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John Galt
Forward, March
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join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
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reply to pandora

Re: The renovation continues ... today new 400 amp service!

$0.0690 per kW here in Oregon for the first 12,000 kWh, then it drops to $0.0460 for all kWh past that.



nunya
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reply to pandora

That just confirms what I said. A single phase 75 KW transformer can supply *roughly* 320A @ 100% load.
The utility knows that you'll never draw close to that. The chances of everybody turning everything on at the same time and blowing the transformer or the fuse are slim. If it does happen, they deal with it then.
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leibold
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reply to cdru

said by cdru:

Even 400 amps doesn't fit a 75 kVA transformer. 240 volts * 400 amps = 96 kVA. It would be 125% overloaded at 400 amps alone, not to mention the other 5 homes.

Technically correct, but not relevant. The 75 kVA rating is the load limit in order to maintain the manufacturer specified service life of the transformer.
Utility companies are well aware that they can far exceed that rating at the expense of a shorter lifespan for the transformer. Given how many pole mounted transformers around here show clear signs of overheating (and how often some of them pop) it appears that our utility company prefers the more frequent replacement to proper sizing of the transformers.
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tschmidt
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said by leibold:

Utility companies are well aware that they can far exceed that rating at the expense of a shorter lifespan for the transformer.

Yup - I can attest to that from first hand experience.

When we built our house installed a 200A service plus 30A separately metered service for hot water. Except for kitchen stove appliances are electric. Even space heating is electric to backup wood stove.

We are 600 feet off the road so have our own pole pig. Power company installed a 10 KW transformer. Being the good engineer that I am felt obligated to point out that 200A x 240V is 48 KW. The supervisor smiled knowingly and said that was true but transformer has tremendous overload capacity. If we were able to overload it they would be happy to replace it.

Well that was 30+ years, a direct lightning strike, and two kids ago and the transformer is still going strong. It will probably still be there after I'm in the ground.

/tom

pandora
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reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

It breaks down to about 8.5 cents a Kwh for delivery and another 8.5 cents per Kwh for supplier for a total cost of 17 cents per Kwh fixed no matter what here. Then they have a surcharge they add if you exceed 1,000 Kwh a month. That raises the rate to about 20 cents per Kwh for all Kwh's over 1,000.

I'd be in trouble with a 1,000 Kwh limit. Fortunately that doesn't exist in Connecticut (yet).
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

pandora
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reply to pandora

Tomorrow the first of 2 new 4 ton 18 SEER Goodman heat pumps is going to go live.

Would anyone mind if I snapped some shots and started a new thread about that?
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"



Draiman
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by Draiman:

It breaks down to about 8.5 cents a Kwh for delivery and another 8.5 cents per Kwh for supplier for a total cost of 17 cents per Kwh fixed no matter what here. Then they have a surcharge they add if you exceed 1,000 Kwh a month. That raises the rate to about 20 cents per Kwh for all Kwh's over 1,000.

I'd be in trouble with a 1,000 Kwh limit. Fortunately that doesn't exist in Connecticut (yet).

It's not a limit just an escalator to make people pay more for what they deem 'excessive' usage. I'm sure if Massachusetts can get away with it the other states won't be far behind.
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hitachi369
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Grand Rapids, MI
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MI, or at least my energy provider, has a bump at 600 Kwh.


pandora
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reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

It's not a limit just an escalator to make people pay more for what they deem 'excessive' usage. I'm sure if Massachusetts can get away with it the other states won't be far behind.

My electric bill runs anywhere from 2,500 to 3,000 Kwh per month, depending on season and activity in the home. That's before we increase the size of our home.

Shouldn't the limit vary by home size and number of people residing in it?
--
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Draiman
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said by pandora:

said by Draiman:

It's not a limit just an escalator to make people pay more for what they deem 'excessive' usage. I'm sure if Massachusetts can get away with it the other states won't be far behind.

My electric bill runs anywhere from 2,500 to 3,000 Kwh per month, depending on season and activity in the home. That's before we increase the size of our home.

Shouldn't the limit vary by home size and number of people residing in it?

I think it should be as well. Why should a 2 bedroom condo and a 4 bedroom house be held to the same standard after all. I guess they figure if you can use more then 1,000 Kwh then you can afford the extra 3 cents a Kwh too.
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leibold
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

Shouldn't the limit vary by home size and number of people residing in it?

It kind of does here. The utility sets a baseline amount that is based in part on the type of home, whether gas or electricity is used for hot water and heating as well as the climate zone it is located in (determining the number of heating or cooling days). That calculated baseline amount is less (50-60% in summer, 60-70% in winter) then what a typical home would consume as "an incentive to conserve energy" meaning that nearly everybody pays more then tier 1 rates (up to 100% of baseline). In total there are 5 tiers with pricing going up significantly after tier 2 (101% to 130% of baseline).
From personal experience it is no problem at all to get into tier 5 (over 300% of baseline).

Shouldn't it get cheaper if you buy in bulk ?
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pandora
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said by leibold:

Shouldn't it get cheaper if you buy in bulk ?

I defer to my current signature.
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Anonymous_
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reply to pandora

growing pot? That would be only reason to need 400 amp service


pandora
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1 edit
reply to nunya

Here are some generator and propane tank pictures (with associated propane plumbing). The generator is not yet wired, but the propane is connected to it. It will be live within 2 weeks if all goes well. Without a battery it can't start (battery won't be installed until we are ready to go live with the unit).

My propane tank description seems redacted (after the post went up) the tank is 41" in circumference, 16' long and sits on a concrete pad 5' wide by 18' long.

The generator pad is oversized, and has underground cable to fit up to a 35 KW generator. We asked the propane folks to size the pipe to the generator to handle up to a 35 KW generator. The electric cable will also be sized for up to 35 KW when installed.
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"


pandora
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reply to Anonymous_

said by Anonymous_:

growing pot? That would be only reason to need 400 amp service

No, sorry, no cannabis here. Though it does demonstrate a certain mindset. The only reason you can imagine for 400 amp service is to grow pot??
--
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman"

TheMG
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reply to pandora

Strange as it may seem, it's cheaper for the utility to deal with the occasional overloaded transformer (and replace the failed transformers with a larger one), than to preemptively upgrade transformers "just in case" the load might be too much.

The average power consumption of most homes is well below their service capacity.

Also it is unlikely that all the homes will have peak consumption occurring at the same exact moment. Heating, A/C, and HWH will cycle at different times and people will be running their electric ranges and clothes dryers at slightly different times than other people.


Speedy Petey

join:2008-01-19
reply to pandora

400A service, 320A continuous.
The service entrance conductors can be sized according to 320A.



Jack_in_VA
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reply to tschmidt

said by tschmidt:

said by leibold:

Utility companies are well aware that they can far exceed that rating at the expense of a shorter lifespan for the transformer.

Yup - I can attest to that from first hand experience.

When we built our house installed a 200A service plus 30A separately metered service for hot water. Except for kitchen stove appliances are electric. Even space heating is electric to backup wood stove.

We are 600 feet off the road so have our own pole pig. Power company installed a 10 KW transformer. Being the good engineer that I am felt obligated to point out that 200A x 240V is 48 KW. The supervisor smiled knowingly and said that was true but transformer has tremendous overload capacity. If we were able to overload it they would be happy to replace it.

Well that was 30+ years, a direct lightning strike, and two kids ago and the transformer is still going strong. It will probably still be there after I'm in the ground.

/tom

That's interesting since my transformer that feeds 4 homes started out at 15 kva, changed to 25 kva, then 50 kva and now 75 kva all without any problems I'm aware of. I'm sure my 300 amp upgrade didn't trigger it since the original drop wire from when the house was 60 amp was installed.


Anonymous_
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

said by Anonymous_:

growing pot? That would be only reason to need 400 amp service

No, sorry, no cannabis here. Though it does demonstrate a certain mindset. The only reason you can imagine for 400 amp service is to grow pot??

Unless your running some industrial lighting equipment 400amp service is not need.

Most houses here that are 3k sq ft only use 150amp or 200amp service


mattmag
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NW Illinois
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reply to tschmidt

said by tschmidt:

Being the good engineer that I am felt obligated to point out that 200A x 240V is 48 KW. The supervisor smiled knowingly and said that was true but transformer has tremendous overload capacity.

I'm trying to recall exactly what the POCO guy said about the installation here. We're on a 15kW transformer by ourselves. Service for house is 200A. Seems he told me they figure it a bit differently than you did as 15kW / 120V = 125A, and that is *per leg*, so we would essentially have excess capacity with the current configuration. This of course assumes perfect load balancing.

Now, I may be wrong on that, its been awhile since that conversation came up. Just throwing it out for those who know more than me to cuss and discuss...

kherr
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reply to leibold

said by leibold:

Shouldn't it get cheaper if you buy in bulk ?

The more you use, the bigger their capacity has to be. Whether they buy more off the grid or build larger generating capacity.

There was an article here quite some time ago where the NSA was building a data center (spy center) in CO where they will us $45M a year just for electric. I forgot how many of 100,000s of square feet it is going to be. Needless to say, they will have there own sub station ....


pike
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Washington, DC
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reply to pandora

said by pandora:

Tomorrow the first of 2 new 4 ton 18 SEER Goodman heat pumps is going to go live.

Would anyone mind if I snapped some shots and started a new thread about that?

No sir, I wouldn't mind at all. Looking forward to reading all the nitpicks from the armchair tradesmen.

kilovolt

join:2011-01-11
San Francisco, CA
reply to pandora

I think the scarier part is what pandora's monthly electric bill looks like. Ouch.

I guess we all choose what we want to spend our money on...I prefer to spend it on skiing in Colorado or snorkeling in Hawaii


pandora
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said by kilovolt:

I think the scarier part is what pandora's monthly electric bill looks like. Ouch.

I guess we all choose what we want to spend our money on...I prefer to spend it on skiing in Colorado or snorkeling in Hawaii

THAT is an excellent point. We do not take expensive vacations, most of our time and cash is invested in home, including entertainment.

Some prefer to travel, after the TSA, and as I grew older, home became my preferred vacation spot. I'm happier here than in any hotel. Got an 8 person hot tub, 3.5 bathrooms, 3 of them with Jacuzzi's. Lots of high tech toys to play with, and a number of pets.

I'm happiest at home with my family, they so far seem to feel similarly.
--
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DKS
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reply to tschmidt

said by tschmidt:

Well that was 30+ years, a direct lightning strike, and two kids ago and the transformer is still going strong. It will probably still be there after I'm in the ground.

And full of PCB's...
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DKS
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reply to kilovolt

said by kilovolt:

I think the scarier part is what pandora's monthly electric bill looks like. Ouch.

Indeed. Our hydro rates are so complex I can't even give a comparison. We have three segment Time of Use, delivery charges, debt retirement charges, temperature compensation, discounts and more. And Smart Meters.
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tschmidt
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1 edit
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

[And full of PCB's...

Unlikely, but not impossible.

The transformer was installed in 1980 when we first moved onto the property. This was around the time of the big PCB scare. I was assured the transformer did not contain PCB. Utilities were going through a big replacement phase at the time so I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement.

In the US manufacture of PCBs was banned in 1980. According the the EPA PCB use in transformers ended in 1977.

»www.epa.gov/reg3wcmd/ts_pcbs.htm

But your post prompted me to double check so I submitted a request to our utility.

/tom

sk1939
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reply to kherr

said by kherr:

said by leibold:

Shouldn't it get cheaper if you buy in bulk ?

Needless to say, they will have there own sub station ....

Doesn't surprise me considering HQ has it's own power generating station.

scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
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reply to pandora

From my TED5000 - I can state that the very highest peakload I've ever seen was 25KVA on my house with 200 Amp service. The vast majority of the time, we sit at about 2KW, with some of the heavier electric users peaking it up - running the electric dryer frequently spikes to 12 KW, but that is also running the electric tank water heater recovering.

So I believe the power companies know what they're doing on their sizing of transformers for residential use.


dplantz

join:2000-08-02
Roslindale, MA
reply to Draiman

Rates should be close all over NE. NSTAR and North East Utilities merged in April. Most of NE now gets its power from the different operating companies of NE Utilties