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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

[Serious] Rural Poverty

For a real view of rural poverty in Ontario, this video from TVO's "The Agenda" is worth watching.

»ww3.tvo.org/video/185842/grey-br···ide-city

And no, I'm not in it.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

I interacted with some communities over a year ago, for different reasons, and interacted with many people in such rural areas myself. The upside of staying in rural Ontario is the ridiculously low cost of homes, property and property taxes while the most serious downside is there are no opportunities (and expensive heating in some areas). It was a bleak feeling driving through these areas wondering, "why do people continue to live here?"

The worst is when a large number of people rely on a single manufacturing plant and that plant goes under or pulls out of the area, so there's a town that's grown dependant on that plant, can't survive without it, yet nobody leaves.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..

I think it is very hard for some to leave the towns they grew up in. Lots of memories, not wanting to head to a large city. Not wanting to take on much higher rent/mortgage.

Used to be that these communities could depend on the farmers to purchase a lot of their goods...

Things have changed.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

The worst is when a large number of people rely on a single manufacturing plant and that plant goes under or pulls out of the area, so there's a town that's grown dependant on that plant, can't survive without it, yet nobody leaves.

You can't leave when you no longer have a source of income and the only thing that made anybody want to go to your community just closed.

A house isn't worth anything if there isn't someone willing to buy it.


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

I think it is very hard for some to leave the towns they grew up in.

This is very true. A friend of mine left town, but "never left". While going to university in Kingston with us, she never had a boyfriend at school, always at home (not the same one either, she would get new ones). She was home almost every weekend as well. She did eventually live in Toronto for a few years, still going home almost every weekend and had several boyfriends back home during the time, and moved back as soon as she could.

Myself, I do not want to live where I grew up. I also do not want to live in Toronto either, but I do.
--
The irony of common sense, it is not that common.
I cannot deny anything I did not say.
A kitten dies every time someone uses "then" and "than" incorrectly.
I mock people who give their children odd spelling of names.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by donoreo:

This is very true. A friend of mine left town, but "never left". While going to university in Kingston with us, she never had a boyfriend at school, always at home (not the same one either, she would get new ones). She was home almost every weekend as well. She did eventually live in Toronto for a few years, still going home almost every weekend and had several boyfriends back home during the time, and moved back as soon as she could.

Sounds like my wife. Went to school in Hamilton but didn't enjoy one moment of it and immediately returned to Fort Erie the day she was done. She even finds St. Catharines to be the "big city" which still makes me laugh.

Her two sisters, on the other hand, went to school in London and never returned to Fort Erie for any extended period of time. They both now live in Ottawa.


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

1 edit
reply to DKS

If you want rural poverty, try driving through the outskirts of WNY. Draw a triangle from Buffalo down to Salamanca out to North East and pick your poison.

edit: but not yuppievilleEllicottville

My new job is going to require extensive travel to all corners of the province (but nothing north of Sudbury for the time being). I'll probably end up back in Hamilton due to its central location and low housing prices.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

said by urbanriot:

The worst is when a large number of people rely on a single manufacturing plant and that plant goes under or pulls out of the area, so there's a town that's grown dependant on that plant, can't survive without it, yet nobody leaves.

You can't leave when you no longer have a source of income and the only thing that made anybody want to go to your community just closed.

A house isn't worth anything if there isn't someone willing to buy it.

True. So what should our society do?

Back in the day, these areas that could no longer sustain themselves became ghost towns and the people moved on.

From Wikipedia:
quote:
A ghost town is an abandoned village, town or city, usually one which contains substantial visible remains. A town often becomes a ghost town because the economic activity that supported it has failed, or...
People in our society are saying that we need to fund these areas and maintain their way of life... but for how long do we keep this up as this won't reactivate a dead area and these people are having children.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Last Parade

said by Last Parade:

My new job is going to require extensive travel to all corners of the province (but nothing north of Sudbury for the time being).

Oh, spare me the visit please.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Last Parade

said by Last Parade:

If you want rural poverty, try driving through the outskirts of WNY. Draw a triangle from Buffalo down to Salamanca out to North East and pick your poison.

edit: but not yuppievilleEllicottville

You think it's bad in Western New York? Try heading up to St. Lawrence County.

Either way, the situation is far worse in the US.


Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON

said by Gone:

said by Last Parade:

If you want rural poverty, try driving through the outskirts of WNY. Draw a triangle from Buffalo down to Salamanca out to North East and pick your poison.

edit: but not yuppievilleEllicottville

You think it's bad in Western New York? Try heading up to St. Lawrence County.

Either way, the situation is far worse in the US.

The stark difference on the two sides of the Ogdensburg/Johnstown bridge just blows my mind (I cross at least once a week to do shopping in Ogdensburg on my way home from work). I cross into NY State and feel like I'm in a 3rd world... the houses are all old and falling apart, the yards are full of junk, there's no "nice new neighbourhoods" with any type of new construction. It's just painful being over there... I go into Lowe's to buy some stuff for the house and I'm the only one in the store.

Back on this side - while Johnstown, Prescott, and Cardinal are not exactly the bastion of economic success seen in Ottawa or Kingston, they feel like being in Beverly Hills in comparison to the stuff in St Lawrence county, NY.. One of the things making that happen that I've noticed is that the entire 416/401 "intersection area" has become a bedroom community for Ottawa. You can still buy a really nice house in the area for $200k-$250k... the further up 416 you go the worse the prices get - by the time you get to Kemptville $350,000 is a nice house, North Gower $400,000 or so, and Manotick - well you're $500,000 and up.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Yes, you described it perfectly. Things start to get better once you're in Jefferson County and down past Watertown (though Pulaski is just... weird), but the entire run along Route 37 between I-81 and Ogdensburg is a whole other world the likes of which I have never seen outside of the urban blight in Buffalo or Rochester. I mean, I've seen plenty of occupied dilapidated homes in the Southern US, and I figured it possible because, well, it's warm down there. But to see those in Northern New York, where it's colder than even here in the winter... well, let's just put it this way - they aren't even that bad in the worst parts of Buffalo.

You know what Odgensburg's three largest employers are? A state prison, a different state prison less than a mile away, and a state mental hospital between the two. Wonderful stuff.


PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

The stark difference on the two sides of the Ogdensburg/Johnstown bridge just blows my mind.

Johnstown is part of the flow of traffic in Ontario, being right off the 401 etc. It's in the shipping lanes so to speak.

Ogdensburg is isolated in upstate New York, it is NOT near major roads, there is no big reason to be there except that NYS put jails and a mental hospital there....

US traffic heading north is going to go on Interstate 81 to the Thousand Islands Bridges....

highwire2007

join:2008-05-17
Nepean, ON
reply to Gone

It's not just how run-down and 3rd-world Ogdensburg looks. I go there fairly often, and I think the youngest person I've seen there is 55 years old. I suppose, with no opportunities, I image all the young people bail as soon as they can.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

I saw teenagers when I was driving through, piled into the back of a pickup truck no less. About as rural as it gets. I have to wonder where they'll be after they finish high school.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

Johnstown is part of the flow of traffic in Ontario, being right off the 401 etc. It's in the shipping lanes so to speak.

Even parts of Southern Ontario that are off the beaten path (e.g. Owen Sound) aren't the holes that Odgensburg is. Quite the opposite, in fact. Owen Sound is beautiful.

Northern New York is a beautiful place, it's a shame that cities like Odgensburg are such a hole.


Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

said by Hydraglass:

The stark difference on the two sides of the Ogdensburg/Johnstown bridge just blows my mind.

Johnstown is part of the flow of traffic in Ontario, being right off the 401 etc. It's in the shipping lanes so to speak.

Ogdensburg is isolated in upstate New York, it is NOT near major roads, there is no big reason to be there except that NYS put jails and a mental hospital there....

US traffic heading north is going to go on Interstate 81 to the Thousand Islands Bridges....

Yeah - I always attribute it to "That corner of upstate NY is about as miserable, cold, and far away from anything meaningful that there is for US residents" while on this side, it's right on our southern border - the middle of traffic and commerce from Toronto to Montreal, etc.. but, in any case, that area even makes the hometown of the US part of my family (Scranton) seem "not like the hole of the earth that Joe Biden makes it out to be".

Mind you, I'm not diminishing poverty in rural Ontario and Canada at large, it's there, all I need to do is drive around on some of the dirt roads up in the area near my cottage (Bancroft area) - and it doesn't take long to find old falling apart farms and farmhouses that barely look like they can hold the roof up, with nothing more for the residents to drive than an old '70s or 80's pickup truck that has the fenders held on with bungee cords and duct tape. The "great unseen" of cottage country.. I've at least tried to bring more of my service and product purchasing out there and take less with me from home - to try to bring a little more $ to the folks out there.

Tig

join:2006-06-29
Carrying Place, ON
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to DKS

There is hope. My boyhood stomping grounds were pretty repressed back in the day. Not much going on, little opportunity and lots of social problems.
Fast forward 30 years and now it's one vineyard after another. Although that's not going to happen everywhere.
The real equalizer is broadband. People like myself come (back) to the area and bring a good paying job with them.


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to DKS

I was trying to watch this, but seems like they don't archive it anymore for some reason. Anyhow, it's a great watch.

»theagenda.tvo.org/episode/130426···progress

Basically the government is selling out future generations for a short term financial profit/benifits for the private sector.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3

... "As car companies try to clean up their emissions, are they manufacturing the truth in the process?" ??


peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

Mind you, I'm not diminishing poverty in rural Ontario and Canada at large, it's there, all I need to do is drive around on some of the dirt roads up in the area near my cottage (Bancroft area) - and it doesn't take long to find old falling apart farms and farmhouses that barely look like they can hold the roof up, with nothing more for the residents to drive than an old '70s or 80's pickup truck that has the fenders held on with bungee cords and duct tape. The "great unseen" of cottage country..

Minden, Bancroft, or most of the ares north of Peterborough and Lindsay have areas of diminished value unless they are on the waterfront or in the actual towns.

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

Yeah - I always attribute it to "That corner of upstate NY is about as miserable, cold, and far away from anything meaningful that there is for US residents" while on this side, it's right on our southern border - the middle of traffic and commerce from Toronto to Montreal, etc.

That's it, unfortunately.

As Luke said about his homeworld:

if there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from

About 2/3 of the population of NY State is in NYC, Long Island, and Westchester. Cities such as Buffalo and a few others account for most of the rest.

Rural upstate outlying areas like Ogdensburg---sad to say they don't get attention from [anyone].


WhaleOilBee
What a long strange trip it's been

join:2011-08-02
Manotick, ON
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to peterboro

I lived between Madoc and Bancroft from mid 70's to mid 90's. I always felt like an outsider. Most of the locals were multi-generations there.

There were lots of hard working people living there who would do whatever they could to make a living... snowplowing, firewood, trash hauling, etc. Then there were the chronic welfare do-nothings who referred to their children as "meal tickets". So basically the same cross section of personalities you're likely to find in a city.



Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON
reply to peterboro

said by peterboro:

said by Last Parade:

My new job is going to require extensive travel to all corners of the province (but nothing north of Sudbury for the time being).

Oh, spare me the visit please.

One of the places I'll be visiting extensively is Peterborough and I can't wait to not run into you.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

said by Last Parade:

said by peterboro:

said by Last Parade:

My new job is going to require extensive travel to all corners of the province (but nothing north of Sudbury for the time being).

Oh, spare me the visit please.

One of the places I'll be visiting extensively is Peterborough and I can't wait to not run into you.

Is there anything in particular I should be on the lookout for to make sure I am not subjected to being in your miserable presence?


Last Parade

join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

said by peterboro:

Is there anything in particular I should be on the lookout for to make sure I am not subjected to being in your miserable presence?

Just leave the entire city to be safe.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Oh, you two!



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Warez_Zealot

said by Warez_Zealot:

I was trying to watch this, but seems like they don't archive it anymore for some reason.

It's here.

»ww3.tvo.org/video/185842/grey-br···ide-city
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


deadtowns

@bell.ca

my summer job takesme all over ontario from cornwall to dryden..oen town that is dead is one called st thomas..we did a weeks work in this place this year when the plants closed this town has gone tits up. it s sad to see