| reply to pandora
Re: The renovation continues ... today new 400 amp service! said by pandora:said by ncbill:So why didn't you pick a ground source heat pump?
IIRC, those are more efficient for heating than air-source, plus can be configured to provide hot water.
It saves me $60,000 for the time being, later a ground heat pump solution can be installed. I tried, but the price difference was too great. You get back 30% of that on your taxes, which is about 18 grand. I would have done geothermal if I had the opportunity. |
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kherrPremium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL Reviews:
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| reply to DKS
Back when I lived at Lake of the Ozarks we set a bunch of 600A services at houses. They were all electric homes. One house figured to need an 800A, but when the customer found out the cost between us and the utility he went back to the HVAC people to have them to take off some of the elements from the furnaces. It ended up with 4 fiull 40 panels with each 2/3 full.
We worked on some monster homes, but I never really asked anyone about the sq.ft.age. These were all "vacation" homes that some years nobody would even come down to ... must be nice. |
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 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to pandora
said by pandora:Two 200 amp transfer switches for 1 Generac 20 KW. <scratches head>That's a little over 80 amps. Wouldn't one ATS have been enough?
It's your money I guess... |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
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| It's because of the split service. Have you seen the price of the $400A transfer switch?
It probably would have been better to have two panels: essential circuits and non-essential circuits. Especially since they are right next to each other. Then he would have only needed one ATS.
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If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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| reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:You get back 30% of that on your taxes, which is about 18 grand. I would have done geothermal if I had the opportunity.
When I ran the numbers, my total cost would be $60,000.
Each family has it's own unique situation.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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| reply to nunya
said by nunya:It's because of the split service. Have you seen the price of the $400A transfer switch?
It probably would have been better to have two panels: essential circuits and non-essential circuits. Especially since they are right next to each other. Then he would have only needed one ATS.
The concrete pad and propane feed from the tank can support up to a 30-35 KW unit. If in the future, 20 KW is insufficient, swapping out a 20 for a 30 or 35 is a heck of a lot easier than rewiring, pouring new concrete and running new propane lines.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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 PhoenixDown-- Wants FIOSPremium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1 | reply to pandora
Pandora -- what are your electric rates? |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to nunya
said by nunya:It's because of the split service. Have you seen the price of the $400A transfer switch? No I didn't know the price of a 400 amp compared to two 200 amp. A real quick check I found a Generac 200 amp for $600 and Generac 400 amp for $1829. Slightly more than 3x the price, but you save some of the costs by not having twice the work to do. Plus a simpler setup. After factoring in everything, and considering this doesn't seem to be a super low end job, I just would have thought a single ATS would have been the way to go. |
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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| reply to PhoenixDown
said by PhoenixDown:Pandora -- what are your electric rates?
The bill is complex, some costs are fixed, transmission is separate from generation. However, it's about 17 cents per KWh.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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1 edit | reply to nunya
said by nunya:There's nothing to get hyped up about.
The OP has what everybody incorrectly refers to as a 400A service. It looks fine. They did a nice job (I wouldn't have used SEU on a nice new install like that).
It's really a 320A service, and TBQFH he'll never use it. That transformer on the pole looks to be a 50 KVA, or at the most a 75 KVA. Add to that it is shared with other homes. There *really* isn't 320A even available to the OP.
The utility appears to have provided the service drop. The utility is subject to the NESC, not the NEC. They can pretty much put whatever they feel like in there. Remember, utility work is usually done under engineering supervision. They know that drop will never *really* even see 275A. I doubt it ever sees 200A.
Service size ≠ what's actually available from the utility.
I spoke with the utility today, their belief is the system as installed can maintain 320 amp continuous service. Loads of up to 400 amps may be sustained for long periods (according to the regional installation supervisor). He indicated if at any time, there was a failure to supply 400 amp by the cable or transformer, excluding emergency periods where there are blackouts or brownouts, the electric company is required by law to remediate the service to provide the required load (up to 400 amps sustained).
He indicated the design for all residential 400 amp service assumes no more than 320 amps drawn continuously (he said this is required by state regulation as the minimum the utility must provide).
The wire is 350 kcmil Alcan XLPE 90C, whatever that means. The transformer is 75 KW and feeds 6 homes. When built, all homes in the neighborhood had 75 or 100 amp service. Most now have 200 amp. Street voltage is 8,000 volts to the "main feed" (sometimes he used the word primary apparently interchangeably). Output read with no load to our meter was 246 volts according to the supervisor. I am not at all an expert on these things. He indicated the load was buried approximately 3' underground, with a tracer wire. My electrician had a spare conduit built, in the event there is ever a failure (as the conduit will be paved over by a long driveway).
I don't know if this helps the discussion any, but it occurred to me to ask the people who installed the stuff.
He indicated the street was not scheduled for any upgrade in the near or intermediate future, but that some poles may be replaced, and mine was on the list for an intermediate future replacement. So the pole in the pictures may be a slight concern to the company.
The supervisor indicated while the shunt is installed, they must assume the average use of all homes using the same transformer. He indicated this would save me money, as my use is more than 50% above average.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | The transformer is 75 KW and feeds 6 homes. When built, all homes in the neighborhood had 75 or 100 amp service. Most now have 200 amp.
Something about this setup doesn't make sense |
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 DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
 ·Verizon FiOS
| reply to pandora
said by pandora:said by PhoenixDown:Pandora -- what are your electric rates?
The bill is complex, some costs are fixed, transmission is separate from generation. However, it's about 17 cents per KWh. It's nice to see the Northeast is consistent on one thing. It's about 17 cents per Kwh here in the Boston area as well.
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pandoraPremium
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Outland
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| reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:If all the other 5 crank up their usage to 200 amp that's 1000 amp which is 600 above what you say the POCO says they can supply.
Something about this setup doesn't make sense
How utilities manage and calculate electric loads is beyond my understanding (at this time). It's interesting, but the entire project has been interesting, I've learned a lot.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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| reply to Draiman
said by Draiman:said by pandora:said by PhoenixDown:Pandora -- what are your electric rates?
The bill is complex, some costs are fixed, transmission is separate from generation. However, it's about 17 cents per KWh. It's nice to see the Northeast is consistent on one thing. It's about 17 cents per Kwh here in the Boston area as well. wow, we are spoiled in quebec, 17 cents is our peak rate when you are on a dual rate meter! |
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| reply to Draiman
said by Draiman:said by pandora:said by PhoenixDown:Pandora -- what are your electric rates?
The bill is complex, some costs are fixed, transmission is separate from generation. However, it's about 17 cents per KWh. It's nice to see the Northeast is consistent on one thing. It's about 17 cents per Kwh here in the Boston area as well. I pay $0.1215588/kwh all taxes included in my part of New Jersey. This is because we're on a co-op. On PSE&G when I lived elsewhere in NJ it was about 17 cents per kWh.
Our ETS rate (offpeak, for ETS heating only) is about half the regular rate.
Our co-op opted out of the electric utility competition so we pay just one charge for generation and transmission. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:The transformer is 75 KW and feeds 6 homes. When built, all homes in the neighborhood had 75 or 100 amp service. Most now have 200 amp. If all the other 5 crank up their usage to 200 amp that's 1000 amp which is 600 above what you say the POCO says they can supply. Something about this setup doesn't make sense Even 400 amps doesn't fit a 75 kVA transformer. 240 volts * 400 amps = 96 kVA. It would be 125% overloaded at 400 amps alone, not to mention the other 5 homes. And if Pandora's home is needing all 400, it's likely the other homes are also needing a considerable amount of power. That is, unless Pandora is running the grow lights operation supplying the other 5 homes. 
I think that guaranteed 400 amps of continuous service is shared among all the users of the transformers, meaning Pandora's house is likely never to have 400 amps available just to him. |
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pandoraPremium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
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| reply to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:wow, we are spoiled in quebec, 17 cents is our peak rate when you are on a dual rate meter!
Just one rate. Regardless of time of day.
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman" |
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| us in quebec its around 5 cents for the normal user and dual energy users like myself its abit over 4 cents normally and 17 cents during peak (colder than -15 celcius) |
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DraimanLet me see those devil horns in the sky
join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC Reviews:
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| reply to pandora
It breaks down to about 8.5 cents a Kwh for delivery and another 8.5 cents per Kwh for supplier for a total cost of 17 cents per Kwh fixed no matter what here. Then they have a surcharge they add if you exceed 1,000 Kwh a month. That raises the rate to about 20 cents per Kwh for all Kwh's over 1,000. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to pandora
said by pandora:The wire is 350 kcmil Alcan XLPE 90C, whatever that means. 350 kcmil means that the wire has a cross sectional area of 350,000 circular mils. A circular mil is an area of a circle 1 mil in diameter. It's an easy way to measure large wires without having to worry about pi. kcmil can also be abbreviated as MCM (M = thousand CM = circular mil) and is usually found for wire gauges larger than 4/0 or 0000 and AWG is used for smaller wires. Take the square root of the kcmils to get the diameter in mils (thousandths of an inch). So √350000 = 591.6 mils = approximately .592 inches in diameter.
Alcan is the manufacture of the wire.
XLPE means Cross-linked polyethelyene plastic insulation. If you're having plumbing done, you may be using the same type of plastic there where it's known as PEX.
90C is the temperature rating on the wire. This go towards how much current a given wire or cable is allowed to carry safely. Common values are 60C, 75C, and 90C. The lower the number, the less current. It also comes into play when you need to derate a cable because of where it's located or how it is ran. |
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