| reply to telco_mtl
Re: The renovation continues ... today new 400 amp service! said by telco_mtl:up here 400 amps is pretty common. We have cities that zone for "intergeneration" houses which are basically a 3-4 bedroom house with a bungalow hanging off the side. Since they dont want people buying these and using the bungalow as an income suite they wont let them be separately metered or heated. Since in quebec we are majoritarly heated with electricity a house this big on a single service needs a big entrance. One house i visited with a collegue had an electric forced air furnace heating a 4 bedroom house and a 3 bedroom bungalow attached, the furnace alone called for 150 amps. The bungalow had a 100 amp panel and the 4 bedroom a 200 amp panel. I have a feeling when it gets cold in the winter and that furnace fires up you will get a breeze from the disk on the meter!
the disk would prob spin fast enough to be used as a table saw |
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 DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
 ·Verizon FiOS
1 edit | reply to telco_mtl
I don't see how not allowing people to separate meters stops them from generating income on a bungalow. I'd just include electric in the month fee and rent it out anyways. That or I'd install a TED on the circuits that go to that bungalow and charge them for their usage each month.
»www.theenergydetective.com/
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IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes! |
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 ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | reply to cdru
said by cdru:said by pandora:My home renovation continues, today was 400 amp underground service install day. You may have two 200 amp panels, but your service wire doesn't appear rated for 400 amps. How did you determine that? |
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 Killa200Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN
 ·Charter
| said by ropeguru:said by cdru:said by pandora:My home renovation continues, today was 400 amp underground service install day. You may have two 200 amp panels, but your service wire doesn't appear rated for 400 amps. How did you determine that? I'm assuming by the 350kcmil marking on the underground feeder wires from the utility. 350kcmil aluminum is rated for 250amp @ the 75c rating, which is more than likely what those terminations are rated for.
However, I've not seen service installed for rated around here in a long time. That is a "400amp service", which is really a 320 split phase setup, and that seems like the right amount of underfeed as compared to your typical service feed on 200amp, which the utility around here at least usually runs 2/0 alum. |
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ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | said by Killa200:I'm assuming by the 350kcmil marking on the underground feeder wires from the utility. 250kcmil aluminum is rated for 250amp @ the 75c rating, which is more than likely what those terminations are rated for.
But he was not referencing the terminations. He stated that the service wire was not rated for 400 AMPS. Additionally, would you ever expect one leg of a residential single phase to have to supply a full 400 AMPS? Wouldn't the total be more balanced across both? |
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Killa200Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN Reviews:
·Charter
| Fixed a typo above and added my thoughts. While he wasn't referring to the terminations, you have to in order to get the correct handling capacity of the feeder run. The wire alone isn't what determines what it can carry, but also what it terminates into.
If you want to focus in the wire alone and in all technicalities, it as well isn't rated for 400 amps, even at 90C.
Do i ever expect 400amps @ 240v worth of load on his service regularly? I have no idea, but it isn't plausible, as if a load calculation pushed him to that point they would have oversized again.
IN technical terms is the service setup as rated? No. But the utility also isn't bound by the NEC, but their own set of guidelines on how to install things. |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | reply to ropeguru
Looks like they used the same type of wire for the overhead (which can be 400A for neutral support overhead). |
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 mattmagPremium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
kudos:3 | reply to pandora
Where's nunya  when ya need him???
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| reply to pandora
Two transfer switches, for two generators? |
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 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to Killa200
I was just going by the wire being stamped 350 kcmil, which by NEC table 310.15(B)(7) seems to indicate a max of 300 amps. I was under the impression that the service wires had to be at least as big as what the combined main disconnects protected to, but maybe not.
said by Killa200:But the utility also isn't bound by the NEC, but their own set of guidelines on how to install things. Aren't service entrance cables covered under NEC, but not transmission lines? |
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| reply to Draiman
said by Draiman:I don't see how not allowing people to separate meters stops them from generating income on a bungalow. I'd just include electric in the month fee and rent it out anyways. That or I'd install a TED on the circuits that go to that bungalow and charge them for their usage each month.
»www.theenergydetective.com/
its a deterant, the design of the houses in general is laid out as to complicate division, the 2 units are joined by a door in the basement, the door cannot have any locking device etc. |
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Killa200Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN Reviews:
·Charter
| reply to cdru
said by cdru:Aren't service entrance cables covered under NEC, but not transmission lines?
Hmmm, that may be true. I'm going to remit on an answer from that and instead hope whiz or nunya chimes in. |
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ncbillPremium
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC Reviews:
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to pandora
So why didn't you pick a ground source heat pump?
IIRC, those are more efficient for heating than air-source, plus can be configured to provide hot water.
said by pandora:My home is now entirely heated by electricity (a Geospring for hot water) and by heat pumps (for hot or cool air). Auxiliary heat requires 20KW per air handler (we have 2 air handlers). The electric heater can draw 4,400 watts, if two are installed (which may happen) I'll need 8,800 watts.
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| reply to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:said by Draiman:I don't see how not allowing people to separate meters stops them from generating income on a bungalow. I'd just include electric in the month fee and rent it out anyways. That or I'd install a TED on the circuits that go to that bungalow and charge them for their usage each month.
»www.theenergydetective.com/
its a deterant, the design of the houses in general is laid out as to complicate division, the 2 units are joined by a door in the basement, the door cannot have any locking device etc. In Canada they can dictate how you control a door in your own house? That's insane!
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IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes! |
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| said by Draiman:said by telco_mtl:said by Draiman:I don't see how not allowing people to separate meters stops them from generating income on a bungalow. I'd just include electric in the month fee and rent it out anyways. That or I'd install a TED on the circuits that go to that bungalow and charge them for their usage each month.
»www.theenergydetective.com/
its a deterant, the design of the houses in general is laid out as to complicate division, the 2 units are joined by a door in the basement, the door cannot have any locking device etc. In Canada they can dictate how you control a door in your own house? That's insane! municipal zoning rule since they are in areas zoned "bi generation" |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to ncbill
said by ncbill:So why didn't you pick a ground source heat pump?
IIRC, those are more efficient for heating than air-source, They are. But for a 5000 square foot house the necessary loop may have been prohibitively expensive in a heating-dominated climate like CT. And you'd still likely want backup heat of some sorts.
plus can be configured to provide hot water. |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
·Charter
 ·surpasshosting
 ·voip.ms
| reply to pandora
There's nothing to get hyped up about.
The OP has what everybody incorrectly refers to as a 400A service. It looks fine. They did a nice job (I wouldn't have used SEU on a nice new install like that).
It's really a 320A service, and TBQFH he'll never use it. That transformer on the pole looks to be a 50 KVA, or at the most a 75 KVA. Add to that it is shared with other homes. There *really* isn't 320A even available to the OP.
The utility appears to have provided the service drop. The utility is subject to the NESC, not the NEC. They can pretty much put whatever they feel like in there. Remember, utility work is usually done under engineering supervision. They know that drop will never *really* even see 275A. I doubt it ever sees 200A.
Service size ≠ what's actually available from the utility.
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If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
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pandoraPremium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Google Voice
·Comcast
·ooma
·Future Nine Corp..
| reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:Two transfer switches, for two generators?
Two 200 amp transfer switches for 1 Generac 20 KW.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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pandoraPremium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Google Voice
·Comcast
·ooma
·Future Nine Corp..
| reply to ncbill
said by ncbill:So why didn't you pick a ground source heat pump?
IIRC, those are more efficient for heating than air-source, plus can be configured to provide hot water.
It saves me $60,000 for the time being, later a ground heat pump solution can be installed. I tried, but the price difference was too great.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to pandora
400A service? Insane. What are you running? A crematorium? It would be unaffordable in Ontario. Most homes have 200 amp service max, even with electric heat. And electric heat is dropping out of favour here.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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