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DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15
reply to GTFan

Re: Say goodbye to ClearQAM

said by GTFan:

Way overdue after the FCC shirked their duty with AllVid. Instead they're just going to keep kicking the can down the road and hope cable comes up with something.

»apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017143898

I think the FCC and Cable are done trying to create standards that the CEA won't back or say they will and then don't. They've been burned and spent way too much money which gets passed on to customers, for nothing it seems, being forced to develop solutions to support the CEA.

Cable has adapted to what the CEA already put to market (i.e. Smart TVs and some media consoles) and released secure IPTV clients for them. Satellite and other providers have adopted it too. They're pushing their contracts with channel broadcasters to allow it, developing and going to court over network DVR functionality, and developing and revamping their networks for data channels in place of video channels.

The closest thing to "AllVid" getting released will be in the form of a stand alone Android or iOS media center box which can run cable company or channel created client apps. AppleTV, Roku, and GoogleTV can do it now, but they can't get enough video channel support yet to make a compelling line up at a low enough price. I'm sure compulsory channel packages have something to do with it.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03

If you read the FCC waiver I linked, you'll see that they want a standard. They're just waiting for cable to come up with one (likely based on DLNA), which essentially means nothing is going to happen.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

Charter's response (»apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?···22078929) to the CEA's objections to their set-top security integration ban waiver request, from today's Light Reading Cable news round-up article:

Charter Strikes Back at the CEA
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - December 14, 2012
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable

Charter Communications Inc. rejected assertions from the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and others that a chip the cable operator wants to use for a new downloadable security system in digital set-top boxes is proprietary and will support only Charter's service and conditional access system. Charter is seeking a two-year waiver from the July 2007 set-top security integration ban so it can deploy dual security boxes containing silicon that would support the future downloadable security system alongside the traditional integrated conditional access system. Once Charter activates the downloadable system, it intends to use a "simulcrypt" system that will also allow it to support televisions and TiVo Inc. boxes purchased at retail that use CableCARD security.

In its reply comments at the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) , Charter said the downloadable chip would rely on the same "commodity chips" that Cablevision Systems Corp. now uses for its downloadable system, and that the silicon can support security systems other than the one Charter wants to deploy. Cablevision's system, like the one being proposed by Charter, relies on the NDS (now Cisco Systems Inc.) key ladder as the "hardware root of trust," which will be offered on an open, royalty-free basis for use by other retail "host" (i.e. set-tops, televisions, and other connected devices), the MSO added. Charter intends to use its downloadable system as a key component of its all-digital video migration. The CEA wants the FCC to reject the request for temporary waiver and instead pursue a CableCARD successor called AllVid that would be applied to all pay-TV providers.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03

If it's a chip used by Charter STBs for their own downloadable security it's not an open cable standard, period. They're just trying to confuse the issue.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by GTFan:

If it's a chip used by Charter STBs for their own downloadable security it's not an open cable standard, period. They're just trying to confuse the issue.

Well, it sounds like the chip Charter is talking about is not currently in use by them:
... that a chip the cable operator wants to use for a new downloadable security system in digital set-top boxes ...
:
Charter said the downloadable chip would rely on the same "commodity chips" that Cablevision Systems Corp. now uses for its downloadable system, and that the silicon can support security systems other than the one Charter wants to deploy.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03

That is irrelevant to the point, which is that any new chip is by definition not a standard until CableLabs or the FCC says it is.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by GTFan:

That is irrelevant to the point, which is that any new chip is by definition not a standard until CableLabs or the FCC says it is.

Any idea then, what these "commodity chips" are that Cablevision currently uses for its downloadable system?


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by telcodad:

Any idea then, what these "commodity chips" are that Cablevision currently uses for its downloadable system?

I think I found some info on it, they may be using a new "open" downloadable conditional access system (DCAS) that uses the NDS "key ladder" (KLAD) and VideoGuard conditional access system:

Cablevision Scores Set-Top Waiver Extension
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - January 20, 2009
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable

Cablevision May Take Security for a Spin(off)
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - December 13, 2010
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable

Cablevision Makes its Security Deadline
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - January 20, 2011
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

1 edit

An article on the LRC site about Broadcom introducing their latest DTA chipset, the BCM7576, that will be used to deploy the proposed E-DTAs, which will allow cable companies to meet one of the conditions they agreed to for allowing encryption of their their digital basic-tier channels.

Once these E-DTAs become available, you'll likely see the basic-tier encryption begin rolling out quickly.

New DTA Will Extend Cable TV to Retail Devices
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - March 11, 2013
»www.lightreading.com/internet-vi···40150431

EDIT: The press release on it: »www.broadcom.com/press/release.p···=s746990



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by telcodad:

An article on the LRC site about Broadcom introducing their latest DTA chipset, the BCM7576, that will be used to deploy the proposed E-DTAs, which will allow cable companies to meet one of the conditions they agreed to for allowing encryption of their their digital basic-tier channels.

Once these E-DTAs become available, you'll likely see the basic-tier encryption begin rolling out quickly.

New DTA Will Extend Cable TV to Retail Devices
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - March 11, 2013
»www.lightreading.com/internet-vi···40150431

FYI - Just came across this new webpage on Comcast's Support site entitled "Encryption of Limited Basic Services" »customer.comcast.com/help-and-su···ryption/

At the end of that page, it says that (currently) the E-DTAs will only be available for Comcast customers with Boxee TV devices.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by telcodad:

FYI - Just came across this new webpage on Comcast's Support site entitled "Encryption of Limited Basic Services" »customer.comcast.com/help-and-su···ryption/

At the end of that page, it says that (currently) the E-DTAs will only be available for Comcast customers with Boxee TV devices.

BTW - that "DLNA Specifications" link »media2.comcast.net/anon.comcasto···sued.pdf at the end of that page is now working and brings up the latest version of Comcast's "DLNA Client Implementation Guide" which "describes [the] technical requirements ... that a DLNA client should implement to interact and interoperate with an Ethernet enabled High Definition universal Digital Transport Adapter, or EHD-uDTA" ... providing " subscribers with the ability to stream content to a DLNA capable display or player device over an Ethernet interface"
:
The EHD-uDTA provides the standard services of an HD DTA with the added ability to stream content out of an Ethernet port. The streaming of the currently tuned channel out of the Ethernet port is done according to DLNA and OCAP HNP specifications.
"


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

1 edit

In today’s cable news roundup article on the LRC site »www.lightreading.com/internet-vi···40151081 was this item:

Shares in Entropic Communications Inc. dropped more than 8 percent Monday after the chipmaker slashed first-quarter guidance because a pay-TV provider changed its deployment plans for a new class of HD-capable digital transport adapters (DTAs), leaving Entropic with excess inventory. … Entropic, which counts Broadcom Corp. as a key competitor, didn't identify the MSO in question, but Comcast Corp. is among those that are in early-stage HD-DTA deployments.
I wonder if this is Comcast deciding to deploy only Ethernet-enabled HD-DTAs (E-DTAs) now using that new BCM7576 chipset from Broadcom?

EDIT: From an Chicago Tribune article about this »articles.chicagotribune.com/2013···t-hd-dta it looks like it could be just Comcast delaying the nationwide rollout of HD-DTAs:
Benchmark Co said it believes the service provider delaying set-top box orders is Comcast Corp.

"Because of the delayed rollout of these boxes to basic cable subscribers, it will take a few quarters for HD-DTA set-top box suppliers to burn through Entropic inventory," the brokerage said.


Cozmo85

@comcast.net

Got my tv antenna perfected this past weekend. Gonna call comcast and have our basic turned off once i verify everything is good. I will never give up my hdhomerun.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

4 edits
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

An article on the LRC site about Broadcom introducing their latest DTA chipset, the BCM7576, that will be used to deploy the proposed E-DTAs, which will allow cable companies to meet one of the conditions they agreed to for allowing encryption of their their digital basic-tier channels.

Once these E-DTAs become available, you'll likely see the basic-tier encryption begin rolling out quickly.

New DTA Will Extend Cable TV to Retail Devices
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - March 11, 2013
»www.lightreading.com/internet-vi···40150431

EDIT: The press release on it: »www.broadcom.com/press/release.p···=s746990

Don't know if these E-DTAs could possibly be available yet*, but early yesterday, articles started to pop up in the main-stream media (apparently led off by this one on GigaOM »gigaom.com/2013/04/15/comcast-ba···ryption/) about Comcast beginning to notify customers in some markets that it is going to encrypt the Limited Basic channels.

I was wondering which markets have (already) sent out these notices yet, so please reply if you have received one.

* - EDIT: From this article last week on the MCN site, it does appear that a limited number of E-DTAs will soon be available:
Comcast Begins to Connect to Boxee's Cloud DVR
MSO Starts Limited Offer of E-DTAs That Let Boxee's New Video Device Access an Encrypted Form of Comcast's Basic TV Tier

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - April 11 2013
»www.multichannel.com/cable-opera···r/142668

A quote from this article: "you should start to see the E-DTAs begin to appear over the next month"


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

1 edit
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

Charter's response (»apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?···22078929) to the CEA's objections to their set-top security integration ban waiver request, from today's Light Reading Cable news round-up article:

Charter Strikes Back at the CEA
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - December 14, 2012
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable

Charter Communications Inc. rejected assertions from the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and others that a chip the cable operator wants to use for a new downloadable security system in digital set-top boxes is proprietary and will support only Charter's service and conditional access system. Charter is seeking a two-year waiver from the July 2007 set-top security integration ban so it can deploy dual security boxes containing silicon that would support the future downloadable security system alongside the traditional integrated conditional access system. Once Charter activates the downloadable system, it intends to use a "simulcrypt" system that will also allow it to support televisions and TiVo Inc. boxes purchased at retail that use CableCARD security.

In its reply comments at the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) , Charter said the downloadable chip would rely on the same "commodity chips" that Cablevision Systems Corp. now uses for its downloadable system, and that the silicon can support security systems other than the one Charter wants to deploy. Cablevision's system, like the one being proposed by Charter, relies on the NDS (now Cisco Systems Inc.) key ladder as the "hardware root of trust," which will be offered on an open, royalty-free basis for use by other retail "host" (i.e. set-tops, televisions, and other connected devices), the MSO added. Charter intends to use its downloadable system as a key component of its all-digital video migration. The CEA wants the FCC to reject the request for temporary waiver and instead pursue a CableCARD successor called AllVid that would be applied to all pay-TV providers.

FYI - Charter finally received their requested waiver to deploy their proposed downloadable security system:

Charter Scores Set-Top Waiver
FCC Grants Two-Year Waiver That Paves Way for MSO to Deploy Downloadable Security

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - April 18, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/technology/···r/142813

EDIT: The FCC waiver document: »transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Release···88A1.pdf

SpHeRe31459
Premium
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

I do think a proper industry standard downloadable security model is where everything is headed at this point.

It would also let people use things like an Xbox as a proper STB with the right secure app, etc.


GTFan

join:2004-12-03

The problem here is that this is Charter-specific. I think we all agree that Cablecard should die but the devil's in the details to get to an industry-wide standard. DLNA w/DTCP-IP is a decent bet but right now the user interface for that is hideous.


SpHeRe31459
Premium
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

said by GTFan:

The problem here is that this is Charter-specific. I think we all agree that Cablecard should die but the devil's in the details to get to an industry-wide standard. DLNA w/DTCP-IP is a decent bet but right now the user interface for that is hideous.

Not Charter specific, Cablevision uses it too (since the Charter CEO was Cablevision's COO when he implemented it there first). And technically it's available for anyone to adopt. So it's the right idea, but not quite there yet since of course it's being created by only one/two MSOs and not by a standards body like CableLabs.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by SpHeRe31459:

said by GTFan:

The problem here is that this is Charter-specific. I think we all agree that Cablecard should die but the devil's in the details to get to an industry-wide standard. DLNA w/DTCP-IP is a decent bet but right now the user interface for that is hideous.

Not Charter specific, Cablevision uses it too (since the Charter CEO was Cablevision's COO when he implemented it there first). And technically it's available for anyone to adopt. So it's the right idea, but not quite there yet since of course it's being created by only one/two MSOs and not by a standards body like CableLabs.

Yes, see this January 2011 LRC article about that:

Cablevision Makes its Security Deadline
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - January 20, 2011
»www.lightreading.com/content-pro···40128273

SpHeRe31459
Premium
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

Yep. Two key points from that article...

quote:
If the FCC turns this into a formal, proposed rulemaking, it may take another look at downloadable security and perhaps flirt with Cablevision's particular implementation, which uses the NDS Ltd. Key Ladder (KLAD) and the NDS VideoGuard conditional access system.

Likewise, sources say Cablevision is eager to push adoption of its soft security system to other MSOs, and is even considering spinning the effort into an independent entity that would handle technology licensing and other key operational tasks.
quote:
KLAD, designed by NDS to accommodate other vendors' security systems, has recently emerged as a candidate to become a Society of Cable Telecommunications Engineers (SCTE) standard.
I can't tell what if anything has happened with the open standard version of the KLAD called Open Media System (OMS) Key Ladder since the SCTE keeps most things private, but there was a work group formed in late 2011 for it.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03

2 edits

The other problem with this waiver is that if Charter gets even one CE manufacturer to handle their DCAS at retail, they can cut off new installs of Cablecard. Which essentially means no new Tivos on Charter unless they bow to whatever Charter comes up with, and Windows Media Center HTPCs will no longer be an option since MS has abandoned dev on WMC.

And let's not even get into what should have been the real answer, which is the FCC having all MSOs (not just cable) agreeing on a proposal like AllVid so consumers could buy their own STBs/TVs/DVRs and have them work with any provider.

This is a very bad precedent for a Cablecard successor, but at least it's just a two-year waiver so FCC can see what the impact will be.


SpHeRe31459
Premium
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

said by GTFan:

The other problem with this waiver is that if Charter gets even one CE manufacturer to handle their DCAS at retail, they can cut off new installs of Cablecard.


Interesting, I missed that, for Cablevision they made them say they'd support CableCARD indefinitely...

However, realistically, there aren't any retail devices aside from TiVo, and we know where they stand on all of this. So this will almost certainly be just an internal MSO thing until such time it is officially adopted as the next conditional access method or it isn't.

said by GTFan:

And let's not even get into what should have been the real answer, which is the FCC having all MSOs (not just cable) agreeing on a proposal like AllVid so consumers could buy their own STBs/TVs/DVRs and have them work with any provider.

Well of course as I said before I agree with this, the real goal should be something like AllVid from a proper open standards body.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8

said by SpHeRe31459:

said by GTFan:

The other problem with this waiver is that if Charter gets even one CE manufacturer to handle their DCAS at retail, they can cut off new installs of Cablecard.


Interesting, I missed that, for Cablevision they made them say they'd support CableCARD indefinitely...

Well, Charter is required to support all currently in-use/provisioned CableCards indefinitely also:

"Charter must also support the CableCARD indefinitely, including self-installation, and in switched digital video deployments, among other requirements.

Though, just as GTFan See Profile said, they may stop all new installs if:

"...a third-party device compatible with the MSO’s downloadable security system is available for purchase at retail.

SpHeRe31459
Premium
join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:2

That must be what I read then. I've read too many articles on the subject all back to back yesterday...



PGHammer

join:2003-06-09
Accokeek, MD
reply to GTFan

There ARE devices that actually support CableCARD properly -why should the standard die because TVs fail to support it properly?
Data point - I got a Tivo Premiere (specifically to use as an HD STB - not a subscriber to the Tivo service, and no plans to use it) and already had a CableCARD (an M-card, to be precise, and one that NEVER paired to the HDTV I originally bought it for, a Philips 423PF7320A/37, apparently due to firmware issues). When the display failed, I replaced the Philips with a 40" Sony BRAVIA LED HDTV (which does NOT support CableCARD, but does support ClearQAM). I went and bought the Premiere as opposed to leasing an STB (picked up the Premiere from Amazon for $137.22 with free shipping -this is $13 less than directly from Tivo and $23 less than Best Buy - the closest local big-box retailer). Setting up the Premiere was what any CableCARD install should be - the pairing was as painless as it gets. (It even displayed the proper toll-free number for Comcast - I was up and paired in ninety minutes - the extra time was due to having to move the paired premiere to another room to download the program guide as I do NOT have an Ethernet cable in my bedroom, where the Premiere roosts.) So how is it that a majority of TV makers in the CEA (Tivo Inc. is also a member of the CEA) muck it up, while Tivo gets it right?


GTFan

join:2004-12-03

We're talking about Charter using their own downloadable standard which could mean Cablecard users get shafted eventually, not whether CE devices properly comply with Cablecard. Nobody makes Cablecard TVs anymore so that's irrelevant, and as you said the current CE devices supporting cards (Tivo, Ceton, SiliconDust) generally work fine with them.

This discussion is about the future without cards, and the current lack of an industry standard to get there.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8
reply to telcodad

FYI - Leslie Ellis's "Translation Please" blog entry for this week discusses the Charter waiver:

What the Charter Waiver Means to Cable
MSO Can Now Deploy Boxes with Built-in Security

By Leslie Ellis, Multichannel News - April 29, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/blogs/trans···ns-cable


GTFan

join:2004-12-03

Spoken like the cable-friendly site that it's on - let the industry work it out yada yada yada. That's what tru2way was supposed to be about too, and we saw how widely that got adopted when cable wanted to force their software on CE devices.

Bottom line is that it takes a partnership between the CE industry and cable, and I'm not sure that will happen without FCC guidance.



DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:15

said by GTFan:

Bottom line is that it takes a partnership between the CE industry and cable, and I'm not sure that will happen without FCC guidance.

It's already happening with "TV Everywhere". It's on TVs, PCs, phones, set top boxes, etc...

The biggest hold up is channel owners allowing broadcast rights by IP.
--
Two is one, one is none. If it's important, have a back up... 99.999% availability just isn't enough sometimes.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:8
reply to telcodad

It looks like the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) may appeal the conditional waiver that Charter received from the FCC:

CEA Ponders Challenge to Charter Waiver
Critics of the move have until the end of the week to petition for review

By John Eggerton, Broadcasting & Cable - May 16, 2013
»www.broadcastingcable.com/articl···iver.php