes with the iPad.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

The Start Menu will not be included in a future service pack because the desktop is eventually going away altogether, making a Start Menu unnecessary.

Microsoft's bread and butter is the corporate world, and for that reason the desktop isn't going anywhere until Microsoft can figure out a way to window Modern UI applications so that multiple programs/windows can be used simultaneously without having to switch between multiple full-screen sessions or fart around with limited workspace in the second.

Keep in mind, it was and still is called Windows for a reason.

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

It's possible, but the market has not yet indicated that convergence of desktops and tablets is what it actually wants. There has been a lot of resistance to Win8, leading to slow sales, and even then some of those sales are people who use primarily desktop apps (or even use something like Start8).

That's kind of it. I like having my smartphone for portable internet, my 13" laptop for travel, and my desktop for home. I really don't like small screens except for the portability factor.

The only reason I'd use a smartphone/tablet for internet, is because I didn't have immediate access to something else. My over all preference is still to use a pc with mouse/keyboard/full sized screen for most things.

I guess what's changed is the gaps between pc upgrades. I used to buy a new one every 3 years and the gap between my last two were nearly 5 years. I imagine I'm not the only once. People are still using PC's/laptops but technology is getting to the point where upgrades aren't need as often. Since Microsoft pushes their new OS on the newest hardware it affects their bottom line.

I'm in no rush to upgrade to an OS that needs me to pay $5 to make it operate more like the OS I already have. MS seems to have put all their eggs in the tablet basket, but I'm not sure that will pay off. If I were them I would of hedge the bet and made the metro/desktop interfaces a choice so they could win on both accounts.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
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Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

1 edit
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

Microsoft's bread and butter is the corporate world, and for that reason the desktop isn't going anywhere

Yea, I shake my head every time I see one of these articles or some of the posts in various areas of this forum, clearly written by teenagers who haven't participated professionally in 'the real world'. This whole mobile convergence idea, get back to me in 5 years and tell me how well it allowed people to work with large spreadsheets and type up documents.

The only 'cutting edge' attempt I've seen at using a mobile device is a company trying to migrate their MSDS and SOP documentation to iPads... but then they found document conversation software was shit so they gave up and they're re-evaluating it this month, to see if they can use Windows RT w/Excel. It's still not a desktop replacement, it's an enhancement to the way things are done now.

I've also seen a backlash against BYOD at two large multinationals, to the point where mobile phones are banned, so I'm not entirely sure this convergence will happen to the point some young folks would like. From what I've seen, BYOD = Facebook at work to navigate corporate firewalls.


FaxCap

join:2002-05-25
Surrey, BC
reply to Thane_Bitter

Sure glad I grabbed a copy of Win7 when I bought the parts for my Black Friday box.

FaxCap



HiVolt
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Toronto, ON
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reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

I missed the window of opportunity to order a new system with Win 7 but fortunately I have several spare Win 7 Pro licenses and the only concern is appropriate driver support for the new hardware. If there is a problem installing 7 on a new system, it's going right back.

I don't think there will be driver issues for Win7 for many years to come...
--



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

Not for retail components, but there well might be for OEM hardware. Like if Dell comes up with a new video chipset that only Windows 8 supports, because neither Microsoft, Dell, or the chipset provider had any incentive to develop a Win 7 driver.

I had the reverse problem on an old laptop -- older hardware, newer OS -- which you would think would be a no-brainer since the hardware was very recent. It dates back to the Vista days but I got it with XP, and later upgraded to 7. Win 7 did not have native support for the video chipset which had only been discontinued less than a year before, and couldn't run advanced video features like Aero. Luckily, after doing a bunch of research I was able to find a particular version of a Vista driver that worked perfectly with Win 7 (none of the others did) but AMD had no interest whatsoever in providing a proper supported driver for it.
--
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan



HiVolt
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Reviews:
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Yeah laptops, especially cheapie ones are sometimes like this... I've encountered similar issues with Vista laptops that I had a helluva time finding XP drivers for obscure audio drivers or some other crap that didnt have backward XP drivers...

This was especially a pisser when Vista came out, and everyone hated it so much they were changing back to XP...

But with self built pc's this isnt a problem.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Wolfie00

OEM hardware almost always had a retail counterpart. Even if there is no "official" driver listed on a manufacturers website there is almost always an OEM driver available that either works outright, or you can make work with little effort. You're not going to run into any real issues.

The only real difference between Visa and Windows 7 video drivers are WDDM 1.0 support in Vista and 1.1 support in Windows 7. To the end user, that means nothing. You can still use Ethernet, Sound and other non-video peripheral drivers from as far back as Windows 2000 on 32-bit versions of Windows 7.



HiVolt
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I had a real issue with a Dell Studio laptop that came with Vista a few years ago...

Going back to XP all the audio drivers that would work, would screw up the onboard microphone, so it was useless for video conferencing...

It took some people getting together in a forum to hack a working driver for it...

Problem is that it wasn't the common realtek audio, it was some weird "IDT Audio" that is not commonly used....
--



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by HiVolt:

Problem is that it wasn't the common realtek audio, it was some weird "IDT Audio" that is not commonly used....

... that's because IDT Audio is IDT Audio, not Realtek audio. HD Audio was a pain in the ass back in the XP days. You typically needed to install an HD Audio driver for Windows XP, and then the actual codec driver for the manufacturer of the codec. Still, I've gotten that exact setup working with IDT Audio drivers more times than I can count. Not only that, but Dell had a shitload of Vostro and Latitudes that used the same audio codec with XP downgrade rights, you could have just downloaded the audio driver for them and it would have worked on your Studio.


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

I've also need a backlash against BYOD

English pls


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

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