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norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to koam

Re: [WIN7] Computer shut down unexpectedly

While looking around on this, I found this tool, might be worth looking running it to see what it says - although the state of the system might be worth just reading up initially without installing it.

BatteryCare
»batterycare.net/en/index.html

The faq's page suggest this:
»batterycare.net/en/faq.html

The battery is new but BatteryCare reports a high wear level

Laptop batteries are made by energy cells. In general they are 6 cells, but larger capacity batteries have 8 or 12 cells (or even more). A 6 cell battery has an average of 60000mWh of capacity when it's manufactured, the larger ones have an higher value obviously. The problem is that there are batteries that come factory programmed as being 8 or 12 cells, but in fact they just have 6 cells. So in the designed capacity, these batteries report a value corresponding to the larger batteries, for example 88000mWh, but since the battery only has 6 cells, the current capacity value is 60000mWh, which gives us a wear level of 31.8%. So if the battery is new, there's no reason to worry about. It's just a badly programmed battery.

.
Kramer See Profile and n_w95482 See Profile may be right on the mark.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
reply to n_w95482

On the battery it says

Type J1KND
Rating 11.1 V m
Capacity 48 Wh



koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
Reviews:
·Shoreham Telephone
reply to norwegian

Thank you.

I understand that the value reported for designed capacity seems less than 1/10 that of others.

The battery's capacity is supposed to be 48 Wh, which I would assume equals 48,000 mWh where a milli-Watt-hour is 1/1000 of a Wh. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The utilities say that the battery's "Designed Capacity" is 4,500 mWh or only 4.5 Wh.

4.5 Wh is only 9.375% of the printed capacity of 48 Wh.

I get that the software utilities would tell me that the actual, current "Full Charge Capacity" is not matching up with what the battery is supposed to have if the battery is degraded.

What I don't understand is why the software tools don't pick up on the battery's actual "Designed Capacity" of 48 Wh. Why do they report only 4.5 Wh (4,500 mWh)?
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
»www.kiva.org/lender/kenandart



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

said by koam:

Why do they report only 4.5 Wh (4,500 mWh)?

I think because it needs re-calibrating.

This article gives you a hint on how to re-calibrate yourself. But this is HP; it should be similar for DELL, but for safety's sake it would be worth just checking with DELL as Kramer See Profile pointed out earlier in the topic. If this doesn't help at all then you maybe up for a new one. 18 to 36 mths depending on quality is usually all a battery is good for anyway.

The laptop also should work without the battery inserted as long as you have the power lead plugged into it to keep you working should a replacement be required.

Also, pulling the battery and power for an hour or so minimum every now and then to drain all power load on the electronics also can help.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
Reviews:
·Shoreham Telephone

Thanks. After calibrating, Battery Care says
Designed C 4500
Total C 4051
Current C 3987
Charge/dis rate +0.3 W (plugged in)
Tension (V) 12584 mV
Wear Level 9.98%
Total Discharge cycles: 1
Last calibration date: No record
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
»www.kiva.org/lender/kenandart



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to koam

said by koam:

I've changed the Critical Battery Level action from Sleep to Shutdown, as it seems when it should be sleeping, it winds up crashing if unplugged.

Have you tried this setting again at all?

Maybe check in with DELL support on the issues to see what they say about all this.

Also, 2 links to batteries - new to give you an idea on costs.
The same capacity:
»www.amazon.com/Genuine-Dell-J1KN···04BVALYY

Heavier duty:
»www.battery4us.com/dell-notebook···1KND.htm
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA

3 edits
reply to koam


Wear level from original battery (Feb 2006)
I'd say the battery's hosed. The designed capacity is reported by a chip in the battery and should remain static for the life of the battery. That chip is tasked with monitoring all of the cells, recording past discharge performance, calculating current discharge performance based on the first two, and reporting that to the PC (more info here). If it's reporting numbers that far off in multiple programs, that would be the first thing I'd replace.

I haven't looked for batteries for that model, but I was able to get a replacement battery for my Dell last year on eBay for about $50. It appears to be an actual Dell battery, and so far it's wearing excellently. I can't say the same for the 12-cell batteries I've bought for my Eee PC. Those have awesome capacity at first (~15 hours with minimum brightness, no WiFi, on a first-gen Atom netbook), but by the time they're a year old, they're a paperweight.

Edit: I didn't see the link that norwegian See Profile posted above. Even cheaper than I thought .

Edit 2: I've attached a picture of my original battery. You can see how the reported designed capacity is exactly the same as the new one, while the full charge capacity has dropped as a result of cell wear and subsequent monitoring/calibration results. Surprisingly, it had 40% charge left when I popped it in. It's been sitting in a drawer since June 2011. Awesome battery .
--
KI6RIT


koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
Reviews:
·Shoreham Telephone

Thank you all. Yeah I guess the battery has serious issues. That's not too big a deal. It's strange that the "Designed Capacity" is so misreported. It's an original Dell battery.

Earlier this year when my other computer died on me, a few things started going at once. Suddenly the hard drive was corrupted in addition to what seemed like hardware issues. It was very confusing and I never recovered the drive or the computer.

So when I saw the issue with the system drive after running diagnostics I was really worried about this computer. Still am a bit.
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
»www.kiva.org/lender/kenandart



koam
Pink Pecker
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·Shoreham Telephone

Click for full size

CPUID Hardware Monitor Jan 26
Today, the same computer shut down to black screen while using it. The power supply was plugged in and the battery in, fully charged, 100%.

Restarting it gave the same Windows warning that Win 7 had shut down unexpectedly.
It's the same old battery, but it has been performing OK, just has a short life when unplugged.

The event image above is when it happened. The same event, 41, has happened 2x before in Jan. 4x in Dec. 5x each in Nov, Oct, Sep. 6x in Aug, 10x in Jul.

My original post in this thread documents the one time I saw the computer crash unexpectedly. The other incidences of the 41 error may correspond to when the power drained down, such as the plug came out (falls out easily) and computer was left to wind down on its own. After OP I changed some power settings to try to get a more orderly power down under low power levels. Today was the first time I've seen an unexpected black screen shut off since my OP on Dec 3. Today is Jan 26.

While I know the battery is old and sub-optimal, the power cord was plugged in this time and the computer should have continued working even if the battery had an issue. As soon as it went black I checked that the power cord was plugged in. As soon as it restarted, the battery was at 100%.

CPUID Hardware Monitor run about an hour after restarting.
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
»www.kiva.org/lender/kenandart


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

1 recommendation


Looking over CPUID, I'd almost say it was shutting down to save over heating. All those temps are high, not excessively, but still very high.



Scilicet
Spaced Out
Premium
join:2005-04-11
Aurora, CO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Vonage

1 edit
reply to koam

Click for full size
Did you notice the Kernel-Power warning just 4 seconds prior to your highlighted Error? Can you post your system info showing CPU Fan Speed? If the fan is failing your CPU will heat up and shut down your system as well.

I like to use this program for System Info. If you select 'Sensors' you can get a bit more info: »www.gtopala.com/

If you google up 'SIW' you should be able to find a free version.
--
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ~ Nikola Tesla


koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
reply to norwegian

Thanks. I wondered if it was the internal heat because it was sitting on a blanket. However it was in a very cool house, and sitting on a blanket is a frequent use. Would Event Log show a heat alert notification or Event?



koam
Pink Pecker
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join:2000-08-16
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·Shoreham Telephone
reply to Scilicet

Click for full size
Thanks. I didn't get a warning while using the computer before it blacked out. Are you speaking of a log entry?

I got the SIW program and can get the temps under Sensors, but I don't know how to see the fans. Any ideas?

Here is an image of the sensors.
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
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Scilicet
Spaced Out
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·Vonage

Yes, I was referring to your event log in your OP at 3:04:20 PM. The Critical Kernel-Power event may mean that a crowbar circuit removed power to you CPU to protect it from damage. Overheating or excessive current drain can trigger this as a safeguard. If the fan speed doesn't show in the SIW it may mean that your board or boot ROM just doesn't provide for that particular information.

With power off, your CPU fan should spin freely when you give it a gentle push with you finger. If there is any resistance at all it may mean that the bearings are wearing out. Watch it as you turn power on. It should spin at a good speed immediately. If it hesitates or picks up speed slowly it might be a good idea to replace it. Unfortunately, it's not an easy job if you have a laptop.

Since you mention placing your computer on a blanket suggests to me that you probably have a laptop and air flow is from the bottom of the case. Make sure that you have room for good airflow. I also notice that you do SETI@Home which means that your CPU is running at 100%. Heat is a problem with stock Intel heat sinks when you run 100% of CPU time 24/7; they tend to run just a little bit too warm. You might want to consider a cooling device for laptops such as this one: »microcenter.com/product/393032/N···SB_Ports or something like it.
--
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ~ Nikola Tesla


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to koam

Nothing in those screenshots indicates any overheating. Temperatures in the 60s C is relatively cool for a laptop. I've pushed many up towards 90 C with no issues.
--
KI6RIT



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback


Not yet, but it at that temp and sitting in a blanket it would suggest reviewing the habits of where the laptop sits to help diagnostics - just to eliminate over heating.

koam
The error for kernel-power rebooting only tells you it did it and really doesn't give any insight, maybe an event log prior to shut down will show something, but generally if there is a hardware/bios level issue you may not see a log in Windows when the system shuts down. Worth a look at events prior to shut down though all the same.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



koam
Pink Pecker
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·Shoreham Telephone

Thanks. I have been trying to find the right "view" on Event Viewer...i'm no expert.

Yesterday when I was searching through Event Viewer, I located an Event 37 Microsoft-Windows-Kernel-Processor-Power, which may have been prior to the shutdown. Googling that I found that it could be a heat thing where firmware shuts down a processor (not sure).

Today, I can't find the same error in same time sequence, but that may be due to my inability to correctly use Event Viewer (there are a lot of options to select on the left side.) Any suggestions?

Also, today I dusted out the fan vents with canned air.
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YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
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koam
Pink Pecker
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join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
Reviews:
·Shoreham Telephone
reply to Scilicet

Thanks. I don't have SETI@Home.

I think the fan is working correctly. It runs normally and sometimes kicks into a higher speed on its own.

As far as drivers, I have repeatedly checked with Dell's tools, which confirm that all the drivers are up to date.

I wonder if there's a tool that will log temps prior to shutdown. (I've only encountered 2 unexpected shutdowns. Though the Event log says more of the same errors have occurred as documented above.)
--
YOU can help reduce poverty, sustainably.
»www.kiva.org/lender/kenandart



norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback
reply to koam

said by koam:

Thanks. I have been trying to find the right "view" on Event Viewer...i'm no expert.

When you open the Event Viewer, expand Windows Logs and you will see Application, Security, Setup, System and Forward
ed Events
. You need to concentrate on System, but Application may or may not show events at the time that may help.

said by koam:

Also, today I dusted out the fan vents with canned air.

That would definitely help.

said by koam:

I wonder if there's a tool that will log temps prior to shutdown.

There are many tools out there that monitor temps. Core Temp, Real Temp, SpeedFan, to name a few. CPUID which you have already. Just leave it open and keep an eye on temps while working.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke


n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to norwegian

Fair enough .
--
KI6RIT