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UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY

2 edits
reply to elefante72

Re: It's coming

Two things:

Upload speeds are comparatively low because of the nature of the technology, not because TWC wants to hamstring the usage of cloud services.

And the "frog in gradually boiling water" analogy is invalid. A frog will jump out of the water when it gets too hot. A similar thing will likely happen if TWC moves too far down the path you've outlined; it will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives. Google Fiber is designed to chart a path for those alternatives to follow, making it more likely that they will spring up if TWC leaves an opening.

Right now, the big incumbents have largely avoided disruptive competition through inertia; even though their services are shitty in comparison to those of just about every other developed nation, they haven't actually gotten worse over time. But if they actively degrade their services (as TWC is trying to do) in the face of increasing bandwidth demand from even the least tech-savvy customers, they will create opportunities for disruptive companies to serve the markets TWC won't.



buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

Upload is limited by the tech, but not as much as the end user gets.

The tech (DOCSIS 3.0) limits upload to a bit over 50% of the download speed (per channel).

TW is no where close to that ratio on upload.



djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO

1 recommendation

reply to UnnDunn

said by UnnDunn:

A similar thing will likely happen if TWC moves too far down the path you've outlined; it will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives.

What alternatives? Cable is headed towards being a monopoly in a lot of areas as telcos give up on DSL. U-verse is capped and is already maxing out speed wise. Verizon didn't even deploy FiOS in the City of Los Angeles, let alone the rest of the country.

Google Fiber probably won't get deployed in my neighborhood in my lifetime even if they find it viable.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
reply to UnnDunn

said by UnnDunn:

It will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives.

That is the real problem. There are very few, and some times no, alternatives. If there were alternatives then this wouldn't be happening. Some people in order to change their ISP need to move.
--
“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” ¯ Robert A. Heinlein

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to UnnDunn

Yes and no. There's a technology limit of ~10Mbps per channel. However, there's more truth in simple laziness... the upstream rate had been the same 384K since the tech was introduced in 1995. Only *recently* did they up it to 1M across the board. (various markets' "turbo" has 512 and 768 up, but the basic rate was 384k for over 15 years.) Downstream has seen numerous bumps to "compete" with DSL -- read: on paper, exceed it's speed -- however in every case that boiled down to simply changing a number in a config file. (there's no evidence they've ever put any thought into the effects of increasing the speeds *before* actually doing it.)

Yes, there have been technology upgrades along the way. However they have never been voluntary. Most were vendor pushed -- EOL... we no longer make or support this old junk; buy the new stuff. And in a rare twist, D3 has been a market push -- at first to keep up appearances vs. FiOS, then to have an even product offering across all markets. (That upgrade was expensive... they had to stop shoveling the cash into their pockets for a few months. *whaaa*)


iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
reply to buzz_4_20

In my area TWC has one upload channel funning at 3.2 MHz width, which can transmit at most 15 Mbps (or 10 Mbps based on line noise). They have four downstreams, with a combined download capacity of 152 Mbps before IP overhead. This matches up with the 50/5 plan that I have.



TelecomEng

@rr.com
reply to cramer

said by cramer:

Yes and no. There's a technology limit of ~10Mbps per channel.

That's risen to rough ~30Mbps / channel with current DOCSIS 2.0 upstream modulation profiles. All but the oldest modems support this technology, but operators have to contend with people who refuse to upgrade and the issues of noise in the plant.


aciddrink

join:2000-08-26
reply to Kilroy

This is exactly true. In my city, there are only two ISPs. Insight (TWC), or a really crappy DSL provider.

In many areas of the city, the DSL provider has made exclusive contracts with newly built apartment complexes, where those complexes will not and can not run cable lines, thereby forcing residents onto the DSL provider for TV and internet.

This is done because the DSL provider is terrible and would be unable to retain customers if people were given a choice.


en103

join:2011-05-02
reply to djrobx

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.


cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to TelecomEng

Which is my point. As long as cable operators continue to live in the past (*cough*68 analog channels*cough* -- all of them broadcast in digital as well) and support well outdated hardware (DOCSIS 1.0), the limit is still 10M. Our brand new Arris D3 modem at the office... still uses a single TDMA D1 16QAM upstream channel.



skuv

@rr.com
reply to buzz_4_20

said by buzz_4_20:

Upload is limited by the tech, but not as much as the end user gets.

The tech (DOCSIS 3.0) limits upload to a bit over 50% of the download speed (per channel).

TW is no where close to that ratio on upload.

A QAM channel, which is what a downstream channel is, is about 38mbit.

Upstream channels are ~10mbit.

DOCSIS 3.0 bonds 8 downstreams and 8 upstreams. That is about ~310mbit down max and ~80mbit up max. A little more than 25%, not close to 50%.

No, the end user doesn't get 25% either, but they won't be getting 50% unless their downstream is limited while their upstream is raised.


djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO
reply to en103

said by en103:

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

It's available in parts, but not everywhere. For example, it's not available in Sunland/Tujunga which are also part of the City of Los Angeles.

--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.


TelecomEng

@rr.com
reply to skuv

said by skuv :

A QAM channel, which is what a downstream channel is, is about 38mbit.

Upstream channels are ~10mbit.

DOCSIS upstreams are 10Mbps only if you use the DOCSIS 1.x upstream modulation profiles. DOCSIS 2 upstream profiles enable ~30Mbps on a 6.4Mhz wide, 64QAM upstream.

»www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk86/tk···27.shtml

rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to TelecomEng

Isn't most of the noise due to the frequency of the upstream channels being limited to the very low end of the spectrum where, among many other things, every internal combustion engine spark plug can cause interference? I thought that too had solutions with newer specifications.



blohner

join:2002-06-26
Cortlandt Manor, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Optimum Online
reply to cramer

Docsis 3 allows for 8x4 bonding with current modems and can easily provide 100+/15+ mbit/s speeds... As comparison to DSL: if you look to VDSL and ADSL2+ Annex J in Europe you see 2+ Mbit/ upload even on ADLS2+... I put 50% of the blame on the US consumer for not speaking up - or manning up to start another provider... (note: I am in the US and currently on CV Boost+ with 50/8 (in practice 60/8) cable service.. I had FIOS with 150/65 before but it was not worth $100 for me...
As to what others need to pay for service: It's a correlation of suburbaness vs. service... i.e. if I would move to Montana I would save >20,000 USD a year in property tax... any increase along the line of maybe 2,000 USD total ISP fees would still be jump change...
--
I am addicted to speed --- Boost + speed that is ---


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to cramer

said by cramer:

the upstream rate had been the same 384K since the tech was introduced in 1995. Only *recently* did they up it to 1M across the board. (various markets' "turbo" has 512 and 768 up, but the basic rate was 384k for over 15 years.) Downstream has seen numerous bumps to "compete" with DSL -- read: on paper, exceed it's speed -- however in every case that boiled down to simply changing a number in a config file. (there's no evidence they've ever put any thought into the effects of increasing the speeds *before* actually doing it.)

You are wrong. Downstream seldom gets increased. Hawaii will not upgrade Standard tier to 15mbps down until END OF FIRST QUARTER 2013 at the EARLIEST...it wlll probably be much later. They have to move analog TV channels to digital (over much bitching from customers) to free up the bandwidth.

Upstream is a different story. Oceanic TWC has given Road Runner customers 1mbps up for OVER 5 YEARS NOW on STANDARD TIER. Standard tier was 5mpbs down when we got 1mbps up. We got 1mbps up at that time for ONE REASON ONLY: the competition. Hawaiian Telcom had given their users 1mbps up and up to 11mbps down (of course most could not get the latter). They became the fastest ISP in Hawaii and were crowing about it. Oceanic acted fast and matched their 1 mbps up. Unfortunately, dsl is no competition for download speeds so OceanicTWC can take however much time as they wish to upgrade Standard to 15mbps down and to heck with the statement from TWC CEO that ALL divisions would have Standard at 15mbps by end of December. That will happen here only if forced by corporate which, given the last time corporate forced download speed upgrade on Oceanic (from 3mbps to 5mbps) caused the network to collapse for almost a week (including business users), I don't think they will force it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9

Around here (RDU), the service was introduced at 3/384. Then it went through various "paper" upgrades to 5, 6, 7, 8, and then 10 down. The upstream rate remained 384 all the way to 10 down, when it finally saw an increase to 1M. Now they're moving to 15 down and still 1 up. At this rate, we'll have 100 down and still be 1 up -- actually, you'd have to go to D3 for that which is 50/5 and 30/5 right now, at much higher prices.

Again, around here, the best upstream rate you could hope to get is 512k via ADSL. Not surprisingly, when Uverse became available with it's 1 and 1.5 up, TWC suddenly jumped to 1M up, too. For a long time, they sold downstream rates that were self-throttled by the upstream rate; north of 6M down, the ACKs from multiple TCP connections can saturate a 384k upstream... a single connection can get the full rate, but add more (and most browsers will open up to 4 at a time fetching content for a single page) and it starts to fall apart.



antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
United State
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to en103

said by en103:

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

It's available in my L.A. cities, but not in my neighborhood. See thre problem? Just because they are in the cities does not mean in the whole area!